518 réponses à ce sujet

[Kevin Lynch]

Just finished watching the newest dev diary "Story" and a particular point has me curious about the dialogue options vs. what is said. At 4:16 of the vid, Hawke has three choices to speak:

This isn't helping.
You're right, but settle down.
Shut up!

The player chooses "Shut up!" and the spoken line is "I'm in charge, you do what I say."

From my perspective, the spoken line fits the least with the "Shut up!" option. I expected Hawke to actually get angry and tell his brother to shut up. Instead, it's more of a neutral (or mildly irritated) attitude. Wouldn't a dialogue option of "You do what I say" be a more obvious fit than what it currently is?

It may seem like a minor detail and a minor point in the story, and perhaps most dialogue will be more accurately reflected in the choices, but the dialogue tree choices in games have always been a pet-peeve of mine when I don't seem to be able to anticipate the writer's intention. Perhaps it's fully mitigated by the use of the icon showing what attitude the choice means, but I'd still rather have dialogue reflected appropriately in the choices.

Hoping it won't amount to much in the final tally; I've managed well enough in other games that use the abbreviated choices, although not without annoyances at times. Another reason to save often.

[Skellimancer]

This is why I am dreading the dialog wheel.



We don't know what they will actually say.

[Ziggeh]

"Shut up!" is the only option that's dismissive, and aggressive.

[Brockololly]

Yeah, this is the problem with the dialogue wheel even with the icons. Its never as clear as being able to see the full text and can lead to picking a dialogue that you maybe did not really want to select. Even with the icons, so much is left to how the voice actor delivers the line too, in terms of how you react to the line.

[Kevin Lynch]

Ziggeh wrote...

"Shut up!" is the only option that's dismissive, and aggressive.

If tone was all that's needed, then, they could just leave out the words and just use icons to represent friendly, neutral, and aggressive. After all, we'd expect the words to reflect what's said and not just represent the attitude. Otherwise, they are redundant and potentially confusing.

[Morroian]

The devs said they were going to be careful with this. The paraphrase could have been different.

[Bigdoser]

I heard the dev's said that depending on the choices you pick Hawke tone changes, I think they are still exprimenting.

[Lord Gremlin]

Yes, that part was pretty bad. A proper paraphrase would be "I'm in charge" or "Do what I say".



And here we have "Shut up", tone = aggressive/violent results in "I'm in charge, you do what I say" spoken with zero anger. Gaider, you promised you won't **** up the whole thing, yet you did...



This reminds me of ME1. More than 100 quicksave reloads due to wrong/misleading paraphrases.

[DarthCaine]

As always, I'm a big hater of paraphrasing, but devs has always said "Screw you, we like it this way and don't wanna bother making both like in Human Revolution", so there's not much point descussing this. Here's the previous thread:

http://social.biowar...index/3206226/1

Modifié par DarthCaine, 10 janvier 2011 - 11:13 .

[Chuvvy]

DarthCaine wrote...

As always, I'm a big hater of paraphrasing, but devs has always said "Screw you, we like it this way and don't wanna bother making both like in Human Revolution", so there's not much point descussing this. Here's the previous thread:

http://social.biowar...index/3206226/1

Wait they're doing both in Human Revolution? That's awesome.

[Alexia89]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

And here we have "Shut up", tone = aggressive/violent results in "I'm in charge, you do what I say" spoken with zero anger. Gaider, you promised you won't **** up the whole thing, yet you did...

I think this is an overreaction since it was only one line you saw.

[Lord Gremlin]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, this is the problem with the dialogue wheel even with the icons. Its never as clear as being able to see the full text and can lead to picking a dialogue that you maybe did not really want to select. Even with the icons, so much is left to how the voice actor delivers the line too, in terms of how you react to the line.

The real problem is that paraphrases are ****. Intentionally or not they're screwed/wrong. Take this phrase - "I'm in charge, you do what I say". What's the main idea? Yes, that Hawke is in charge and will force Carver to obey his orders. The logical paraphrase is "I'm in charge". Imageine it instead of "Shut up". Much better, right?

When you select "Shut up" you expect the phrase where it's the main idea. Like "Shut up, I'm tired of your whining" or "Shut up and just do it" or even "Shut up, you worthless idiot" or something like that - a phrase which is a rude way to tell him to shut up.

[DarthCaine]

Here's devs responses from earlier threads:

David Gaider wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

My problem isn't with the voiced protagonist, in fact I much prefer a voiced protagonist. My problem is with the paraphrasing. Full text with a voiced protagonist has worked in The Witcher, Deus Ex and most adventure games and I don't remember anyone complaining about it, so why the heck does BioWare do the stupid paraphrasing.

I want to know EXACTLY what my character will say. For example, in the scene where Carver dies, I've no idea whether the sarcastic option will make Hawke look like an insensitive jerk.

Hell, keep your crappy paraphrasing, but give us a middle ground, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution where there's both full text and paraphrasing.

Indeed, I'm interested to see how that looks when Deux Ex releases, as well as how it's received. I know some people like the idea of such a feature, but none of us really knows how it will play out in the actual game or if the Deus Ex team themselves will think it was worth the effort it took to implement.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I think full text is problematic myself. I think it's adverse to the cinematics, to read the full sentence, and then have it read slowly back to you. It's not new information, it's redundant.

That's a big part of it. There's also no surprise on replay, since you are exposed to the complete possible range of things your character can say the first time around.

To be fair, I think you can absolutely make full text choices work well if you're prepared to go a more Dues Ex route, where you pick the first part, and your character continues speaking afterwards, or continues in a "branch" of dialog along the vein you just picked.

But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 10 janvier 2011 - 11:24 .

[AlanC9]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

This isn't helping.
You're right, but settle down.
Shut up!

The player chooses "Shut up!" and the spoken line is "I'm in charge, you do what I say."

From my perspective, the spoken line fits the least with the "Shut up!" option. I expected Hawke to actually get angry and tell his brother to shut up. Instead, it's more of a neutral (or mildly irritated) attitude. Wouldn't a dialogue option of "You do what I say" be a more obvious fit than what it currently is?

Fits the least? I don't see that at all. Options one and two show some interest in his brother's concern. "Shut up" shows no interest, and neither does the spoken line.

If you want to say it's not a great paraphrase, that's a different objection.

[Kevin Lynch]

I have no problem with paraphrasing, I should point out. The problem is when the choice phrase isn't reflected in the spoken line and is something very different in tone and intent. That's different than what all those quotes DarthCaine posted above are describing.

[DarthCaine]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

I have no problem with paraphrasing, I should point out. The problem is when the choice phrase isn't reflected in the spoken line and is something very different in tone and intent.

That IS my problem with paraphrasing. Half the time what I chose and what Shepard said was completely different.
I choose "AI are dangerous", Shepard said "I HATE AI, KILL ALL AI"

Modifié par DarthCaine, 10 janvier 2011 - 11:30 .

[Soul Reaver]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

The problem is when the choice phrase isn't reflected in the spoken line and is something very different in tone and intent.

That IS the problem EVERYONE has with paraphrasing

[Snoteye]

Ziggeh wrote...

"Shut up!" is the only option that's dismissive, and aggressive.

The problem is that "shut up!" is only dismissive (and aggressive, but that's merely delivery). "I'm in charge!," say, is both dismissive and commanding. It's not a matter of the actual paraphrase being unfit but not being the best fit.

The first time I saw that scene I read the paraphrase as "help me!" Imagine my reaction.

DarthCaine wrote...

I choose "AI are dangerous", Shepard said "I HATE AI, KILL ALL AI"

My favourite is shooting Conrad.

[AlanC9]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

"Shut up!" is the only option that's dismissive, and aggressive.

If tone was all that's needed, then, they could just leave out the words and just use icons to represent friendly, neutral, and aggressive. After all, we'd expect the words to reflect what's said and not just represent the attitude. Otherwise, they are redundant and potentially confusing.

I don't think that's where Ziggeh was going with that. It isn't just that it's aggressive, it's that it's dismissive. The tone icon can't convey that.

[Merci357]

DarthCaine wrote...

Kevin Lynch wrote...

I have no problem with paraphrasing, I should point out. The problem is when the choice phrase isn't reflected in the spoken line and is something very different in tone and intent.

That IS my problem with paraphrasing. Half the time what I chose and what Shepard said was completely different.
I choose "AI are dangerous", Shepard said "I HATE AI, KILL ALL AI"

However, if there is no paraphrasing at all (like in The Witcher), it's also quite horrible to listen to the exact same line you've read already. I don't want that. Either the paraphasing needs to be more accurate, or just stick with intentional icons, similar to Alpha Protocol. Given a choice, I'd prefer better paraphasing.

[DarthCaine]

Merci357 wrote...

However, if there is no paraphrasing at all (like in The Witcher), it's also quite horrible to listen to the exact same line you've read already. I don't want that. Either the paraphasing needs to be more accurate, or just stick with intentional icons, similar to Alpha Protocol. Given a choice, I'd prefer better paraphasing.

Alpha Protocol's approach is way worse. I've no problem with no paraphrasing at all (like in The Witcher).

All I want is a middle ground. Deus Ex: Human Revolution has paraphrasing, but it also has a toggle that displays full text next to the paraphrased option

[Maera Imrov]

Snoteye wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I choose "AI are dangerous", Shepard said "I HATE AI, KILL ALL AI"

My favourite is shooting Conrad.

Mine is FemShep's "I want you, Thane." right after he'd gotten done talking about his deceased wife. I almost didn't choose it, because it seemed far too abrupt and forward given the conversational context. Thankfully what was said was more empathetic and whatnot, but yes. The paraphrasing is sometimes, very, very off and I think it detracts more than it helps.

[blothulfur]

Bloody spoiled young uns, in my day we got by on name, job and bye.

Nah i've got to admit I prefer the word for word approach myself but i'm waiting to play and if it becomes an irritation in the game and reduces my enjoyment then i'll put my name on whatever poll someone starts.

Then again a few of my mates will just skip through dialogue and cutscenes as if they're looking at pretty pictures in a colouring book, kind of sad and I should imagine deeply depressing to a writer but maybe a sign of the times.

[AlanC9]

Snoteye wrote...
The problem is that "shut up!" is only dismissive (and aggressive, but that's merely delivery). "I'm in charge!," say, is both dismissive and commanding. It's not a matter of the actual paraphrase being unfit but not being the best fit.

"Shut up" isn't commanding? It's a command. Actually, I can't think of the last time I hard someone say this ITRW who wasn't talking to an unruly child.

[In Exile]

Kevin Lynch wrote...
If tone was all that's needed, then, they could just leave out the words and just use icons to represent friendly, neutral, and aggressive. After all, we'd expect the words to reflect what's said and not just represent the attitude. Otherwise, they are redundant and potentially confusing.

That removes intent. The paraphrase is the cue to the content of the line. What Hawke says in that contex is basically the equivalent of telling someone to shut up. "I'm in charge, that's it" is another way of saying "STFU and listen to me."

I think it captures to intent very well.