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Dialogue: choices vs. spoken line


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#226
Ziggeh

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TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Genres are defined by the consensus view

That's absurd. Not only because majority rules can't change facts, but also because there's no way to get a true consensus. Go to Codex and ask them what an RPG is. Then go to GameFAQ's and ask them what an RPG is. I bet you $50 you get 2 very different answers. Just because some people are more vocal than others doesn't change that fact.

Yes, it is absurd. It's also entirely true. It's the reason genre's aren't very useful beyond helping add order to stacked shelves and such, they're certainly not a good tool to apply when you want to make the case that no true scotsman would act that way.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 11 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .


#227
Dave of Canada

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You yourself are saying rp options will be more restricted while advocating for voice overs. Why people advocate for any sort of removal of RP options in an RPG just baffles the hell out of me.


People having differing opinions baffles you?

#228
the_one_54321

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Genres in video games don't even exist anymore. Any dev will call any game any genre they want. All that matters is who they are trying to target for game sales.

#229
Lord Gremlin

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Genres in video games don't even exist anymore. Any dev will call any game any genre they want. All that matters is who they are trying to target for game sales.

Genres always exist to some extent. 

#230
Sylvius the Mad

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the_one_54321 wrote...

I can roleplay without also creating the character. The falacy in this stems from the assertion that "imprefect roleplaying does not exist." It does.

Does it?  How does it work?

How do you choose dialogue options from paraphrases?

Morroian wrote...

Genres are defined by the consensus view

Nonsense.  Nothing is defined by the consensus view.

And if what you say is true, then I want a game built to today's standards of presentation that is an RPG by the consensus view of 1989.  How's that?

#231
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You yourself are saying rp options will be more restricted while advocating for voice overs. Why people advocate for any sort of removal of RP options in an RPG just baffles the hell out of me.


People having differing opinions baffles you?


Thats not what I said Dave, encouraging removal of RPG elements from an RPG seems pretty counter intuitive doncha think? Opinion doesn't really play into it to be honest.

#232
Merci357

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Lord Gremlin wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Genres in video games don't even exist anymore. Any dev will call any game any genre they want. All that matters is who they are trying to target for game sales.

Genres always exist to some extent. 


They do exist, but just go to your local shop and look up what's in the "RPG" section. The common denominator between the games there is.... very slim, to say the least.

#233
Sylvius the Mad

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Lord Gremlin wrote...

Actually you've just nailed the main idea: paraphrasing is ok as long as Hawke actual dialogue never surprises you. And I definitely can see it working - for example if "Shut up" translates into something like "Shut up already, you idiot" you won't be surprised.

Of course you would.  You couldn't have foreseen the insult.

The only way you won't be surprised is if you could accurately write down what Hawke is going to say, word for word, based on the paraphrased option.

If you can't do that, then the paraphrase isn't providing enough information.

#234
Ziggeh

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

 Why people advocate for any sort of removal of RP options in an RPG just baffles the hell out of me.

Because they get something they want out of the deal? I want a voice because it increases my engagement with the media and I want a system that makes the intent clear while not repeating lines.

#235
the_one_54321

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I can roleplay without also creating the character. The falacy in this stems from the assertion that "imprefect roleplaying does not exist." It does.

Does it?  How does it work?

How do you choose dialogue options from paraphrases?

It works in that you do your best to make the character do what you think the character would do, but are incapable of doing so perfectly in 100% of situations. Such as if you did not create the character and not familiar enough with it, or if you actually have a mechanical limitation to your control of the character. Such things to not mean that you are not roleplaying. They mean that you are not roleplaying perfectly.

#236
Nighteye2

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Ziggeh wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Genres are defined by the consensus view

That's absurd. Not only because majority rules can't change facts, but also because there's no way to get a true consensus. Go to Codex and ask them what an RPG is. Then go to GameFAQ's and ask them what an RPG is. I bet you $50 you get 2 very different answers. Just because some people are more vocal than others doesn't change that fact.

Yes, it is absurd. It's also entirely true. It's the reason genre's aren't very useful beyond helping add order to stacked shelves and such, they're certainly not a good tool to apply when you want to make the case that no true scotsman would act that way.


So you think it would be OK to call games without role playing 'Role Playing Games' is suddenly the majority thought that a good idea?

That would be misleading, to say the least.

#237
Merci357

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And if what you say is true, then I want a game built to today's standards of presentation that is an RPG by the consensus view of 1989.  How's that?


Easy, Sylvius - that's the truth, I guess. But the chances a developer might make such a game... well, I guess you know it.

#238
Sylvius the Mad

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the_one_54321 wrote...

It works in that you do your best to make the character do what you think the character would do, but are incapable of doing so perfectly in 100% of situations. Such as if you did not create the character and not familiar enough with it, or if you actually have a mechanical limitation to your control of the character. Such things to not mean that you are not roleplaying. They mean that you are not roleplaying perfectly.

You're not answering the question.

How do you actually select the options to get the outcome you want?

The problem for me isn't just that I don't know with certainty what the PC is going to say or do, but that of the available options I'm unable to figure out which one is the one I want because the paraphrase is obfuscatory.

How do you read the paraphrases in a way that lets you know which one you want?

#239
Xewaka

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Nighteye2 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Genres are defined by the consensus view

That's absurd. Not only because majority rules can't change facts, but also because there's no way to get a true consensus. Go to Codex and ask them what an RPG is. Then go to GameFAQ's and ask them what an RPG is. I bet you $50 you get 2 very different answers. Just because some people are more vocal than others doesn't change that fact.

Yes, it is absurd. It's also entirely true. It's the reason genre's aren't very useful beyond helping add order to stacked shelves and such, they're certainly not a good tool to apply when you want to make the case that no true scotsman would act that way.

So you think it would be OK to call games without role playing 'Role Playing Games' is suddenly the majority thought that a good idea?
That would be misleading, to say the least.

Yes. As misleading as the paraphrasing.

#240
Ziggeh

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Nighteye2 wrote...

So you think it would be OK to call games without role playing 'Role Playing Games' is suddenly the majority thought that a good idea?

That would be misleading, to say the least.

It wouldn't be misleading for that majority, because whatever the good idea was would be the association they would derive, but no I don't, because I don't think "role playing games" is a very useful category to begin with.

#241
Nighteye2

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the_one_54321 wrote...
Genres in video games don't even exist anymore. Any dev will call any game any genre they want. All that matters is who they are trying to target for game sales.


Except that the name of the genre 'Role Playing Game' strongly implies that games in that genre involve the player playing an actual role. Instead of the player giving directions to the game by which the game plays the role in the player's stead.

#242
Sylvius the Mad

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Ziggeh wrote...

 I want a system that makes the intent clear

I want that, too.

I haven't seen one yet that uses paraphrases.

#243
Urazz

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Kevin Lynch wrote...

Just finished watching the newest dev diary "Story" and a particular point has me curious about the dialogue options vs. what is said. At 4:16 of the vid, Hawke has three choices to speak:

This isn't helping.
You're right, but settle down.
Shut up!

The player chooses "Shut up!" and the spoken line is "I'm in charge, you do what I say."

From my perspective, the spoken line fits the least with the "Shut up!" option. I expected Hawke to actually get angry and tell his brother to shut up. Instead, it's more of a neutral (or mildly irritated) attitude. Wouldn't a dialogue option of "You do what I say" be a more obvious fit than what it currently is?

It may seem like a minor detail and a minor point in the story, and perhaps most dialogue will be more accurately reflected in the choices, but the dialogue tree choices in games have always been a pet-peeve of mine when I don't seem to be able to anticipate the writer's intention. Perhaps it's fully mitigated by the use of the icon showing what attitude the choice means, but I'd still rather have dialogue reflected appropriately in the choices.

Hoping it won't amount to much in the final tally; I've managed well enough in other games that use the abbreviated choices, although not without annoyances at times. Another reason to save often.


I dunno, I thought the example you picked and what was said was chosen pretty well and Hawke sounded angry enough and did basically tell him to shut up.  Sure it could've been labeled a bit better but I thought the gist of it and the icon was enough to show what was going to be said.

What were expecting a big angry rage and yell at Carver, your character's brother, to shut up?  Truth is we don't know the situation, Carver's personality, etc.  As long as I don't mispick something because I thought it meant something else, I'm fine.

If you didn't like how it was said then that's a voice actor problem then.

Nighteye2 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Genres in video games don't even exist anymore. Any dev will call any game any genre they want. All that matters is who they are trying to target for game sales.


Except that the name of the genre 'Role Playing Game' strongly implies that games in that genre involve the player playing an actual role. Instead of the player giving directions to the game by which the game plays the role in the player's stead.


Problem is that you can't have all the choices you want anymore.  It's too expensive and time consuming to get the kind of expansive role playing game hardcore rpgers want nowadays.  Essentially if they want that kind of game, then play D&D or some other paper and pen RPG where you and your friends create the adventure and control how iit goes.  Video games nowadays are supposed to entertain the majority and still make a profit at it.

Modifié par Urazz, 11 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .


#244
the_one_54321

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're not answering the question.

How do you actually select the options to get the outcome you want?

It doesn't matter. If it's not imperfec that doesn't mean that it's not roleplaying. It doesn't need to be perfect roleplaying in order to be roleplaying.

#245
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're not answering the question.

How do you actually select the options to get the outcome you want?

It doesn't matter. If it's not imperfec that doesn't mean that it's not roleplaying. It doesn't need to be perfect roleplaying in order to be roleplaying.


Guessing at half the stuff you're character is going to say isn't role playing either. Its actually completely counter intuitive to it.

#246
Ziggeh

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

 I want a system that makes the intent clear

I want that, too.

I haven't seen one yet that uses paraphrases.

Not sure I've ever seen a system I'm entirely happy with.

#247
AlanC9

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Nighteye2 wrote...

So you think it would be OK to call games without role playing 'Role Playing Games' is suddenly the majority thought that a good idea?

That would be misleading, to say the least.



If the majority agreed with using RPG that way, who would the dev be misleading?

#248
Morroian

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Nighteye2 wrote...

Except they're not restricting role playing options, they're taking them away.

Restricting role playing options was what DA:O did: you could pick exactly what you wanted your warden to say, with the only restriction that you had to pick from a predefined list of options.

By that definition every crpg is restricted.

Nighteye2 wrote...

DA2 no longer gives you that choice, instead asking for a general direction and then playing the role for you.

When the game itself is doing the role playing, instead of the player, it's no longer an RPG. How can it be a role playing game if the player is no longer able to play a role, being limited to giving only vague directions and hoping the character will do what the player expects?

Mileage varies, IMHO I'm still defining the character and role playing Hawke in the way I want him/her to be. Being able to choose the exact line of dialogue isn't the only thing that defines a character.  Actions, intent and choosing what I want to say in a more general sense still enables me to define the character.

#249
Nighteye2

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Ziggeh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
 I want a system that makes the intent clear

I want that, too.

I haven't seen one yet that uses paraphrases.

Not sure I've ever seen a system I'm entirely happy with.

The Witcher 2 comes closest, from what I've seen. It gives a few phrases full-text, from which the conversation bounces to and fro between Geralt and the other characters a few times. You fully get to choose the first response, but not the few that follow naturally after it.

The effect looked acceptable in the videos I've seen, although it's still a compromise.

#250
Sylvius the Mad

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the_one_54321 wrote...

It doesn't matter.

Of course it matters.  It's the core of your position.

If it's not imperfec that doesn't mean that it's not roleplaying. It doesn't need to be perfect roleplaying in order to be roleplaying.

I'm not disputing that right now.  I'm asking you for help.

How do you read the paraphrases such that you can tell which one produces the line you want the PC to deliver?