518 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

vallore wrote...
Clarity - Assuming the role of a paraphrase is to be a clear indication of what actually is to be said, this particular paraphrase lacks enough clarity not to lead a significant number of people astray about what to expect. In this it failed, regardless of anyone being able to establish a correlation between it and what actually was said or not. 

As for why, a particular paraphrase fails to some and not others, it could be for various reasons; I would point, for instance, that, the level of deviation we consider acceptable between the implied message and the actual message is something that is entirely dependent of individual standards. The issue with a paraphrase may therefore be that deviated too much from what a person or group expected, regardless of others being able to still find a correlation.

In this I see a weakness inherent to the paraphrase system, as it introduces an unnecessary level of subjectivity in the dialogue system.

That's part of it, yeah. But there also seems to be issues with some people being much worse than others at predicting what the spoken line will be. the_one_54321 was talking about this earliers, but he doesn't understand it any more than I do.

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
Sure. I'm curious about how the problem comes up -- I'm not trying to deny that people are having one.
More specifically, I'm curious why some people have problems and other people do not. It isn't random.
Some people want to be role playing when playing a role playing game. Other people see the game more like a book, and care more about the story than about any role playing aspects.

Maybe so. But since I'm not one of those people and still the wheel doesn't bother me, this doesn't answer my question.

How can you appropiately play a character when you do not know how will he express himself? I'm reffering to content, not intent. I cannot play a character without knowing the content of his expressions. How can you? This is an honest question, to see if we can answer yours.

Maybe this is what vallore meant. I think that I know Shepard's content just fine.

Xewaka wrote...

Well, I heard "you do".
It still isn't the phrase I'd associate with the paraphrase.

Actually, he does say "you do," but there's no real difference in this context anyway.

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...
Maybe this is what vallore meant. I think that I know Shepard's content just fine.

Well, I know that I don't.

[Ziggeh]

Xewaka wrote...

How can you appropiately play a character when you do not know how will he express himself? I'm reffering to content, not intent. I cannot play a character without knowing the content of his
expressions. How can you?

I use words to express intent, when I'm talking to someone the exact phrasing is rarely important provided they understood the message, and I see the game system the same way.

[Xewaka]

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

How can you appropiately play a character when you do not know how will he express himself? I'm reffering to content, not intent. I cannot play a character without knowing the content of his
expressions. How can you?

I use words to express intent, when I'm talking to someone the exact phrasing is rarely important provided they understood the message, and I see the game system the same way.

Tone and stance carries intent. Words express content.
And it must be because I'm a chemist and it requires absurd amounts of precision, but exact phrasing is extremely important for ease of understanding.

Modifié par Xewaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:02 .

[Ziggeh]

Xewaka wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
 In this case, since "Shut up!" does not content command, I might consider choosing "Now is not the time", as it approaches the sense of urgency I'm seeking.

I suspect this argument is taking on a particularly circular shape, but I would say that "shut up" is quite literally a command, and so does/could indeed imply authority.

Shut up is a command. The speech Hawke delivers when choosing it is not. That is the problem.

Hmm. I may have misunderstood your post then. "content command" wasn't suggesting it implied authority?

[Ziggeh]

Xewaka wrote...
Words express content.

Right, but the content isn't the specific set of words, rather the information you're attempting to relay.

[Xewaka]

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
 In this case, since "Shut up!" does not content command, I might consider choosing "Now is not the time", as it approaches the sense of urgency I'm seeking.

I suspect this argument is taking on a particularly circular shape, but I would say that "shut up" is quite literally a command, and so does/could indeed imply authority.

Shut up is a command. The speech Hawke delivers when choosing it is not. That is the problem.

Hmm. I may have misunderstood your post then. "content command" wasn't suggesting it implied authority?

What I meant is that, the phrase which results from choosing "shut up!" - that is: "I'm in command. You do as I say." - does not actually command Carver to shut up. Yes, I understand the threat of authority. But a simple "Now be quiet" after the "You do as I say" would actually give the spoken phrase the commanding content expected from the "shut up" option.
I want accurary for my choice. Having my choice resulting in something that might sort of express the general gist of an idea close to it but without actually doing what I chose means I'm not really choosing anything.

[Time Victim]

I just hope I don't come across a situation where I choose something a long the lines of "Stop talking" and my character decides to kill somebody. It's one way to shut somebody up but I'd probably regret it later.

[Ziggeh]

Xewaka wrote...
I want accurary for my choice. Having my choice resulting in something that might sort of express the general gist of an idea close to it but without actually doing what I chose means I'm not really choosing anything.

Sure you would, you'd be choosing the general gist.

[Xewaka]

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I want accurary for my choice. Having my choice resulting in something that might sort of express the general gist of an idea close to it but without actually doing what I chose means I'm not really choosing anything.

Sure you would, you'd be choosing the general gist.

And how is that an accurate choice?

[maxernst]

Xewaka wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

How can you appropiately play a character when you do not know how will he express himself? I'm reffering to content, not intent. I cannot play a character without knowing the content of his
expressions. How can you?

I use words to express intent, when I'm talking to someone the exact phrasing is rarely important provided they understood the message, and I see the game system the same way.

Tone and stance carries intent. Words express content.
And it must be because I'm a chemist and it requires absurd amounts of precision, but exact phrasing is extremely important for ease of understanding.

Hmm...that's interesting.  I'm also a scientist (geologist) and I agree with you about the exact phrasing and word choice being very important.  I wonder whether people who tend toward more abstract thinking are more sensitive to language and less sensitive to non-verbal cues. I know when I used to play on an NWN2 server that I felt one of my weaknesses relative to other roleplayers was that I was much less skilled at describing body language to express emotion and relied more heavily on my dialogue, and I suspect that it's because I'm not particularly observant of body language in real life.

Modifié par maxernst, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:36 .

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I want accurary for my choice. Having my choice resulting in something that might sort of express the general gist of an idea close to it but without actually doing what I chose means I'm not really choosing anything.

Sure you would, you'd be choosing the general gist.

And how is that an accurate choice?

I'm still confused about why accuracy is necessary. Unless one of the prewritten lines was a perfect match for your intention, you couldn't have accuracy in DAO either.

[Malanek]

AlanC9 wrote...
That's part of it, yeah. But there also seems to be issues with some people being much worse than others at predicting what the spoken line will be. the_one_54321 was talking about this earliers, but he doesn't understand it any more than I do.

You up for a little test Alan?

The other paraphrases other than shut up are...

"This isn't helping."
"You're right, but settle down."

What do you think Hawkes line will be with each of these? I have no idea whether the answer will be unexpected or not but we can see how close you get when the game comes out. Or earlier if a dev wants to help out with this experiment.

And also the paraphrases to Merill after she says "Yes it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?". The paraphrases are...
"It did help us"
"They don't keep helping"
"The demon, you mean"

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm still confused about why accuracy is necessary. Unless one of the prewritten lines was a perfect match for your intention, you couldn't have accuracy in DAO either.

You misunderstand. I don't want an specific choice to fit exactly what I want my character to say. I want to know exactly what will my character say on each option so I can best approximate my ideal choice. A paraphrase system does not allow me to do that. Since the paraphrase content and the phrase content have nothing to do with each other (I will try to dig up the reference where Gaider - I think - mention that one of the rules for writing paraphrases was that the paraphrase should never be in the spoken line) I am effectively choosing blindly, as I don't know which option approaches the phrasing that better fits my ideal choice. Again, I'm reffering content, not intent.

[Piecake]

Malanek999 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's part of it, yeah. But there also seems to be issues with some people being much worse than others at predicting what the spoken line will be. the_one_54321 was talking about this earliers, but he doesn't understand it any more than I do.

You up for a little test Alan?

The other paraphrases other than shut up are...

"This isn't helping."
"You're right, but settle down."

What do you think Hawkes line will be with each of these? I have no idea whether the answer will be unexpected or not but we can see how close you get when the game comes out. Or earlier if a dev wants to help out with this experiment.

And also the paraphrases to Merill after she says "Yes it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?". The paraphrases are...
"It did help us"
"They don't keep helping"
"The demon, you mean"

I really dont see the point in this because these paraphrases were created with the tone icons.  You cant seperate the two.  And your contest just seems silly because the goal with the system is to get the meaning and intent accross, not let you know what the character is exactly going to say.  You can express your thoughts in a lot of different ways, but still retain the same meaning. 

[AlanC9]

Malanek999 wrote...

You up for a little test Alan?

The other paraphrases other than shut up are...

"This isn't helping."
"You're right, but settle down."

What do you think Hawkes line will be with each of these? I have no idea whether the answer will be unexpected or not but we can see how close you get when the game comes out. Or earlier if a dev wants to help out with this experiment.

And also the paraphrases to Merill after she says "Yes it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?". The paraphrases are...
"It did help us"
"They don't keep helping"
"The demon, you mean"

I'm game. But what's the criterion for success? Do I have to guess the exact phrasing? As Piecake says, that isn't the point.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:52 .

[Malanek]

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm still confused about why accuracy is necessary. Unless one of the prewritten lines was a perfect match for your intention, you couldn't have accuracy in DAO either.

Accuracy is important for a couple of reasons. What you say implies a personality onto your character, with full dialogue you might not always be able to say what you want but you can usually avoid saying what you don't want. For example in ME2, the Charm option of "Leave the Quarian alone" comes out as something like"how about you and I make a deal. You leave the quarian alone and I won't break your arms and legs. Then there is detailed information you may want or not want to reveal. Having yourself draw attention to the fact you are with Cerberus about a dozen times in ME2 is a good example of this. Many people care what they say, the difference of a few words can be a big freaking difference. The paraphrasing approach can at times be very frustrating.

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm still confused about why accuracy is necessary. Unless one of the prewritten lines was a perfect match for your intention, you couldn't have accuracy in DAO either.

You misunderstand. I don't want an specific choice to fit exactly what I want my character to say. I want to know exactly what will my character say on each option so I can best approximate my ideal choice. A paraphrase system does not allow me to do that. Since the paraphrase content and the phrase content have nothing to do with each other (I will try to dig up the reference where Gaider - I think - mention that one of the rules for writing paraphrases was that the paraphrase should never be in the spoken line) I am effectively choosing blindly, as I don't know which option approaches the phrasing that better fits my ideal choice. Again, I'm reffering content, not intent.

But  you haven't shown a case where the indeterminacy of the paraphrase system led you to give an option that wasn't the best one available. Can you think of a case where you would have preferred one of the other options if you had actually known all of the texts beforehand? Remember, you were wrong about the paraphrases in the OP's example.

[Malanek]

AlanC9 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

You up for a little test Alan?

The other paraphrases other than shut up are...

"This isn't helping."
"You're right, but settle down."

What do you think Hawkes line will be with each of these? I have no idea whether the answer will be unexpected or not but we can see how close you get when the game comes out. Or earlier if a dev wants to help out with this experiment.

And also the paraphrases to Merill after she says "Yes it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?". The paraphrases are...
"It did help us"
"They don't keep helping"
"The demon, you mean"

I'm game. But what's the criterion for success? Do I have to guess the exact phrasing? As Piecake says, that isn't the point.

It's not really a success/fail exercise. Just try and get as close as possible, I am guessing you will end up missing something somewhere because my experience with the dialogue wheel is they often add something you don't expect. If you want to assume what tones are used go ahead ie "You're right but settle down" is likely to be diplomatic. But it could be neutral. Write one for each, I am curious to see how different you think they may be.

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...
But  you haven't shown a case where the indeterminacy of the paraphrase system led you to give an option that wasn't the best one available. Can you think of a case where you would have preferred one of the other options if you had actually known all of the texts beforehand? Remember, you were wrong about the paraphrases in the OP's example.

The whole Horizon conversation. Which option allows me to dodge mentioning Cerberus? Is there even an option for doing that? I haven't found out yet.
In Zaeed's DLC, choosing twice the paragon response after he does his thing at the entrance results in a *Shepard pawnch!*. I'd rather not clock companions in the jaw.

Modifié par Xewaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 02:01 .

[Meltemph]

I've never had any major issues with doing it either way. The only thing I don't like is a VO protagonist and the line verbatim in tex pre-selection, makes the VO get old quicker that way.

[AlanC9]

Malanek999 wrote...
Accuracy is important for a couple of reasons. What you say implies a personality onto your character, with full dialogue you might not always be able to say what you want but you can usually avoid saying what you don't want. For example in ME2, the Charm option of "Leave the Quarian alone" comes out as something like"how about you and I make a deal. You leave the quarian alone and I won't break your arms and legs. Then there is detailed information you may want or not want to reveal. Having yourself draw attention to the fact you are with Cerberus about a dozen times in ME2 is a good example of this. Many people care what they say, the difference of a few words can be a big freaking difference. The paraphrasing approach can at times be very frustrating.

Which Charm option was that?

I see your point about revealing information -- to a limited extent, since we both know that revealing such information won't actually be noticed by any NPC. However, that problem would still be there in DAO; you can't choose to avoid revealing that information and still get the rest of the dialog option's effects, so if the line you otherwise wanted revealed that information  you're SOL anyway, though you do get more choice in what flavor of suck you want.

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...
Which Charm option was that?
I see your point about revealing information -- to a limited extent, since we both know that revealing such information won't actually be noticed by any NPC. However, that problem would still be there in DAO; you can't choose to avoid revealing that information and still get the rest of the dialog option's effects, so if the line you otherwise wanted revealed that information  you're SOL anyway, though you do get more choice in what flavor of suck you want.

I'd rather compromise knowingly. At least that way I know what will be revealed and what not.

[Merci357]

maxernst wrote...
Hmm...that's interesting.  I'm also a scientist (geologist) and I agree with you about the exact phrasing and word choice being very important.  I wonder whether people who tend toward more abstract thinking are more sensitive to language and less sensitive to non-verbal cues. I know when I used to play on an NWN2 server that I felt one of my weaknesses relative to other roleplayers was that I was much less skilled at describing body language to express emotion and relied more heavily on my dialogue, and I suspect that it's because I'm not particularly observant of body language in real life.

What you are talking about are social skills, non verbal communication is a part of this. Even spoken language isn't as simple as that, due to rhythm, stress and intonation (paralanguage) a single word can have multiple meanings. I guess the later is part of my preference of paraphrasing coupled with intent icons. The intent makes it clear what will happen, maybe not what is said, but how it is said. A full transscript with a silent PC simple misses any indication of this paralanguage, and is prone to wrong NPC reactions as well, as seen in DA:O.