518 réponses à ce sujet

[Utoryo]

David, as someone who genuinely enjoys both going with the flow of the game (playing as myself) and micromanaging or metagaming their responses (did so on my first and second DA:O playthroughs respectively), I actually agree with you.

But I still think that in theory Deus Ex 3's system (or something like it) is by far the best of both worlds. I think a lot of us would love to have your thoughts about whether it would be appropriate for DA3 when DX3 is out (too bad that's been delayed so much)

Heck, in theory the data is already there through subtitles, so if there's a DA2 expansion it'd be pretty cool to consider implementing that in there and adding it as an option to the original DA2 campaign at the same time. I know that sometimes there will be short back-and-forths so you can't do it completely without spoiling the other's reaction, but simply indicating that there will be a back-and-forth should be enough.

Modifié par Utoryo, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:00 .

[wyvernix]

Oh, I have no problem with voiced dialogue. But would you really cut down on diversity and variety in character development just for the sake of a voiced RPG protagonist? When you're only given three options for dialogue( Oh...unless you're doing a Paragon/Renegade thing for this game as well...), it doesn't leave much room for development. I'd personally choose well written text that leads to a multitude of story outcomes and situations over simplified paraphased voice-overs which have little impact on how situations are resolved overall. But thats just me...

[Pedonecrophile]

Well, same like ME

Dragon Effect II.

[Kimarous]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

*snip*

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today....

Disregarding legit reasoning as being overtired! I feel so compelled to back you!

[CarlSpackler]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I think you're confused. I wasn't assaulting the system implemented in DA2, I was assaulting the very nature of paraphrasing.

I also find it inappropriate on this subject to say "We haven't played it yet" when we have played something very similar, by many a previewers own words, Mass Effect.

Sorry, but you're confused. The only thing that somebody playing DA2's implementation of the dialogue system will help is with their feedback. If your feedback is "the very nature of paraphrasing" because you personally see no value in it (or in voiced dialogue, I assume), then that's grand-- but utterly useless to us. If you don't care about being useful, that's fine, but we're hardly going to cater to someone who wants something fundamentally different than what we're making. Sorry.

But would you care to specify some things that paraphrasing does stronger? I'm curious as to the merits you place on it.

Yeah... no, I'm not going to get into an argument about it, especially in a thread where everyone's mind is already made up and now they're just going to make sweeping declarations about it. Feel free to carry on with your discussion, however.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today....

Was kind of thinking the same thing reading down through the forum.  Maybe I missed something but David seems kind of cranky.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

To be fair it probably is "Crunch Time" so maybe he's been overworked lately.

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:01 .

[David Gaider]

CarlSpackler wrote...
Was kind of thinking the same thing reading down through the forum.  Maybe I missed something but David seems kind of cranky.

I'm not cranky at all. I've said my piece-- and there's no real interest in a discussion here, so no reason to continue discussing it in such a toxic thread. If people wish to keep talking about it themselves, however, they're free to do so. Simply keep it civil, please.

[Lord Gremlin]

I love how Mr. Gaider is dodging the issue. It's easy to comment on hating paraphrase in general, but the real issue, as we discussed on the first 2 pages, is that paraphrases seem to be done badly or are intentionally confusing.

Look, I've reloaded quicksaves in Mass Effect on PC, that was totally fine. But I'm going to play DA2 on PS3 and reloading saves after each major dialogue can be a huge pain in the ass...

[Xewaka]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
Holy crap that's like the maddest I've sen anyone on the dev team get. Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this?

I'd say it's more frustration than anger. I'd say his unwillingness to dive in a deeper debate about the dialogue system's advantages and disadvantages has something to do with internal NDA, as he cannot go into a full review of the system without spoiling its full integration.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Xewaka wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
Holy crap that's like the maddest I've sen anyone on the dev team get. Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this?

I'd say it's more frustration than anger. I'd say his unwillingness to dive in a deeper debate about the dialogue system's advantages and disadvantages has something to do with internal NDA, as he cannot go into a full review of the system without spoiling its full integration.

Nah as he just said that's why I edited my post. I can see why he'd not want to post at this point as it'd be like walking into the lions den.

[Xewaka]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
Holy crap that's like the maddest I've sen anyone on the dev team get. Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this?

I'd say it's more frustration than anger. I'd say his unwillingness to dive in a deeper debate about the dialogue system's advantages and disadvantages has something to do with internal NDA, as he cannot go into a full review of the system without spoiling its full integration.

Nah as he just said that's why I edited my post. I can see why he'd not want to post at this point as it'd be like walking into the lions den.

At least we're polite lions.

[s0meguy6665]

David Gaider wrote...

CarlSpackler wrote...
Was kind of thinking the same thing reading down through the forum.  Maybe I missed something but David seems kind of cranky.

I'm not cranky at all. I've said my piece-- and there's no real interest in a discussion here, so no reason to continue discussing it in such a toxic thread. If people wish to keep talking about it themselves, however, they're free to do so. Simply keep it civil, please.

Guess why it's "toxic". Because people are pissed off that this crappy system is being implemented and there is nothing we can do about it.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:14 .

[Nighteye2]

DavidSims wrote...

The reason the paraphrase doesn’t exactly match the spoken line, or use exact words that are in the spoken line, is that we don’t want it to be redundant with the spoken line. More than just not be redundant though, a good paraphrase will flow naturally into the spoken line, so when the player reads one then hears the other they blend into a single phrase.

If you find yourself troubled by a disconnect between the paraphrase and the spoken line, try imagining that Hawke is actually saying both, and we’re just cutting past the paraphrase because you’ve already heard it. I think you’ll find the way the NPCs react is consistent with this approach. At least that’s been my experience.

Like the origins system where some people found the lack of PC VO very jarring in the previews but much less so while playing because they filled the gaps with what they read, the DA2 experience isn’t perfectly replicated by watching videos. Reading and selecting a paraphrase is an important part of experiencing the conversation.

I find the lack of full-text frustrating - especially if the paraphrases are so inaccurate. It may work reasonably well with the option the player end up selecting, but it's impossible to make a proper choice of how Hawke response based on only those paraphrases - because I don't know what I'm not choosing. I don't even know for certain which responsible I AM choosing, until I hear the result afterwards.

It gives me the feeling of not being in control of my own player character.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Xewaka wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
Holy crap that's like the maddest I've sen anyone on the dev team get. Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this?

I'd say it's more frustration than anger. I'd say his unwillingness to dive in a deeper debate about the dialogue system's advantages and disadvantages has something to do with internal NDA, as he cannot go into a full review of the system without spoiling its full integration.

Nah as he just said that's why I edited my post. I can see why he'd not want to post at this point as it'd be like walking into the lions den.

At least we're polite lions.

Some of us are.

[Kimarous]

Everyone keeps complaining that they can't trust the paraphrase and that it might say something completely against their personal intent. Well, how about all the times in Origins when a blatantly laid out conversation option gets taken completely the wrong way by the other person? How is that any more flawed than this dialogue wheel option (and "I'm self-entitled" doesn't count)?

[Xewaka]

Kimarous wrote...
Everyone keeps complaining that they can't trust the paraphrase and that it might say something completely against their personal intent. Well, how about all the times in Origins when a blatantly laid out conversation option gets taken completely the wrong way by the other person? How is that any more flawed than this dialogue wheel option (and "I'm self-entitled" doesn't count)?

Misunderstandings happen. I'd rather have my informed choice be taken the wrong way than lacking information on my choice. The second will lead to a much higher amount of misunderstandings, but this time between the player and its character, rather than between characters.

[s0meguy6665]

Kimarous wrote...

Everyone keeps complaining that they can't trust the paraphrase and that it might say something completely against their personal intent. Well, how about all the times in Origins when a blatantly laid out conversation option gets taken completely the wrong way by the other person? How is that any more flawed than this dialogue wheel option (and "I'm self-entitled" doesn't count)?

That's rare in DAO - and it's far better than the player character - which is supposed to be an extension of the player - saying stuff we don't want him/her to.

[Alodar]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I love how Mr. Gaider is dodging the issue. It's easy to comment on hating paraphrase in general, but the real issue, as we discussed on the first 2 pages, is that paraphrases seem to be done badly or are intentionally confusing.
Look, I've reloaded quicksaves in Mass Effect on PC, that was totally fine. But I'm going to play DA2 on PS3 and reloading saves after each major dialogue can be a huge pain in the ass...

David isn't dodging any issue.

This has been discussed many times, in many threads, by many of the same people in this thread.
Repeating himself would be futile.

BioWare has improved the paraphrase system by giving intent icons. Now you know the tone of what your character is about to say.

There are many instances in DA2 when you have more than three choices, and although people like to imply otherwise there were plenty of instances in DAO where you only had three lines of dialogue to choose from.

Personally, I really enjoy the strengths of a silent protagonist, however I am looking forward to BioWare's new system.

I'm going to take the plunge and turn off subtitles and try to experience the game instead of just playing it.

Alodar

[Sylvius the Mad]

Kimarous wrote...

Everyone keeps complaining that they can't trust the paraphrase and that it might say something completely against their personal intent. Well, how about all the times in Origins when a blatantly laid out conversation option gets taken completely the wrong way by the other person?

That's completely different.  In that case, the PC still did what the player wanted.  That's what matters.

In DAO, when you choose a line, the PC never then says something completely different that you're not expecting.  The PC never does things you specifically want him not to do even though you ostensibly chose the action.

But in ME, that happens all the time.  The question is, will that be true in DA2?  Will Hawke's words or actions ever surprise the player?

I maintain that if the player is rolepaying then his character cannot surprise him.  If the character ever does surprise the player, that means the player wasn't in control, and thus wasn't actually playing the role.

Based on my experience in ME and ME2, I have no idea how to roleplay a character using the paraphrase system.  If I have similar problems in DA2, I will come here and ask the developers for help.  I'll use specific examples from their game.  If there's a way to roleplay a character in DA2, surely they know what that way is.

So I'll ask.

[Malanek]

Alodar wrote...
I'm going to take the plunge and turn off subtitles and try to experience the game instead of just playing it.

I might try this. In ME2 I always read the line well before it was finished being spoken. Perhaps doing that might change my perception of it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.

And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

[magicwins]

I always make a first run of the game with nothing changed. No subtitles, default character, standard origin, what have you, just to get an idea of what the developers would like us to see for starters. I guess I'll just have to do that and see how it goes.

Why don't we lay off the hate for a bit, huh? Doesn't do us any good, and inflicting it on others, whether rationally justified or not, is upsetting for everyone. The system's coming, whether we like it or not. They knew the pitfalls of ME2's system before they implemented this one. Let's just give them a chance to show us their version of the mechanic.

Modifié par magicwins, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:27 .

[mr_luga]

David Gaider wrote...

CarlSpackler wrote...
Was kind of thinking the same thing reading down through the forum.  Maybe I missed something but David seems kind of cranky.

I'm not cranky at all. I've said my piece-- and there's no real interest in a discussion here, so no reason to continue discussing it in such a toxic thread. If people wish to keep talking about it themselves, however, they're free to do so. Simply keep it civil, please.

Honestly all I want, is to know that you guys will just look into diffrent ways of doing it. :-) Maybe checking how Deus ex will work having BOTH there to satisfy everyone, or dreamfall, which , when you hover over a paraphrase, gets an extra line that adds on a bit more on it( without acually spoiling what she will say)

[bsbcaer]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

In the example we watch in the video, I know I would choose the line "Shut up!" to have Carver cease his whining, but without trying to dominate him. What Hawke gives instead is practically a "fall in line" speech. My Hawke would end up an imposing personality instead of someone who has no time for Carver's (or anyone else's) unfair lack of empathy, and I would hate that and simply press F9 as soon as the conversation ended.

Still going through the thread, but wanted to address this point here...In part, this is what the "intent" icons are for.  The aggressive icon (which is shown in the dev video during the snippet of speech we're talking about) should indicate to you that you are going to be acting aggressively towards icon, which should indicate that you would try to dominate him or put him into place.  If the "shut up" had the neutral/sarcastic or benevolent (for lack of a better term) icon, then you probably would be right in thinking what you originally thought.  You have to take into consideration both the paraphrase and the intent icon, if you choose to ignore one or the other, you're making it more, rather than less, difficult on yourself...

[Nighteye2]

Kimarous wrote...
Everyone keeps complaining that they
can't trust the paraphrase and that it might say something completely
against their personal intent. Well, how about all the times in Origins
when a blatantly laid out conversation option gets taken completely the
wrong way by the other person? How is that any more flawed than this
dialogue wheel option (and "I'm self-entitled" doesn't count)?

All the 0 times? I cannot remember anything like that happening to me in DA:O, ever. And even if it did happen, it would be a misunderstanding - but at least my PC would have said exactly what I expected my PC to say when picking the dialogue option.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The question is, will that be true in DA2?  Will Hawke's words or actions ever surprise the player?

We already know: they will. The example is right there, glaringly obvious in the latest video, where the paraphrase 'shut up' surprisingly leads to a statement of 'I'm in charge'. I didn't expect that, when seeing the 'shut up' option being selected.

I'll be playing DA2, but I already know Hawke won't ever feel like my own character - I'll simply have too little control over how Hawke acts for me to feel that way. While I have several Wardens in DA:O that do feel like my characters.