518 réponses à ce sujet

[Alodar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.
And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

Which is probably why you will probably never enjoy the paraphrase system.
Kind of like watching a 3D movie with your eyes closed.


Alodar

[Victia]

My only concern with paraphrase is my experiance with me and me2, in that I would often pick a dialogue option but once the spoken line was said I often found myself saying 'no don't say that, that's not what I wanted'.



It wasn't a game breaker for me just a tad frustrating! But Da2 is not me and I have faith in the devs so will wait and see how it turns out. But from what i have seen looks amazing!

[Alodar]

Nighteye2 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The question is, will that be true in DA2?  Will Hawke's words or actions ever surprise the player?

We already know: they will. The example is right there, glaringly obvious in the latest video, where the paraphrase 'shut up' surprisingly leads to a statement of 'I'm in charge'. I didn't expect that, when seeing the 'shut up' option being selected.

I'll be playing DA2, but I already know Hawke won't ever feel like my own character - I'll simply have too little control over how Hawke acts for me to feel that way. While I have several Wardens in DA:O that do feel like my characters.

Since you've already detached yourself from the process that's a bit a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?


Alodar

[Xewaka]

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.
And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

Which is probably why you will probably never enjoy the paraphrase system.
Kind of like watching a 3D movie with your eyes closed.
Alodar

Expanding on your analogue, paraphrasing is just gimmicky eye candy to have people go "aaah" so hopefully they don't notice the lacking narrative, right?

Alodar wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The question is, will that be true in DA2?  Will Hawke's words or actions ever surprise the player?

We already know: they will. The example is right there, glaringly obvious in the latest video, where the paraphrase 'shut up' surprisingly leads to a statement of 'I'm in charge'. I didn't expect that, when seeing the'shut up' option being selected.
I'll be playing DA2, but I already know Hawke won't ever feel like my own character - I'll simply have too little control over how Hawke acts for me to feel that way. While I have several Wardens in DA:O that do feel like my characters.

Since you've already detached yourself from the process that's a bit a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?
Alodar ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

The paraphrase adds another layer of separation between the player and the character. Layers of separation increasing detachment? Who could have though?

Modifié par Xewaka, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:57 .

[Malanek]

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

[Sith Grey Warden]

And this is why the silent protagonist is so great.

[Alodar]

Xewaka wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.
And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

Which is probably why you will probably never enjoy the paraphrase system.
Kind of like watching a 3D movie with your eyes closed.
Alodar

Expanding on your analogue, paraphrasing is just gimmicky eye candy to have people go "aaah" so hopefully they don't notice the lacking narrative, right?

That wouldn't be expanding. That would be creating a self serving straw man argument.

Alodar wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The question is, will that be true in DA2?  Will Hawke's words or actions ever surprise the player?

We already know: they will. The example is right there, glaringly obvious in the latest video, where the paraphrase 'shut up' surprisingly leads to a statement of 'I'm in charge'. I didn't expect that, when seeing the'shut up' option being selected.
I'll be playing DA2, but I already know Hawke won't ever feel like my own character - I'll simply have too little control over how Hawke acts for me to feel that way. While I have several Wardens in DA:O that do feel like my characters.

Since you've already detached yourself from the process that's a bit a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think?
Alodar

The paraphrase adds another layer of separation between the player and the character. Layers of separation increasing detachment? Who could have though?

There are those that believe a silent protagonist adds a layer of separation as well. I suppose it depends on your preconceived notions. 

Preconceived notions causing rhetoric and sloppy logic.

Whodathunkit?

Alodar

Modifié par Alodar, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:08 .

[nightcobra]

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

i think it can depend on the context of their previous part in the conversation, say for example that your brother says that he has had it with you and is stepping up to challenge your authority before he says the line he says in the video, to me it's like that. without context it's difficult to judge if it's good or not, i'd need to know the rest of the conversation prior to that point to make a sensible judgement.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:09 .

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

Do we have full context for that one line of dialoge?  If we don't; then he only has a partial point.

Ninja'd:ph34r:

Modifié par Shiro_the_Gambler, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:10 .

[Alodar]

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

"Shut up!" would be the paraphrase, not the other way around.

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.


Alodar

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nighteye2 wrote...

We already know: they will. The example is right there, glaringly obvious in the latest video, where the paraphrase 'shut up' surprisingly leads to a statement of 'I'm in charge'. I didn't expect that, when seeing the 'shut up' option being selected.

I'll be playing DA2, but I already know Hawke won't ever feel like my own character - I'll simply have too little control over how Hawke acts for me to feel that way. While I have several Wardens in DA:O that do feel like my characters.

I'm going to give Hawke every chance I can.

I'll play (the first time) with a character that I know works in BioWare games, a character I first designed when I was quite young and is a fairly traditional fantasy hero archetype.  If DA2 works for him, then DA2 will not have failed completely.

I had been planning to test DA2's limits with some characters that worked in DAO but they were strange enough designs I didn't really expect them to work.  That they did work makes DAO a very, very good game in my eyes, but it wouldn't be fair to test DA2 with such extreme characters when I haven't yet seen its capabilities.  Even those extreme characters were designed for DAO after I'd already played the game some, so I had some idea about what specific things would not work (character personality designs that were very specific to one origin didn't work well in DAO, I think - In Exile is right about that).

So, I'm going to play DA2 with the same basic character I've used my first time through most of their games.  It's the only fair way to compare them.

[Khayness]

Gothic Series and The Witcher (and probably a lot more games I didn't play) did fine with voiced protagonists, this paraphrasing with dialogue wheel could reduce roleplaying to "Upper right for Lawful Good"/Bottom right for Chaotic Evulz".

Do not want. This isn't progress.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alodar wrote...

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.

"Shut up!" is a simple command that offers no justification for itself.

"I'm in charge" is itself justification.

That's a siginificant and relevant difference.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:14 .

[Alodar]

Khayness wrote...

Gothic Series and The Witcher (and probably a lot more games I didn't play) did fine with voiced protagonists, this paraphrasing with dialogue wheel could reduce roleplaying to "Upper right for Lawful Good"/Bottom right for Chaotic Evulz".
Do not want. This isn't progress.

But the developers already said that this is not the case.

Couldn't you wait until you at least try the system before you decide whether or not it is progress?

Alodar

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.
And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

Which is probably why you will probably never enjoy the paraphrase system.
Kind of like watching a 3D movie with your eyes closed.


Alodar

I haven't seen a good 3d movie in my life. 

And before you say Avatar:

Oh boy, Dances with Wolves in space!

[Alodar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Alodar wrote...

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.

"Shut up!" is a simple command that offers no justification for itself.

"I'm in charge" is itself justification.

That's a siginificant and relevant difference.

Okaaaaaay.

So the paraphrase has the intent/tone of the line and the actual line has the justification.

And this is wrong because ?





Alodar

[Jaduggar]

The paraphrasing and spoken dialogue allow for a stronger flow of emotion during dialogue sequences. The way Dragon Age: Origins was set up, there were a lot of cuts of characters emoting in rapidly different ways, depending on your unspoken response, that it all felt a bit artificial.
 
This seemed to have been solved by giving the character a voice. In doing so, the interactions between the hero and other characters are able to cause sound transitions within the dialogue sequence. I can assume there’s still going to be the sharp change of character when ‘investigating’ characters on different topics, and once in a while you’re going to hit that one dialogue option that’s preset to have them snap at you—even though you and whoever just shared some friendly water cooler rumors—but that’s just a inherent issue with the system that nobody really cares enough about to have an issue with.
 
In response of the characters appearing to be more genuine, your own character comes to life. Because you’ve felt that transition between your spoken response and that change in character, it’s more obvious of who the both of you are. Dialogue within any story is the most supreme tool of binding the viewer, player, or reader to the characters—capable of very simply integrating personality, history, the conflict of conscious and subconscious, emotion, and bias, it supersedes voiceless interaction by a mile (something DA:O also missed, but that’s pretty damn irrelevant in more ways than one).
 
After skimming through this thread, I can see people were keen on the idea of paraphrasing so long as it fit tightly with whatever the corresponding dialogue ended up being. Now, when I played through the first Mass Effect I was kind of ticked to realize some of Shepard’s responses didn’t match the few bit of words that paraphrased them, but by the time I went back and replayed it to get a new save for the upcoming sequel, I realized I must have been pretty damn selfish. Sure my character didn’t say what I wanted, but he said what he said so the characters could properly react to what I wanted—yeah, I know that sounds convoluted, deal with it—in the end, what it did was carve out the personality of the commander (If this is what he wants, this is how he’s got to play the game).
 
You have to realize that Hawke isn’t going to be your character. Just as DA:O was, DA2 has a predetermined story with predetermined themes and, more importantly, a predefined main character. He has a history and a future that, sorry, you don’t exactly have a god’s freedom in choosing. People are going to develop him in certain, differentiating ways, but they are all going to learn about him and his story. I believe paraphrased dialogue is a great way of doing this. Even better, icings such as ‘aggression’ or ‘flirtation’ affect much more specifically the ways you’d like to see the characters mature.
 
The way I see it, the only downside to voicing the main character would be if the voice actor behind him was bad. Or Gilbert Gottfried.

[Merci357]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I haven't seen a good 3d movie in my life. 

And before you say Avatar:

Oh boy, Dances with Wolves in space!

It's Pocahontas in space. 
I enjoyed it, for what is is, three hours of simple entertainment, nothing more, nothing less.

[Alodar]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't follow the dialogue with the subtitles turned off. The volume is too dynamic, and I miss whole phrases.
And, if the PC's voice doesn't suit my characters (and I can't imagine any voice suiting every possible character), I'm more likely to mute the voice.

Which is probably why you will probably never enjoy the paraphrase system.
Kind of like watching a 3D movie with your eyes closed.


Alodar

I haven't seen a good 3d movie in my life. 

And before you say Avatar:

Oh boy, Dances with Wolves in space!

Toy Story 3 was excellent in 3D.  (Again 3D was a throw-away line -- let's not get hung up on it.)


Alodar

[MerinTB]

If the dialog wheel is what they are using -

I'd personally rather have the Alpha Protocol system. Just the overall intent. Honestly, that's how I played ME1 & 2 anyway (at least that's how I adjusted about a third of the way through ME1 on the 1st play) -

where is the response on the wheel? What intent do I want? Pick the spot on the wheel closest to the intent I want. Worked remarkably well for ME series for me and it lessened the "that's not what I meant" by me mostly ignoring the paraphrase in the first place.

[Malanek]

Alodar wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

"Shut up!" would be the paraphrase, not the other way around.

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.


Alodar

If I pick "Shut up!", exclaimation mark and all, I would expect expect something like a bellowed "Silence" with maybe something else like "you will do what I tell you." stemming on from that. I do not expect a reasoned explaination.

[Beerfish]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I love how Mr. Gaider is dodging the issue. It's easy to comment on hating paraphrase in general, but the real issue, as we discussed on the first 2 pages, is that paraphrases seem to be done badly or are intentionally confusing.
Look, I've reloaded quicksaves in Mass Effect on PC, that was totally fine. But I'm going to play DA2 on PS3 and reloading saves after each major dialogue can be a huge pain in the ass...

Honest, how often were you actually duped by the intent and the dialogue in the ME games?  If anyone says more than 3 times in both games you're looney bins.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

MerinTB wrote...

If the dialog wheel is what they are using -
I'd personally rather have the Alpha Protocol system. Just the overall intent. Honestly, that's how I played ME1 & 2 anyway (at least that's how I adjusted about a third of the way through ME1 on the 1st play) -
where is the response on the wheel? What intent do I want? Pick the spot on the wheel closest to the intent I want. Worked remarkably well for ME series for me and it lessened the "that's not what I meant" by me mostly ignoring the paraphrase in the first place.

No god no. I will hunt you down and kill you if they do this.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Malanek999 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

"Shut up!" would be the paraphrase, not the other way around.

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.


Alodar

If I pick "Shut up!", exclaimation mark and all, I would expect expect something like a bellowed "Silence" with maybe something else like "you will do what I tell you." stemming on from that. I do not expect a reasoned explaination.

Personally I'd expect a "F*** Off" or a "Shut the hell up!" or at least a "Quiet!". 

[EclipticOlive54]

I like the dialogue wheel, the spoken lines you choose in dialogue where hard to tell whether they were intending it with a different tone or not like being sarcastic; the wheel imo is an upgrade for me