518 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

"Shut up!" is a simple command that offers no justification for itself.

"I'm in charge" is itself justification.

That's a siginificant and relevant difference.

Okaaaaaay.

So the paraphrase has the intent/tone of the line and the actual line has the justification.

And this is wrong because ?

Because the player, when choosing the option, doesn't know the justification is coming.  Maybe he doesn't want to justify his decision.

One of the great things about a game like DAO is that even though many times several dialogue options will all lead to the same consequence, and even the exact same NPC response, that the different options exist offer the player great freedom in how his character expresses himself.

If DAO offered these options:

A) Shut up!
Stop.  Just stop.  Stop talking now.
C) I'm in charge.  You do as I say.

Which you choose might have no effect at all on the game.  They all lead the same place, and the NPCs all say the same thing in response.  But choosing one of those over the others is the roleplaying component of the conversation.

I would rather choose among options that make no difference tahn be presented with options that do make a difference but be unable to choose the one I want (which is what ME did, my hiding the content of the PC's lines).

[pitchblaq]

I like the system, though I'll agree that maybe a "Remember who I am." paraphrase would have been less misleading.

[Xewaka]

Alodar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Alodar wrote...
And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.

"Shut up!" is a simple command that offers no justification for itself.
"I'm in charge" is itself justification.
That's a siginificant and relevant difference.

Okaaaaaay.
So the paraphrase has the intent/tone of the line and the actual line has the justification.
And this is wrong because ?
Alodar

Because the intent/tone of the line is not presented as a justification, for starters. If I am presented with an option that is [aggresive]"Shut up!" I'd expect my character to yell "Shut the f*ck up!". Nothing more, nothing less.
And Sylvius explained it far more eloquently than me.

Modifié par Xewaka, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

Honest, how often were you actually duped by the intent and the dialogue in the ME games?

2-3 times per conversation. 

MerinTB wrote...

If the dialog wheel is what they are using -
I'd personally rather have the Alpha Protocol system. Just the overall intent. Honestly, that's how I played ME1 & 2 anyway (at least that's how I adjusted about a third of the way through ME1 on the 1st play) -
where is the response on the wheel? What intent do I want? Pick the spot on the wheel closest to the intent I want. Worked remarkably well for ME series for me and it lessened the "that's not what I meant" by me mostly ignoring the paraphrase in the first place.

I tried that in ME2, and it failed horribly.  I suspect because they didn't offer decent definitions of what paragon and renegade were.

I hope DA2 defines those intent icons better.

[MerinTB]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

If the dialog wheel is what they are using -
I'd personally rather have the Alpha Protocol system. Just the overall intent. Honestly, that's how I played ME1 & 2 anyway (at least that's how I adjusted about a third of the way through ME1 on the 1st play) -
where is the response on the wheel? What intent do I want? Pick the spot on the wheel closest to the intent I want. Worked remarkably well for ME series for me and it lessened the "that's not what I meant" by me mostly ignoring the paraphrase in the first place.

No god no. I will hunt you down and kill you if they do this.

1 - They aren't going to.
2 - The weird middle ground is where the frustration seems to be for most people, IMO.  They want the full text of the statement and/or the paraphrase doesn't seem (for some people) to match what is said and for a subset of those people the mismatch really bothers them.  The paraphrase is their problem.

If you aren't getting the full dialog (which I'd bet about an equal number of people, especially with a VO MC, don't want the full text of the response as compared to those who DO), and the paraphrase bothers you..
just the intent icon is your only logical solution, IMO.

Unless you are like me and the wheel itself annoys the crap outta you.  But that's my issue.

---

The paraphrase matters far less to me than the position on the wheel.  I don't know WHAT Shepard (or Hawke now) is going to say, but I know the general sentiment of what his response will be.  I don't need the paraphrase for that as is, and will need it even less with the icons.

This is, of course, ignoring completely the "info gathering" part of the wheel, but that usually is just a word or phrase that only says what is being asked about, not what is going to be said, anyway, so...

[Alodar]

Malanek999 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Nighteye does have a point though. The paraphrase of "Shut up!" should not lead to "I'm in charge".

"Shut up!" would be the paraphrase, not the other way around.

And I'm uncertain why you think that "Shut up!"  is a poor paraphrase. The full line states that PC Hawke isn't interested in Carver Hawke's opinion. Hawke is in charge so Carver can just shut up.


Alodar

If I pick "Shut up!", exclaimation mark and all, I would expect expect something like a bellowed "Silence" with maybe something else like "you will do what I tell you." stemming on from that. I do not expect a reasoned explaination.

The Silence would be redundant, because PC Hawke just said "Shut up!" . Remember the intent is that PC Hawke says the paraphrase and then says the full line. He already bellowed the "Shut up!" , at least that's how I read it, and once he had brother Carver's attention PC Hawke  used a more condescending tone to put Carver in his place.

Alodar

[Sylvius the Mad]

EclipticOlive54 wrote...

I like the dialogue wheel, the spoken lines you choose in dialogue where hard to tell whether they were intending it with a different tone or not like being sarcastic; the wheel imo is an upgrade for me

Why did it matter what they were intending?  Just say it however you like.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
If the dialog wheel is what they are using -
I'd personally rather have the Alpha Protocol system. Just the overall intent. Honestly, that's how I played ME1 & 2 anyway (at least that's how I adjusted about a third of the way through ME1 on the 1st play) -
where is the response on the wheel? What intent do I want? Pick the spot on the wheel closest to the intent I want. Worked remarkably well for ME series for me and it lessened the "that's not what I meant" by me mostly ignoring the paraphrase in the first place.

I tried that in ME2, and it failed horribly.  I suspect because they didn't offer decent definitions of what paragon and renegade were.

I hope DA2 defines those intent icons better.

I bet that is indeed because the paragon and renegade actions were so weirdly chosen.

I, too, in ME2 would try to do the Paragon thing and then be baffled by what Shepard did.  Apparently BioWare's definition of Paragon doesn't match my own.

Seriously, I scratched my head several times in ME2 at Shepard's actions for the Paragon options.  Too often, I guess, they were "ends justify the means" choices, where the end may be Paragon (though not always then IMO) but the means felt so very Renegade.

[Malanek]

Alodar wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

If I pick "Shut up!", exclaimation mark and all, I would expect expect something like a bellowed "Silence" with maybe something else like "you will do what I tell you." stemming on from that. I do not expect a reasoned explaination.

The Silence would be redundant, because PC Hawke just said "Shut up!" . Remember the intent is that PC Hawke says the paraphrase and then says the full line. He already bellowed the "Shut up!" , at least that's how I read it, and once he had brother Carver's attention PC Hawke  used a more condescending tone to put Carver in his place.

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

I bet that is indeed because the paragon and renegade actions were so weirdly chosen.

I, too, in ME2 would try to do the Paragon thing and then be baffled by what Shepard did.  Apparently BioWare's definition of Paragon doesn't match my own.

Throughout ME Paragon seemed to mean obsequious, so early in ME2 I actually wanted to be obsequious when talking to the Illusive Man, so I chose Paragon options, and suddenly Shepard was a total dick.

I still don't understand what happened.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

Developer David Sims disagrees.  Check out page 4 of this thread.

[Alodar]

Malanek999 wrote...

Alodar wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

If I pick "Shut up!", exclaimation mark and all, I would expect expect something like a bellowed "Silence" with maybe something else like "you will do what I tell you." stemming on from that. I do not expect a reasoned explaination.

The Silence would be redundant, because PC Hawke just said "Shut up!" . Remember the intent is that PC Hawke says the paraphrase and then says the full line. He already bellowed the "Shut up!" , at least that's how I read it, and once he had brother Carver's attention PC Hawke  used a more condescending tone to put Carver in his place.

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

I have to start work shortly so I won't be able to dig up the quotation but one of the devs, I think it was David, said that the intent was the voiced line flowed from the intent wheel line -- that PC Hawke said what you chose and the voiced  follow up line flowed naturally from it.

***Edit*** Thanks Sylvius!

Alodar

Modifié par Alodar, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:47 .

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I bet that is indeed because the paragon and renegade actions were so weirdly chosen.

I, too, in ME2 would try to do the Paragon thing and then be baffled by what Shepard did.  Apparently BioWare's definition of Paragon doesn't match my own.

Throughout ME Paragon seemed to mean obsequious, so early in ME2 I actually wanted to be obsequious when talking to the Illusive Man, so I chose Paragon options, and suddenly Shepard was a total dick.

I still don't understand what happened.

I adjusted on my second playthrough as thus:

Paragon = look out for little guy, anti-Cerberus
Renegade = look out for number one, not so anti-Cerberus

Either Paragon or Renegade still acted most often like an anti-hero.  That was hard for me to accept, but once I did then I let it roll off me.  Shepard isn't mine, he's a BioWare bad-ass anti-hero.  I get to choose some of his motivations and some of his decisions, but he's still going to be this military bad-ass.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

Developer David Sims disagrees.  Check out page 4 of this thread.

And I like that suggestion.  I'm going to try it on my first DA2 play and see if it works for me or not.

[Malanek]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

Developer David Sims disagrees.  Check out page 4 of this thread.

I stand corrected. Not sure what to make of that at all. It certainly didn't work that way in ME. That does mean that Hawke always opens his dialogue with a three or four word sentence which is pretty weird.

Edit: The other problem with this is now we have no idea what your character is going to say at all other than the tone. In ME you could quite often (although not always) work out roughly what would be said, but now with the paraphrase effectively being spoken, and then what Hawke says afterwards not tied to it, well....almost anything could be said.

Edit 2: Reading it again that is not what David Sims actually says...

DavidSims wrote...
If you find yourself troubled by a disconnect between the paraphrase and the spoken line, try imagining that Hawke is actually saying both, and we’re just cutting past the paraphrase because you’ve already heard it. I think you’ll find the way the NPCs react is consistent with this approach. At least that’s been my experience.

The key word is imagine. Hawkes never actually says the Shut up. Just listening to this I'm becoming even more dubious of this approach.

Modifié par Malanek999, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:56 .

[nijnij]

I might be dumb, but to me, "I'm in charge, you do what I say" is clearly a way to shut Carver up.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I bet that is indeed because the paragon and renegade actions were so weirdly chosen.

I, too, in ME2 would try to do the Paragon thing and then be baffled by what Shepard did.  Apparently BioWare's definition of Paragon doesn't match my own.

Throughout ME Paragon seemed to mean obsequious, so early in ME2 I actually wanted to be obsequious when talking to the Illusive Man, so I chose Paragon options, and suddenly Shepard was a total dick.

I still don't understand what happened.

I adjusted on my second playthrough as thus:

Paragon = look out for little guy, anti-Cerberus
Renegade = look out for number one, not so anti-Cerberus

Either Paragon or Renegade still acted most often like an anti-hero.  That was hard for me to accept, but once I did then I let it roll off me.  Shepard isn't mine, he's a BioWare bad-ass anti-hero.  I get to choose some of his motivations and some of his decisions, but he's still going to be this military bad-ass.

Huge problem for another thread.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

I adjusted on my second playthrough as thus:

Paragon = look out for little guy, anti-Cerberus
Renegade = look out for number one, not so anti-Cerberus

And that's too detailed.  I could well design a character who wants to look out for the little guy, as long as that character is human, and thus Cerberus is my hero.

But the game breaks as soon as you try to play that character.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Jaduggar wrote...

You have to realize that Hawke isn’t going to be your character.

If Hawke isn't my character, then the game is unplayably awful.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Malanek999 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't think this is how it is intended to work at all. The paraphrase is a shortened statement to give the player the meaning of what Hawke will say. Not something Hawke says first (with no voice) before moving onto something else. Hawke does not say the "Shut up" at all unless it is voiced.

Developer David Sims disagrees.  Check out page 4 of this thread.

I stand corrected. Not sure what to make of that at all. It certainly didn't work that way in ME. That does mean that Hawke always opens his dialogue with a three or four word sentence which is pretty weird.

Edit: The other problem with this is now we have no idea what your character is going to say at all other than the tone. In ME you could quite often (although not always) work out roughly what would be said, but now with the paraphrase effectively being spoken, and then what Hawke says afterwards not tied to it, well....almost anything could be said.

Edit 2: Reading it again that is not what David Sims actually says...

DavidSims wrote...
If you find yourself troubled by a disconnect between the paraphrase and the spoken line, try imagining that Hawke is actually saying both, and we’re just cutting past the paraphrase because you’ve already heard it. I think you’ll find the way the NPCs react is consistent with this approach. At least that’s been my experience.

The key word is imagine. Hawkes never actually says the Shut up. Just listening to this I'm becoming even more dubious of this approach.

And yet they assured us earlier on it was going to make much more sense in what the paraphrase said and what Hawke actually speaks. So much for that.

Simply put having the PC's character voiced, limits role playing period. You as a player don't set a tone, you don't even get to pick what is said to begin with.  Terrible design decision imo and sadly it seems there's no going back now. Bioware is so dead set on trying to make their games be hollywood movies at this point to begin with. Roleplaying be damned.

[AlanC9]

Beerfish wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I love how Mr. Gaider is dodging the issue. It's easy to comment on hating paraphrase in general, but the real issue, as we discussed on the first 2 pages, is that paraphrases seem to be done badly or are intentionally confusing.
Look, I've reloaded quicksaves in Mass Effect on PC, that was totally fine. But I'm going to play DA2 on PS3 and reloading saves after each major dialogue can be a huge pain in the ass...

Honest, how often were you actually duped by the intent and the dialogue in the ME games?  If anyone says more than 3 times in both games you're looney bins.

Depends on what you mean by "duped." Does the OP's example qualify? 

[Beerfish]

"2-3 times per conversation. "



I refuse to believe this. I simply refuse to believe it. Hey I know you are very black and white with what you EXPECT and WANT to be in video games but if 2-3 times in each and every conversation you were confused by the typical 'nice answer', 'medium answer that is more nice than nasty' and 'nasty' it boggles the mind.



The intents for these things are pretty clear and a person has to be putting his or head in the sand to not get them after about two conversations. Were there a few real misleads? Yes for sure there was. Was there one or two bad misleads in a quest convo? Perhaps but the great majority a person had to know the type of thing they were going to get.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

I refuse to believe this. I simply refuse to believe it. Hey I know you are very black and white with what you EXPECT and WANT to be in video games but if 2-3 times in each and every conversation you were confused by the typical 'nice answer', 'medium answer that is more nice than nasty' and 'nasty' it boggles the mind. .

"Nice" doesn't tell me anything about the line, though.  What is Shepard actually saying?  What information is he revealing?  What questions will he ask.  Is he asking a question at all?

These were consistently left for the player to guess throughout the game.

[Jaduggar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Jaduggar wrote...

You have to realize that Hawke isn’t going to be your character.

If Hawke isn't my character, then the game is unplayably awful.

Have it your way.

...

(See what I did there?)

[Snoteye]

MerinTB wrote...

Unless you are like me and the wheel itself annoys the crap outta you.

The wheel is atrocious. Mice were not designed for circular motions.

"But it's made for consoles!"

Just... go away.