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[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

Sure.
But that might be a big deal for them. I mean, you implicitly
acknowledge it via the bold. Questioning yourself is character
development - the writers have to accomodate that.

As Gaider already said if they did such they woud accomdate it. So I have no fears of it being horribly handled.

Well, sure. You can
write them that way, but you have to change what was written about
them. If Alistair is by, for example, Duncan might not be a
father-figure to him who he loves in a familial way, but rather someone
who he loves in a romantic way.

Right because heterosexual people can't love someone of the opposite gender in a familial way. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Alistair
was someone who had never experienced love or a relationship of a
non-familal kind before. It would've worked with a female or male NPC.
Duncan was a father figure his sexuality had nothing to do with him finding Duncan to be a father figure.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:07 .

[In Exile]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...
I see...

So if you're bi or gay than you can't have any regular friends (just friends), you must necessarily screw any same-sex buddy.

I don't see where your getting that from since I never said anything even close to this.

Duncan is an incredibly important part of Alistair's life. Alistair clearly loves Duncan. If Duncan were attracted to men, then that love could plausibly be interpreted as romantic, whereas this could not be the case were Alistair not attracted to men. It may well change the character.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

JoePinasi1989 wrote...
I see...

So if you're bi or gay than you can't have any regular friends (just friends), you must necessarily screw any same-sex buddy.

I don't see where your getting that from since I never said anything even close to this.

Duncan is an incredibly important part of Alistair's life. Alistair clearly loves Duncan. If Duncan were attracted to men, then that love could plausibly be interpreted as romantic, whereas this could not be the case were Alistair not attracted to men. It may well change the character.

But it's not romantic and I doubt it would've been even if he was gay. HIs love could be familal regardless. There is no need to "change" his love for Duncan because he's attracted to a male PC.

[David Gaider]

In Exile wrote...
Sure. But that might be a big deal for them. I mean, you implicitly acknowledge it via the bold. Questioning yourself is character development - the writers have to accomodate that.

If the question is raised. We could choose to shine a spotlight on something or not. Why everyone would assume we'd take the most awkward way, I'm not certain-- there are lots of ways this could be done, if that's what we wanted to do.

Well, sure. You can write them that way, but you have to change what was written about them. If Alistair is by, for example, Duncan might not be a father-figure to him who he loves in a familial way, but rather someone who he loves in a romantic way.

Or he could be the exact same father-figure he was in DAO.

We could indeed have made Alistair and Morrigan same-sex romances in DAO. It would have required how we set up the romances themselves to change, and possibly we'd need to look at some of the dialogues to be about different things or have different branches-- but it could have been done, if we went out of our way to do it.

People are inventing some silly excuses in this thread. There are many ways you can approach the issue to make the implementation not ridiculous. It will never be cost-free, but it needn't be crazy, either, and it needn't be a situation where everyone is coming onto everyone and constantly talking about how they sleep with both men and women.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh the issue with sexuality is that's its not set in stone (not to me anyways) it's fluid. So saying sexuality is central kind of is "So? It's fluid."

It's quite possible for someone who identifies as straight to question themselves and possibly have feelings for someone of the same gender.

It's possible, but I doubt it's as common as some like to believe.  But that could just be my bias, because honestly that's never once been a question for me.  So even though it could have gone differently with Morrigan or Alistair, I personally relate to them better as characters because of how they're written.

OTOH I liked Zevran's romance a lot, so it's not that I couldn't relate to a bisexual character, I just liked the mix of character types.  Having all the LIs be bisexual would seem strange.  Like an incredible coincidence that Hawke just happens to be a bi magnet. 

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

Duncan is an incredibly important part of Alistair's life. Alistair clearly loves Duncan. If Duncan were attracted to men, then that love could plausibly be interpreted as romantic, whereas this could not be the case were Alistair not attracted to men. It may well change the character.

Or not....even two homosexual men could possibly be close friends and love each other in a strictly platonic way.  Nothing has to be romantic there.

[In Exile]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...[/quote]

As Gaider already said if they did such they woud accomdate it. So I have no fears of it being horribly handled. [/quote]

That's not my point. My point is that it would have to be written with sexuality in mind, which is not what the OP is really asking for. He's asking for sexuality to swap - so straight Alistair for women is gay Alistair for men. That's why bisexual is in quotes.

[quote]
Right because heterosexual people can't love someone of the opposite gender in a familial way. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][/quote]

What is with this strawman? I never said anything of the sort. I was talking specifically about Alistair and Duncan.

[quote]Alistairwas someone who had never experienced love or a relationship of a non-familal kind before. It would've worked with a female or male NPC.

Duncan was a father figure his sexuality had nothing to do with him finding Duncan to be a father figure.

[/quote]

Duncan is never refered to as a father figure by Alistair. If you look at the Duncan-specific dialogue, it's only reminiscence and a lot about how important Duncan was to him. We conclude that Duncan was a father figure partly because of Alistair's sexuality. But there is no reason Duncan couldn't be an unrequited love. Alistair speaks about him in a way we could interpret so.

The player can say that Duncan was like a father to him, but that's not the same thing.

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

People are inventing some silly excuses in this thread. There are many ways you can approach the issue to make the implementation not ridiculous. It will never be cost-free, but it needn't be crazy, either, and it needn't be a situation where everyone is coming onto everyone and constantly talking about how they sleep with both men and women.

So I have to ask. Why didn't you do it? Or why didn't it fit their characters? I am just curious now because I always thought the reason was 'too much work involved' which I completely understand and agree with since there are more important things to work on.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

That's not my point. My point is that it would have to be written with sexuality in mind, which is not what the OP is really asking for. He's asking for sexuality to swap - so straight Alistair for women is gay Alistair for men. That's why bisexual is in quotes.

Why?  What if Alistair was a straight female Warden....would the relationship between 'her' and Duncan have to be written with sexuality in mind?

Modifié par jlb524, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:19 .

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote...

But it's not romantic and I doubt it would've been even if he was gay. HIs love could be familal regardless. There is no need to "change" his love for Duncan because he's attracted to a male PC.

Sure - but as I keep saying, that's a character interpretation question that can change once you start shifting around what the character of Alistair is. A can't becomes a could, or an is becomes a could and so on.

All of this is to say that by varying who the character is attracted to you can change something important about that character. To go back to the start, your point was that sexuality doesn't matter. Mine is that it is, precisely because it can make things like this possible (i.e. no romantic love to possible romantic love).

jlb524 wrote...
Or not....even two homosexual men could
possibly be close friends and love each other in a strictly platonic
way.  Nothing has to be romantic there.

Obviously. What I am saying, though, is that for the character interpretation can change.

The idea is not to prove that Alistair somehow loved or would love Duncan if he happned to be bi. But rather that if he was bi, the kinds of relationships he can have changes.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
That's not my point. My point is that it would have to be written with sexuality in mind, which is not what the OP is really asking for. He's asking for sexuality to swap - so straight Alistair for women is gay Alistair for men. That's why bisexual is in quotes.

Ah really? That's...very odd. Then again I never was supportive of the OP just didn't agree with the whole sexuality morphs a character completely and forever.

What is with this strawman? I never said anything of the sort. I was talking specifically about Alistair and Duncan.

Yeah and you're saying it'snot possible for Alistair to love Duncan in a familal way regardless of sexuality are you not? 

Duncan is never refered to as a father figure by Alistair. If you look at the Duncan-specific dialogue, it's only reminiscence and a lot about how important Duncan was to him. We conclude that Duncan was a father figure partly because of Alistair's sexuality. But there is no reason Duncan couldn't be an unrequited love. Alistair speaks about him in a way we could interpret so.

The player can say that Duncan was like a father to him, but that's not the same thing.

Actually I got far more fatherly vibes than romantic regardless of sexuality. Then again that was my interpretation of the dialogue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:25 .

[In Exile]

jlb524
Why?  What if Alistair was a female Warden....would the relationship between 'her' and Duncan have to be written with sexuality in mind?

Yes. You would have to legitimately decide if the relationship is sexual or not. Look at the response to the starw-man that just happned. Here is what other people said:

JoePinasi1989 wrote...
I see...

So if you're bi or gay
than you can't have any regular friends (just friends), you must
necessarily screw any same-sex buddy.

Right because heterosexual people can't love someone
of the opposite gender in a familial way. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Even your own post:

jlb524 wrote...
Or not....even two homosexual men could
possibly be close friends and love each other in a strictly platonic
way.  Nothing has to be romantic there.

All of these take a stand on sexual attraction: bi Alistair, though he could be attracted to Duncan, is not.

You make these kinds of decisions in the same way you make a decision about the kind of morality that Alistair has.

[Mistress9Nine]

I don't mind straight only romances as long as there isn't a double standard. What bothered me in DA is that you had 2 str8 and 2 bi options. No strictly gay options. It's easy to say "We didn't do all bi romances because the characters would've needed to be written differently" but I can't really accept it as an excuse until this works both ways.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...


It's possible, but I doubt it's as common as some like to believe.  But that could just be my bias, because honestly that's never once been a question for me.  So even though it could have gone differently with Morrigan or Alistair, I personally relate to them better as characters because of how they're written.

OTOH I liked Zevran's romance a lot, so it's not that I couldn't relate to a bisexual character, I just liked the mix of character types.  Having all the LIs be bisexual would seem strange.  Like an incredible coincidence that Hawke just happens to be a bi magnet. 

Frankly I find the fact that multiple opposite sex LIs can all be attaracted to the PC strange to be perfectly honest. Especially when they vary so much in personality.

I related to them (Alistair and Leliana) better because of personality and writing. Their sexuality wasn't really forefront in my mind.

Though yes I personally would prefer a mix of character types as well. Like some strictly gay characters. And attractive characters who weren't attracted to the PC. Well *looks at Sebastian* looks like the latter I'll be gettin.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:25 .

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah and you're saying it'snot possible for Alistair to love Duncan in a familal way regardless of sexuality are you not?

What? No.

I'm saying that if Alistair were bi, he could be attracted to Duncan, and whether or not he was attracted to Duncan is a choice that you have to come down and make. If Alistair is straight the whole issue is a no brainer, but all of it relates to the idea that sexuality is as important a part of a character as any other feature we choose to focus on.

Let me put it this way: whether or not a character has a sense of humour is not important... unless you decide to write about the character reacting to a joke. In which case it becomes important.

This is my point about sexuality.

If all of DA:O was about a lone man killing demons, then whether he was bi, straight, gay, whatever, would be 100% irrelevant. But if it was about his relatonships to other characters, it would become relevant.

Actually I got far more fatherly vibes than romantic regardless of sexuality. Then again that was my interpretation of the dialogue.

Alistair loved Duncan. That's what I got out of the dialogue. He looked up to him. That it was like a father (and not, for example, a brother or lover) was because of traits about Alistair & Duncan, e.g. the age gap.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524
Why?  What if Alistair was a female Warden....would the relationship between 'her' and Duncan have to be written with sexuality in mind?

Yes. You would have to legitimately decide if the relationship is sexual or not.

Okay, then the writers decide not too make it sexual or decide to make it sexual (as they would have to do with the hypothetical straight female 'Alistair' and Duncan relationship or the relationship between FemWarden and Oghren and Sten and any other potential heterosexual pairings).

I'm not sure what larger point you are trying to make here. 

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...
 And attractive characters who weren't attracted to the PC.

Well uh, I had crushes on NPCs who weren't even sure my Wardens were female, so...

STEN, you big bronze heartbreaker you!!!

[David Gaider]

AlexXIV wrote...
So I have to ask. Why didn't you do it? Or why didn't it fit their characters? I am just curious now because I always thought the reason was 'too much work involved' which I completely understand and agree with since there are more important things to work on.

It's not free, as I said-- and there really seemed to be no point because Morrigan was not interested in women and Alistair was not attracted to men. That's how we thought of them, and the idea of having bisexual characters was something we were going to try out... it wasn't a question of "why wouldn't we?" but "why would we?" Because we had such a tradition of doing it prior? We had two characters we concepted as bisexual and accepted the extra costs with.

If we started out and said "the goal is to make all romances accessible to all players" and we were willing to accept the costs there as well, we could arrange the romances to make the costs as low as necessary and keep the impact on players who weren't seeking gay content minimal. That's not always going to be the goal, however, but it's a perfectly acceptable one.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
What? No.

I'm saying that if Alistair were bi, he could be attracted to Duncan, and whether or not he was attracted to Duncan is a choice that you have to come down and make. If Alistair is straight the whole issue is a no brainer, but all of it relates to the idea that sexuality is as important a part of a character as any other feature we choose to focus on.

But the relationship would still be familal.

Let me put it this way: whether or not a character has a sense of humour is not important... unless you decide to write about the character reacting to a joke. In which case it becomes important.

This is my point about sexuality.

If all of DA:O was about a lone man killing demons, then whether he was bi, straight, gay, whatever, would be 100% irrelevant. But if it was about his relatonships to other characters, it would become relevant.

Yes but the fact remains that while one could think maybe their relationship was romantic it is still familal in game. (Hell some people think he had a crush on Duncan despite being straight.)

Alistair loved Duncan. That's what I got out of the dialogue. He looked up to him. That it was like a father (and not, for example, a brother or lover) was because of traits about Alistair & Duncan, e.g. the age gap.

Actually I saw it in the way Duncan treated Alistair in the scenes they were with each oher and how he spoke about him. Then again personal interpretation.

[AlexXIV]

In Exile wrote...

Duncan is never refered to as a father figure by Alistair. If you look at the Duncan-specific dialogue, it's only reminiscence and a lot about how important Duncan was to him. We conclude that Duncan was a father figure partly because of Alistair's sexuality. But there is no reason Duncan couldn't be an unrequited love. Alistair speaks about him in a way we could interpret so.

The player can say that Duncan was like a father to him, but that's not the same thing.

I think in a dialogue you can mention that Duncan was like a father to Alistair. Even though I don't think he confirms it directly. But honestly, while I can see why bisexual or homosexual oriented people would like to see more of that happen I think it would be rather immersion breaking for the majority. I mean I have come a long way to not be a homophobic, but the idea that everyone has to be bi still strikes me odd. And I just don't fitting for a medival setting. For Mass Effect I could care less because I'd imagine in the future we see things more liberal than today. But even if DA is a fantasy setting where in theory everything is possible, it is a bit hard to imagine.

I mean topics like that never really get addressed in the game, but you don't see many homosexual couples in the game. There is Isabella who is single I think, and there is the Warden who can get one. The rest of the world seems to be pretty much heterosexual. Just saying.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
 And attractive characters who weren't attracted to the PC.

Well uh, I had crushes on NPCs who weren't even sure my Wardens were female, so...

STEN, you big bronze heartbreaker you!!!

Meh. Sten's without the SA mod to me is kind of his skin is that weird color and it's just weird.

Though he wins 2nd place in audio erotica.

[David Gaider]

Mistress9Nine wrote...
I don't mind straight only romances as long as there isn't a double standard. What bothered me in DA is that you had 2 str8 and 2 bi options. No strictly gay options. It's easy to say "We didn't do all bi romances because the characters would've needed to be written differently" but I can't really accept it as an excuse until this works both ways.

We didn't (and won't) do strictly gay romances because a romance is very expensive content-- both from a writing, cinematic and testing perspective. It's one thing to add the extra costs to piggy-back on top of an existing romance plotline (and by this I don't necessarily mean "add gay option to straight romance"... it could just as easily be the reverse) and quite something else to have a romance created from whole cloth.

All content has a cost. Sometimes people forget that we as developers create content -- not romance options. It's not solely about whether you have the choice and how fair that is, but whether or not we can afford to make it and whether it fits into the rest of the project we're making.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:35 .

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
So I have to ask. Why didn't you do it? Or why didn't it fit their characters? I am just curious now because I always thought the reason was 'too much work involved' which I completely understand and agree with since there are more important things to work on.

It's not free, as I said-- and there really seemed to be no point because Morrigan was not interested in women and Alistair was not attracted to men. That's how we thought of them, and the idea of having bisexual characters was something we were going to try out... it wasn't a question of "why wouldn't we?" but "why would we?" Because we had such a tradition of doing it prior? We had two characters we concepted as bisexual and accepted the extra costs with.

If we started out and said "the goal is to make all romances accessible to all players" and we were willing to accept the costs there as well, we could arrange the romances to make the costs as low as necessary and keep the impact on players who weren't seeking gay content minimal. That's not always going to be the goal, however, but it's a perfectly acceptable one.

Ah gotcha

Even though I must say every romance is open to every player anyway, only not if they refuse to play a certain gender or romance which is their problem imo

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...

Okay, then the writers decide not too make it sexual or decide to make it sexual (as they would have to do with the hypothetical straight female 'Alistair' and Duncan relationship or the relationship between FemWarden and Oghren and Sten and any other potential heterosexual pairings).

I'm not sure what larger point you are trying to make here. 

That as sexuality is something the writers have to take into account when writing a character, and is an important part of writing the character.

That's all. Someone made the claim it was irrelevant. I disagree.

Ryzaki wrote...

But the relationship would still be
familal.

Right, but the writers account for sexuality by making a choice re: it. It's an important part of the character, because it can determine things like these (i.e. if Alistair is 100% hetereosexual, then he cannot have a romantic love toward male NPCs).

Yes but the fact remains that while one could think maybe their
relationship was romantic it is still familal in game. (Hell some people
think he had a crush on Duncan despite being straight.)

Right, but I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm talking about hypotheticals.

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually I saw it in the way Duncan treated
Alistair in the scenes they were with each oher and how he spoke about
him. Then again personal interpretation.

Maybe. I'm not a public affection type person, so I don't expect people who are romantically involved to be visibly romantic with each other.