685 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

I'm not getting the problem with bisexual love interests for gay characters, a man is a man and a woman is a woman. If they want to homosexual relationship why does it matter if they also can be attracted to people of the opposite gender. The stigma associated with bisexuality is beginning to grate on me.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:41 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh I don't know. That licking a lamppost in winter dialogue wasn't 100% heterosexual to me.



Though yes I see your point but I do expect people who are romantically involved to be somewhat visibly romantic with each other. Even slight things like a kiss before a battle or some such.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

That as sexuality is something the writers have to take into account when writing a character, and is an important part of writing the character.

That's all. Someone made the claim it was irrelevant. I disagree.

It's possibly not completely irrelevant, but it also isn't as big of a deal as some make it nor as important.

With your Alistair/Duncan example, even if Alistair were bisexual, the writer might not even have thought about sexuality when writing the Alistair/Duncan dialog and relationship.  Sexuality doesn't have to crop up in their minds when they write every single in-game relationship and I'm betting it usually doesn't.

I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Modifié par jlb524, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:44 .

[Zjarcal]

jlb524 wrote...
I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Oh wonderful, now I have a mental image that I wish would just GO AWAY! 

[AlexXIV]

Zjarcal wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Oh wonderful, now I have a mental image that I wish would just GO AWAY! 

Hm I have to say I never even thought about that when listening to their banter, but I don't remember any sexual tension or whatever. Well anyway, just because you are attracted to a certain gender it doesn't mean you are to everyone of this gender. So likely Wynne was too old and ... different ... for Leliana, and Wynne ... who knows.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:59 .

[Mistress9Nine]

David Gaider wrote...

We didn't (and won't) do strictly gay romances because a romance is very expensive content-- both from a writing, cinematic and testing perspective. It's one thing to add the extra costs to piggy-back on top of an existing romance plotline (and by this I don't necessarily mean "add gay option to straight romance"... it could just as easily be the reverse) and quite something else to have a romance created from whole cloth.

All content has a cost. Sometimes people forget that we as developers create content -- not romance options. It's not solely about whether you have the choice and how fair that is, but whether or not we can afford to make it and whether it fits into the rest of the project we're making.

I get it. I know you guys have your limits and stuff. I'm also pretty sure the writers are running around squeeing about adding extra awesome stuff they thought of only to be shut down and told that there are budget constraints. I'm just saying that we're not stupid, you could just tell us that this is not a dating sim and gays are not like a core target audience so there is little business sense to make more gay/bi LIs. I can accept that. Just be straightforward and don't come up with silly excuses.

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh I don't know. That licking a lamppost in winter dialogue wasn't 100% heterosexual to me.
 

So much win.

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:57 .

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...

Hm I have to say I never even thought about that when listening to their banter, but I don't remember any sexual tension or whatever.

Because there wasn't any...that's my point.  I'm sure the writers didin't even think to include it either as Leliana's sexuality was a non-issue in this relationship/banter as it is in most of them.

Modifié par jlb524, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:55 .

[AlexXIV]

Lilacs wrote...

Some of us believe Duncan to be a father figure for Alistair because he was the only "one" person who gives a darn about him and that is clearly expressed in the dialogues in DAO.
I believe that if Duncan was "gay" in DAO, Alistair would still feel the way he feels about him: someone who helps him where others shuns him. He would not interpret Duncan's "help" as a come on to him.

Duncan's personality as displayed in DAO is a man of honor, a caring soul. Therefore, he would help Alistair because it is the right thing for him to do, not because he feels attracted to Alistair (that is if he were a homosexual).

P.S. Writers are creative people; so give them some credit here.

Duncan also knew that Alistair is Maric's son. So maybe he thought Alistair would help with the Grey Warden's reputation in Ferelden. I don't think Duncan counted on Cailan's death, but ... he sent Alistair to the tower which saved his butt while Cailan died ... a bit foolishly.

[AlexXIV]

Mistress9Nine wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

We didn't (and won't) do strictly gay romances because a romance is very expensive content-- both from a writing, cinematic and testing perspective. It's one thing to add the extra costs to piggy-back on top of an existing romance plotline (and by this I don't necessarily mean "add gay option to straight romance"... it could just as easily be the reverse) and quite something else to have a romance created from whole cloth.

All content has a cost. Sometimes people forget that we as developers create content -- not romance options. It's not solely about whether you have the choice and how fair that is, but whether or not we can afford to make it and whether it fits into the rest of the project we're making.

I get it. I know you guys have your limits and stuff. I'm also pretty sure the writers are running around squeeing about adding extra awesome stuff they thought of only to be shut down and told that there are budget constraints. I'm just saying that we're not stupid, you could just tell us that this is not a dating sim and gays are not like a core target audience so there is little business sense to make more gay/bi LIs. I can accept that. Just be straightforward and don't come up with silly excuses.

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh I don't know. That licking a lamppost in winter dialogue wasn't 100% heterosexual to me.
 

So much win.

It was said many times. You may not have read it yet, but this is not like the first thread of it's kind.

[Zjarcal]

AlexXIV wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Oh wonderful, now I have a mental image that I wish would just GO AWAY! 

Hm I have to say I never even thought about that when listening to their banter, but I don't remember any sexual tension or whatever. Well anyway, just because you are attracted to a certain gender it doesn't mean you are to everyone of this gender. So likely Wynne was too old and ... different ... for Leliana and Wynne ... who knows.

I know there wasn't any sexual tension, but the fact that someone brought it up as an example gave me that dreaded mental image....

[jlb524]

Zjarcal wrote...

I know there wasn't any sexual tension, but the fact that someone brought it up as an example gave me that dreaded mental image....

Well, I must give you my profuse apologies then.

Think happy thoughts.

[Zjarcal]

jlb524 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I know there wasn't any sexual tension, but the fact that someone brought it up as an example gave me that dreaded mental image....

Well, I must give you my profuse apologies then.

Think happy thoughts.

*thinks of Leliana and Merill playing with caramel pudding*

Ok, it's all better now. 

[silentassassin264]

Well since this thread has gone this long without getting locked, I suppose I will add my two cents.



The problem I had with Origins was that I played Jade Empire first. The love interests were all written to be flexible with the close fist and open palm style nobody got left out. If you were an open palm homosexual your love interest would turn to see things your way for the most part, same with closed fist. If you were a lesbian for example, Silk Fox would embrace her ninja side and be a jerk with you if you were closed fist and she would embrace the empress side if you were open palm. That meant if you were traveling with your love interest and staying true to yourself, you didn't have to worry about mutinying or having to kiss up. This means homosexual players never had to get in a stupid conflict with their love interest.



In Dragon Age, the love interests were not written with that duality. Leliana would remain a Chantry sympathizer regardless of you actions (the hardening was a joke. Only good for threesomes and not mutinying over the urn. Did not actually change personality back to Leliana's Song Leliana.) and Zev would remain a free spirit hedonist.



My first character to finish the game was my battleaxe wielding female human noble. She was privileged, arrogant, selfish, treated elves like servants, hated mages (although that was from jealousy), and disliked the Chantry. She was a lesbian who much to Eleanor's chagrin, felt men were rather overrated. She very quickly took a liking to Morrigan as they were kindred spirits but seeing as Morrigan didn't roll that way (although considering her reaction to what Flemeth expected her to do, I don't know why not and being Ferelden wasn't really a good excuse because she wasn't Ferelden enough to even get a handshake.) she was left with no sharing of the bunk or Leliana. Leliana was everything Aria Cousland wasn't. She was a chantry obsessed zealot who still kept her sickeningly saccharine Orlesian nature. When Morrigan questioned Aria about the "dalliances" and Aria gushed over it, it was particular hilarious for me because other than that, they had literally nothing to talk about between them. Leliana objected to everything Aria did and without a constant supply of lutes and random gifts, there would have been no way that relationship could have worked with that low approval.



The problem with Aria's story, is that she was seriously better off going alone than being with Leliana because that was as fake a romance as you could possibly get. If you played as a nice sweet lesbian like Serena Amell, then everything went swimmingly, but if you were a bad girl, no love interest compatibility for you. To me this was not very fair because if you were heterosexual, if you were a good girl like Adelaide Cousland, then you and Alistair can hit it off. If you were more of a jerk like Kita Tabris, you and Zev can revel in causing bloodbaths across the countryside. Or in other words, if you aren't the right type of homosexual, you either have no love interest for you or you suffer through one insanely awful matchup. While romances are optional and Aria was not really entitled to a love interest anyway (had Howe not butchered her family though, she would have really been happy when Lady Landra visited. In fact she would encourage more visits) it just doesn't really seem fair to be left out like that.



While making everyone bisexual would have helped in Origins so Aria and Morrigan could be such a cute sardonic couple, I understand that the writers of Dragon Age had something specific in mind when writing these characters and wished for them to be realized in a specific. As mentioned at first, this feeling of what is fair is largely because I was spoiled by Jade Empire. However, here is hoping to the rivalry system solving this problem so Neo Aria Hawke isn't left in the cold.



I talk too much.

[jlb524]

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem with Aria's story, is that she was seriously better off going alone than being with Leliana because that was as fake a romance as you could possibly get. If you played as a nice sweet lesbian like Serena Amell, then everything went swimmingly, but if you were a bad girl, no love interest compatibility for you.
 

True.  Oddly enough, since I only go for the f/f romance in games like this and disregard the m/f ones, I design characters to fit the f/f romance partner instead of designing a character first and then picking whomever fits her better.  That's my personal workaround to this issue.  Of course, I understand that most don't want to do this, but this is how I've adapted personally to the issue you raise.   I just wonder if others do this too?

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
It's possibly not completely irrelevant, but it also isn't as big of a deal as some make it nor as important.

With your Alistair/Duncan example, even if Alistair were bisexual, the writer might not even have thought about sexuality when writing the Alistair/Duncan dialog and relationship.  Sexuality doesn't have to crop up in their minds when they write every single in-game relationship and I'm betting it usually doesn't.

And I'm going to bet that when the writers create a character, if they breach the subject of will the character be attracted to anyone, then they neccesarily involve sexuality.

Put it this way: they might never even think about a character's political beliefs, but if they are going have the character show up to a political rally, the would hash it out.

Sexuality is important whenever you are going to write about a character in a sexual situation.

I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Look at Morrigain's and Leliana's. They did.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

Sexuality is important whenever you are going to write about a character in a sexual situation.

Of course...but not every situation is sexual in nature...most aren't. I'm not saying a character's sexuality (whether gay, straight, bi) will always be unimportant and should be ignored across the board. However, I believe the notion that a character's sexuality will have large effect on the majority of their in-game relationships to be flawed. I also don't believe it has quite the effect on a character's personality as some try to make it out to be.

Look at Morrigain's and Leliana's. They did.

Though this is debatable, I will give you that. However, that's one interaction. It's not like Leliana is flirting with every female in the game and her sexuality isn't a big deal in the vast majority of her interactions with others.   If Leliana was strictly heterosexual, the majority of her dialog with others would play out the same, minus (possibly) that one convo with Morrigan.

Modifié par jlb524, 14 janvier 2011 - 09:33 .

[AngelicMachinery]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I must give you my profuse apologies then.

Think happy thoughts.

I read this in Morrigan's voice and it was fantastic.

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote..
Of course...but not every situation is sexual in nature...most aren't. I'm not saying a character's sexuality (whether gay, straight, bi) will always be unimportant and should be ignored across the board. However, I believe the notion that a character's sexuality will have large effect on the majority of their in-game relationships to be flawed. I also don't believe it has quite the effect on a character's personality as some try to make it out to be.

But no one is saying this. No one says you can't write a character without taking into account their sexuality. But you can't write their character in a context where their sexuality might matter without taking into account that sexuality. That is my point, which is contrary to this thread (since it wants variable straight & gay).

I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

Though this is debatable, I will give you that.

• Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
• Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
• Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you
  I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I
  understand.
• Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?
• Leliana: Maybe we could get you in a nice dress one day.
  Silk. No, maybe velvet. Velvet is heavier, better to guard against the
  cold in Ferelden. Dark red velvet, yes. With gold embroidery. It should
  be cut low in the front of course, we don't want to hide your features.
• Morrigan: Stop looking at my breasts like that. 'Tis
  most disturbing!
  
• Leliana: You don't think so? And if it's cut low in the
  front we must put your hair up to show off that lovely neck.
• Morrigan: You are insane. I would sooner let Alistair
  dress me.
• Leliana: It'll be fun, I promise! We'll get some shoes
  too! Ah, shoes! We could go shopping together!

To me that sounds rather sexual.

However, that's one interaction. It's not like Leliana is flirting with every female in the game and her sexuality isn't a big deal in the vast majority of her interactions with others.   If Leliana was strictly heterosexual, the majority of her dialog with others would play out the same, minus (possibly) that one convo with Morrigan.

She doesn't need to flirt with everyone. Her flirting with everyone (or anyone) is an entirely different character trait.

Modifié par In Exile, 14 janvier 2011 - 09:44 .

[-Rue-]

jlb524 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem with Aria's story, is that she was seriously better off going alone than being with Leliana because that was as fake a romance as you could possibly get. If you played as a nice sweet lesbian like Serena Amell, then everything went swimmingly, but if you were a bad girl, no love interest compatibility for you.
 

True.  Oddly enough, since I only go for the f/f romance in games like this and disregard the m/f ones, I design characters to fit the f/f romance partner instead of designing a character first and then picking whomever fits her better.  That's my personal workaround to this issue.  Of course, I understand that most don't want to do this, but this is how I've adapted personally to the issue you raise.   I just wonder if others do this too?

I don't do that on my first playthrough (when you're still getting to know the characters) but I do afterwards. So I had a super-religious female to pair up with Leliana, a humorous goody-two-shoes for Alistair, a pragmatic hedonist for Zevran and a ruthless and selfish Chantry-hating guy for Morrigan. Trying to pair Zevran's Warden with Alistair, or worse yet, Morrigan's with Leliana would have been pointless and frustrating.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...


But no one is saying this. No one says you can't write a character without taking into account their sexuality. But you can't write their character in a context where their sexuality might matter without taking into account that sexuality. That is my point, which is contrary to this thread (since it wants variable straight & gay).

There are those that have stated that changing sexuality must mean that the character completely changes (which I don't agree with). Also, I do agree with the points you just made. However, I was confused because of your Alistair/Duncan example, which is a context in which sexuality does not matter and you said that it does.

I still think the Morrigan/Leliana thing could be interpreted differently, but it really doesn't matter with what I'm trying to prove.

[silentassassin264]

jlb524 wrote...

True.  Oddly enough, since I only go for the f/f romance in games like this and disregard the m/f ones, I design characters to fit the f/f romance partner instead of designing a character first and then picking whomever fits her better.  That's my personal workaround to this issue.  Of course, I understand that most don't want to do this, but this is how I've adapted personally to the issue you raise.   I just wonder if others do this too?

I couldn't do that.  When I play rpg's I am that character.  I draw from whatever aspect(s) of myself I am using, exaggerate them if necessary, and from then on I literally am that character.  I couldn't consciously make a Warden for Morrigan, for example, and make it all the way through the game because in some long stretch like the Fade or the Deep Roads, I would lose the immersion, get bored, and never finish the character.

In Exile wrote...

I mean, look at Leliana and Wynne's relationship and banter in game....do you think the writers kept Leliana's bisexuality always in mind when writing it?

Look at Morrigain's and Leliana's. They did. 

I of course see where you are coming from but I never actually heard the conversation as flirting.  To get to that point, Morrigan and Leliana had been complaining about the Maker and whatnot and they seemed to be getting rather icy.  Leliana then brings up her favorite past time, fashion, to try to get of to a new start with Morrigan and Morrigan just retained her skepticism throughout.  I never really got anything sexual from that.

[request denied]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote..
Of course...but not every situation is sexual in nature...most aren't. I'm not saying a character's sexuality (whether gay, straight, bi) will always be unimportant and should be ignored across the board. However, I believe the notion that a character's sexuality will have large effect on the majority of their in-game relationships to be flawed. I also don't believe it has quite the effect on a character's personality as some try to make it out to be.

But no one is saying this. No one says you can't write a character without taking into account their sexuality. But you can't write their character in a context where their sexuality might matter without taking into account that sexuality. That is my point, which is contrary to this thread (since it wants variable straight & gay).

I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

Though this is debatable, I will give you that.

• Leliana: You are very beautiful Morrigan.
  
• Morrigan: Tell me something I do not know.
  
• Leliana: But you always dress in such rags. It suits you
  I suppose. A little tear here, a little rip there to show some skin. I
  understand.
  
• Morrigan: You understand I lived in a forest, I hope?
  
• Leliana: Maybe we could get you in a nice dress one day.
  Silk. No, maybe velvet. Velvet is heavier, better to guard against the
  cold in Ferelden. Dark red velvet, yes. With gold embroidery. It should
  be cut low in the front of course, we don't want to hide your features.
  
• Morrigan: Stop looking at my breasts like that. 'Tis
  most disturbing!
  
• Leliana: You don't think so? And if it's cut low in the
  front we must put your hair up to show off that lovely neck.
  
• Morrigan: You are insane. I would sooner let Alistair
  dress me.
  
• Leliana: It'll be fun, I promise! We'll get some shoes
  too! Ah, shoes! We could go shopping together!

To me that sounds rather sexual.

This was some of the funnest banter in the game but was it sexual or was Leliana teasing Morrigan and having some fun .

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
There are those that have stated that changing sexuality must mean that the character completely changes (which I don't agree with).

Yeah, that's nonsence.

Also, I do agree with the points you just made. However, I was confused because of your Alistair/Duncan example, which is a context in which sexuality does not matter and you said that it does.

I worded it poorly. What I wanted to illustrate was that sexuality could matter in that context. That is, what becomes a neccesary thing (Alistair having some kind of familial relationship with Duncan) is not per se a familial thing if we start with a bisexual orientation.

Basically my point was just that having Alistair as bisexual or not opens (or closes) doors for the writers.

[Fidget6]

Zjarcal wrote...
The sexuality of a character has to be woven into their personality, not just tacked on for the sake of fan service.

This. It would feel strange and a bit silly if every character was bi. I do like the idea of being able to flirt with any party member you'd like though.