685 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

I agree that complimenting a female's figure doesn't make you gay. Maker knows my friends have groped me enough to disprove that.

"Ooh they're so big!" 

Bloody perverts. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 janvier 2011 - 10:29 .

[bbfan13]

jlb524 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

The problem with Aria's story, is that she was seriously better off going alone than being with Leliana because that was as fake a romance as you could possibly get. If you played as a nice sweet lesbian like Serena Amell, then everything went swimmingly, but if you were a bad girl, no love interest compatibility for you.
 

True.  Oddly enough, since I only go for the f/f romance in games like this and disregard the m/f ones, I design characters to fit the f/f romance partner instead of designing a character first and then picking whomever fits her better.  That's my personal workaround to this issue.  Of course, I understand that most don't want to do this, but this is how I've adapted personally to the issue you raise.   I just wonder if others do this too?

I know I'm getting way OT here but I'm interested.  You both seem to treat the romances as something that you have to do as opposed to something you choose to do.  In game the only difference is a cut scene and some different words at the end of the game so there is no in game benefit to having a relationship.  I ask because being a heterosexual male I have a lot more options in the games but the vast majority of my ME1, ME2 & DA:O playthoughs I never complete a romance because I simply have no interest in the potential partners in those games.  Fortunately for me, Isabela is coming.  Four games in and I finally get one I like.  If your relationship with Leliana makes no sense, don't have it.

With that said, I do roleplay characters who are interested so I can see the story lines just not my core character.

[AlanC9]

As an American, I read the Leliana-Morrigan dialog as being sexual. Or rather, I thought that Morrigan interpreted it that way; hence being disturbed by it. I wasn't quite sure about Leliana's intent, or even if Leliana had a clear intent in her mind..

[silentassassin264]

Fidget6 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
The sexuality of a character has to be woven into their personality, not just tacked on for the sake of fan service.

This. It would feel strange and a bit silly if every character was bi. I do like the idea of being able to flirt with any party member you'd like though.

I agree but the problem was Alistair had a perfectly justifiable reason to be straight but Morrigan really didn't.  Fereldens as a culture according to the codex tend to consider homosexuality odd (not immoral however) so Alistair who was raised apart of that culture would view homosexuality odd.  In addition, he was still a prince even if he hated it and nobles tended to be heterosexual at least for marriage.  Alistair was also apart of the chantry where marriage was a sacred bond between a man and a woman and rampant fornication (gay or straight) was frowned upon for an upcoming templar.  

Morrigan on the other hand was not raised apart of the Ferelden culture.  Anything she learned was from Flemeth who obviously did not care about that stuff at all.  She gave Morrigan her duty which would involve using men until they were spent but love and actual sexuality never seemed to be one of the lessons.  As a result she describes her relationship with a male warden as mutual respect of equals or something to that effect.  She also seems to be quite disturbed when telling Leliana about Flemeth's stories and that she was supposed to use men like that too.  In other words, Gaider left it perfectly reasonable for Morrigan to decide to have her mutual respect of equals with a female Warden (poor Aria) and still have her love freakout later on.  A female could persuade her just like a male could considering she wouldn't have any cultural bias against it anyway if she separates the relationship from her duty.  If Morrigan were bisexual, the only thing that would change in the game is that the Dark Ritual would only be slightly less creepy than a female warden in love with Alistair but still very doable (plus you could have a funny line from Alistair when he realizes you are essentially asking him to sleep with your girlfriend).  A bisexual Morrigan does not break her character or mess up the game in anyway.

bbfan13 wrote...

I know I'm getting way OT here but I'm interested.  You both seem to treat the romances as something that you have to do as opposed to something you choose to do.  In game the only difference is a cut scene and some different words at the end of the game so there is no in game benefit to having a relationship.  I ask because being a heterosexual male I have a lot more options in the games but the vast majority of my ME1, ME2 & DA:O playthoughs I never complete a romance because I simply have no interest in the potential partners in those games.  Fortunately for me, Isabela is coming.  Four games in and I finally get one I like.  If your relationship with Leliana makes no sense, don't have it.

With that said, I do roleplay characters who are interested so I can see the story lines just not my core character.

While it does seem that way from the snippet, in my full rant that is addressed.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 14 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[twincast]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I agree but the problem was Alistair had a perfectly justifiable reason to be straight but Morrigan really didn't.  Fereldens as a culture according to the codex tend to consider homosexuality odd (not immoral however) so Alistair who was raised apart of that culture would view homosexuality odd.  In addition, he was still a prince even if he hated it and nobles tended to be heterosexual at least for marriage.  Alistair was also apart of the chantry where marriage was a sacred bond between a man and a woman and rampant fornication (gay or straight) was frowned upon for an upcoming templar.  

Morrigan on the other hand was not raised apart of the Ferelden culture.  Anything she learned was from Flemeth who obviously did not care about that stuff at all.  She gave Morrigan her duty which would involve using men until they were spent but love and actual sexuality never seemed to be one of the lessons.  As a result she describes her relationship with a male warden as mutual respect of equals or something to that effect.  She also seems to be quite disturbed when telling Leliana about Flemeth's stories and that she was supposed to use men like that too.  In other words, Gaider left it perfectly reasonable for Morrigan to decide to have her mutual respect of equals with a female Warden (poor Aria) and still have her love freakout later on.  A female could persuade her just like a male could considering she wouldn't have any cultural bias against it anyway if she separates the relationship from her duty.  If Morrigan were bisexual, the only thing that would change in the game is that the Dark Ritual would only be slightly less creepy than a female warden in love with Alistair but still very doable (plus you could have a funny line from Alistair when he realizes you are essentially asking him to sleep with your girlfriend).  A bisexual Morrigan does not break her character or mess up the game in anyway.

apart (from) ≠ a part (of)

In fact it's pretty much the opposite.

[Legbiter]

The OP can go DIAF.



For all the above reasons stated.

[silentassassin264]

twincast wrote...

]apart (from) ≠ a part (of)

In fact it's pretty much the opposite.

Which is why I said she was not raised a part of.  True I should have said she was raised apart from Ferelden or at least made it more legible that I meant she was not raised in Ferelden but you get the point.  I am a chemistry major not an English major.  I get people who actually know English grammar to check my papers for me.

[Ju13es]

Boo-urns on everyone being bi-sexual.



It is a silly notion. Just like not everyone in the real world is bisexual, why on earth would everyone in a game be? Some people are strait, some are not, some are bi. Deal with it. There are plenty lesbians in the world i would like to bang/romance in real life but cant lol

[jlb524]

bbfan13 wrote...

I know I'm getting way OT here but I'm interested.  You both seem to treat the romances as something that you have to do as opposed to something you choose to do.  In game the only difference is a cut scene and some different words at the end of the game so there is no in game benefit to having a relationship.  I ask because being a heterosexual male I have a lot more options in the games but the vast majority of my ME1, ME2 & DA:O playthoughs I never complete a romance because I simply have no interest in the potential partners in those games.  Fortunately for me, Isabela is coming.  Four games in and I finally get one I like.  If your relationship with Leliana makes no sense, don't have it.

With that said, I do roleplay characters who are interested so I can see the story lines just not my core character.

Speaking for myself, I'm a bit of a sap and like love stories, most specifically and especially ones involving two females.  Unfortunately, it's rare to see these anywhere in popular media, especially video games.  If it's there, I'm going to do it and I will make a character to fit the romance.

It also has to do with how I roleplay.  I always create characters that are not me and I never see the PC as my self-insert.  I'm boring...I don't want to play as me.  Therefore, it's no biggie for me to tweak my PC a bit to suit the romanced character so I can enjoy the romance story as well as the main story and other character interactions.  However, for people who play self-inserts, I see how this is a problem.  So, it really doesn't have much to do with who I personally would want to romance.  Luckily, I ususally have liked most of the f/f romanceable females included in BW's past games.  Though, I also like and can appreciate a wide variety when it comes to women so I'm not surprised by that.

Modifié par jlb524, 14 janvier 2011 - 11:25 .

[Ryzaki]

..A bisexual Morrigan doesn't break character but a bi Alistair does?

The mind boggles. Truly.

Frankly I don't see how Morrigan who was raised to carried the OGB (I give Flemeth enough credit to assume she planned this all out centuries beforehand) and molded by Flemeth would be open to a sexual relationship that didn't bring her closer to that goal. Her whole life she has been taught how to manipulate men (even being taught (or told) some of the finer arts by the Black Widow Flemeth). How to use her body to manipulate them and please herself.

You don't even get the impression she's been around a lot of females from the way she acts.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 janvier 2011 - 11:57 .

[silentassassin264]

Ryzaki wrote...

..A bisexual Morrigan doesn't break character but a bi Alistair does?

The mind boggles. Truly.

Frankly I don't see how Morrigan who was raised to carried the OGB (I give Flemeth enough credit to assume she planned this all out centuries beforehand) and molded by Flemeth would be open to a sexual relationship that didn't bring her closer to that goal. Her whole life she has been taught how to manipulate men (even being taught (or told) some of the finer arts by the Black Widow Flemeth). How to use her body to manipulate them and please herself.

You don't even get the impression she's been around a lot of females from the way she acts.

You pointed out why I said what I said.   All Flemeth taught her was duty.  Morrigan never got to learn about love or ever worry about what she wanted.  That is why if you romance her as a guy, she has the freakout when she realizes she is in love.  Flemeth never told her about that and she did not plan on falling in love.  She hadn't been around a lot of males or females as she was just in the woods with Flemeth and Flemeth's victims.  And as I said before, her entry into love was from her mutual respect of equals thing.  There is no reason in her character she couldn't separate duty to have the Old God baby and her actual love fore a female warden.

[Kritanakom]

I only read the first few pages, but I think from what I've heard of the problem the OP has a compromise could be that there be a deep, engaging, heartstring-pulling, non-stereotypical SAME-SEX ONLY romance.

This would counterbalance how every available LI appears to be interested in the opposite sex but not everyone in the same sex.

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
You pointed out why I said what I said.   All Flemeth taught her was duty.  Morrigan never got to learn about love or ever worry about what she wanted.  That is why if you romance her as a guy, she has the freakout when she realizes she is in love.  Flemeth never told her about that and she did not plan on falling in love.  She hadn't been around a lot of males or females as she was just in the woods with Flemeth and Flemeth's victims.  And as I said before, her entry into love was from her mutual respect of equals thing.  There is no reason in her character she couldn't separate duty to have the Old God baby and her actual love fore a female warden.

The fact she is straight would. I know you're trying to argue that she could have been bisexual, but I'm just pointing out that if they did at any point make the decision that Morrigain = straight (IMO likely as a subversion of the seductress role), then there was a perfectly good reason for her not to be attracted to women.

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
You pointed out why I said what I said.   All Flemeth taught her was duty.  Morrigan never got to learn about love or ever worry about what she wanted.  That is why if you romance her as a guy, she has the freakout when she realizes she is in love.  Flemeth never told her about that and she did not plan on falling in love.  She hadn't been around a lot of males or females as she was just in the woods with Flemeth and Flemeth's victims.  And as I said before, her entry into love was from her mutual respect of equals thing.  There is no reason in her character she couldn't separate duty to have the Old God baby and her actual love fore a female warden.

The fact she is straight would. I know you're trying to argue that she could have been bisexual, but I'm just pointing out that if they did at any point make the decision that Morrigain = straight (IMO likely as a subversion of the seductress role), then there was a perfectly good reason for her not to be attracted to women.

The point of this exchange was I was saying that I wouldn't have minded if all the LIs were bisexual as long as it fit their character and background...I wouldn't want it to feel forced or disingenuous.  I pointed out why it would seem out of place for Alistair to be bisexual but why it would not have been character breaking for Morrigan to be bisexual.  Obviously she was written as straight in Origins so she wouldn't fall for a female warden, I was just using how she was written as an example of how they could have had characters bisexual without betraying their character.  

[Kane-Corr]

There will be a scene in DA2 where you, The Champion of Kirkwall, awaken to a bizarre setting. Laying around a campfire, you feel the presence of many people surrounding you, closing in on your stationary position. Then....you come to the realization that everyone is romanceable. All of your companions, from the start, call for your hand in romantic entaglement. This scene activated after the ten minute mark...and was thrown in last second due to the popular demand by the ravaging fanbase. The down-side however...is that once you pick one LI, the rest of your companions will either:

A) Fight you, fueled by anger.
Flee from your company.
C) Turn into Darkspawn.
D) Fight eachother.
E) None of the above.
F) All of the above.


Let it be so Bioware! We are counting on you!

Modifié par Kane-Corr, 15 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
The point of this exchange was I was saying that I wouldn't have minded if all the LIs were bisexual as long as it fit their character and background...I wouldn't want it to feel forced or disingenuous.  I pointed out why it would seem out of place for Alistair to be bisexual but why it would not have been character breaking for Morrigan to be bisexual.  Obviously she was written as straight in Origins so she wouldn't fall for a female warden, I was just using how she was written as an example of how they could have had characters bisexual without betraying their character. 

Morrigain's attraction to men and not women is important to her character, though. She legitimately sees men in a sexual light and delights in that. I don't think sexual naivety works for Morrigain as a character, and her being bisexual would effectively require that.

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...

Morrigain's attraction to men and not women is important to her character, though. She legitimately sees men in a sexual light and delights in that. I don't think sexual naivety works for Morrigain as a character, and her being bisexual would effectively require that.

Not really.  For the F/F Leliana romance, if you skipped the first time she flirted you get a second chance when you are like at the adore level.  For a F/F Morrigan romance it would just have to start differently because she wouldn't immediately try to lure you to her tent but when she gets to the part about how when she first saw you in the Korcari Wilds and you were obviously more potent than the fools you traveled with part, rather than forcing it to be platonic you could have the option to flirt with her and tell it is love and then start the romance on a less sexual note than inviting people to your tent since she would associate that with men anyway.  It is just that the game forces you into a sisterly love type of situation rather than romance because she was written as only straight.  Sure it would be tweaked a bit but the Male-Leliana and Female-Leliana romances weren't identical either.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 15 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
For a F/F Morrigan romance it would just have to start differently because she wouldn't immediately try to lure you to her tent but when she gets to the part about how when she first saw you in the Korcari Wilds and you were obviously more potent than the fools you traveled with part, rather than forcing it to be platonic you could have the option to flirt with her and tell it is love and then start the romance on a less sexual note than inviting people to your tent since she would associate that with men anyway. 

That still requires Morrigain to be naive. Basically it's a "open her eyes" plot. She's naive and can't appreciate how she would like it with a woman if she was with one.

But it's basically a naivety plot. I'd be like seducing a virgin.

It is just that the game forces you into a sisterly love type of situation rather than romance because she was written as only straight.  Sure it would be tweaked a bit but the Male-Leliana and Female-Leliana romances weren't identical either.

I think we're not on the same path.

Basically, my objection is that if we write a Morrigain that was never with a woman and wouldn't think on her own to do that, you need the female Warden to take the lead. But Morrigain not being sexually aggresive isn't consistent with her character.

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
For a F/F Morrigan romance it would just have to start differently because she wouldn't immediately try to lure you to her tent but when she gets to the part about how when she first saw you in the Korcari Wilds and you were obviously more potent than the fools you traveled with part, rather than forcing it to be platonic you could have the option to flirt with her and tell it is love and then start the romance on a less sexual note than inviting people to your tent since she would associate that with men anyway. 

That still requires Morrigain to be naive. Basically it's a "open her eyes" plot. She's naive and can't appreciate how she would like it with a woman if she was with one.

But it's basically a naivety plot. I'd be like seducing a virgin.

It is just that the game forces you into a sisterly love type of situation rather than romance because she was written as only straight.  Sure it would be tweaked a bit but the Male-Leliana and Female-Leliana romances weren't identical either.

I think we're not on the same path.

Basically, my objection is that if we write a Morrigain that was never with a woman and wouldn't think on her own to do that, you need the female Warden to take the lead. But Morrigain not being sexually aggresive isn't consistent with her character.

Well if seducing a virgin is what you want to compare it to, then yes.  I am claiming Morrigan was naive perhaps not "sexually" but romantically.  In the male romance, she is eager to invite you to her tent but as the relationship escalates, she gets confused and doesn't know what to do about it because she loves you but doesn't want to.  Morrigan spent her childhood under Flemeth associating sex with her duty not with love.  For her to fall for a female Warden you just jump that hurdle of her wanted to sleep with you immediately because she thinks that is what she is supposed to do and go straight to like the phase two part with Leliana.  When she tries to explain her feelings, you can either say "Yeah you are my friend.  We're like sisters." and Morrigan still gets all teary eyed and stuff or you tell her she is in love and run with it.  Of course the next conversation would probably lead to her wanting to break it off for the same reason she does with a male Warden but it will at least end the same way.  The difference is a F/F relationship with Morrigan wouldn't start off on carnal desire but the mushy romantic stuff.  

[Mistress9Nine]

AlexXIV wrote...

It was said many times. You may not have read it yet, but this is not like the first thread of it's kind.

My appologies then. I'm not an avid forumite nowadays. This place is scary most of the time.

[connorthedragonslayer]

I'm not completely against this idea but I think having sex-specific romances encourages you to play as a different character. I made a female warden pretty much solely so I could 'caboodle' with Alistair.

[adembroski11]

I'm surprised nobody's asked for surprise TS's yet.

This whole issue is becoming absurd. If they'd never included homosexual relationships in the first place, nobody ever would have said a word. Now that they've set that expectations, people feel the need to take the proverbial mile.

The old line is, "it's not a dating sim"... you wouldn't know it by glancing at the forums, would you?

Modifié par adembroski11, 15 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Well if seducing a virgin is what you want to compare it to, then yes.  I am claiming Morrigan was naive perhaps not "sexually" but romantically.  In the male romance, she is eager to invite you to her tent but as the relationship escalates, she gets confused and doesn't know what to do about it because she loves you but doesn't want to.

Right, she is very naive about love. But she is very sexually aggressive. For your idea to work, Morrigain has to basically have never seen or even been even remotely attracted to a woman her entire life, but deep down actually be attracted to women.

Morrigan spent her childhood under Flemeth associating sex with her duty not with love. 

No, she associated sex with power and control. She was taught seduction. And she did visit Lothering. She lived in the Korcari Wilds her entire life, but she did meet human beings. Morrigain would never have had to meet anyone who was a lesbian or bisexual, encounter books or stories about F/F sex, or otherwise consider the possibility that the same gender could have sex. Otherwise it's implausible that she, so sexually aggressive and focused on sex as a matter of control, would just never even consider women as potentially sexual targets.

For her to fall for a female Warden you just jump that hurdle of her wanted to sleep with you immediately because she thinks that is what she is supposed to do and go straight to like the phase two part with Leliana.  When she tries to explain her feelings, you can either say "Yeah you are my friend.  We're like sisters." and Morrigan still gets all teary eyed and stuff or you tell her she is in love and run with it. 

But you can't talk about loving her. You have to talk explicitly about having sex with her. It can't be about the emotion; it has to be about the sex. Remember, you're talking to a woman who thinks love is (i) 100% irrelevant to sex and (ii) a tremendous weakness and downside.

What I am saying is that if she doesn't think about you sexually, you have to get her to think about you in a sexual way. Whatever path you go down, Morrigain as written friend-zones a female Warden. You have to break out of that.

Of course the next conversation would probably lead to her wanting to break it off for the same reason she does with a male Warden but it will at least end the same way.  The difference is a F/F relationship with Morrigan wouldn't start off on carnal desire but the mushy romantic stuff. 

But the very thing I am saying is that breaks her character. Basically, Morrigain secretly loved the Warden (after all the time they spent toghether and all the things the male Warden did) but because of her upbringing and attitudes, didn't want to admit it to herself.

If she doesn't cosider women something she can be sexually attracted to, then having romantic thoughts about the same gender is basically out the window. Unless she was the kind to have these feelings about women in the first place, in which case given her attitudes about sex it's very strange that she would never have even kissed a woman to get her way.

ETA:

I'm not saying Morrigain can't be bi. Personally, I thought she was the F/F romance following DA:O. What I am saying though is that if Morrigain was bi, it wouldn't be consistent with her character to be sexually naive about women. She would need a bit of a re-write and her romance should still have the trigger for her to make a move.

Modifié par In Exile, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:55 .

[Saibh]

adembroski11 wrote...

I'm surprised nobody's asked for surprise TS's yet.

This whole issue is becoming absurd. If they'd never included homosexual relationships in the first place, nobody ever would have said a word. Now that they've set that expectations, people feel the need to take the proverbial mile.

The old line is, "it's not a dating sim"... you wouldn't know it by glancing at the forums, would you?

...Er, I definitely think people would have asked for gay options. Gay people don't disappear when they're not mentioned, and they don't spring into existence when they are mentioned, or if you hear a bell ring, or clap, or something.