685 réponses à ce sujet

[Liablecocksman]

In Exile wrote...
Well, no. A female Warden who refused the DR and took Alistair with her to the archdemon will always be overruled by Alistair who sacrifices his life to kill the archdemon. Removing the romance actually removes ths potential ending. It isn't the same plot.

I'll admit my ignorance on female wardens, and concede that I had no clue about what you just told me.

The plot is reactive. If you remove romances, you remove some of the endgame threads.

I see where you going with this.
I agree that one thing that would be cut out, that could be considered of some worth, would be the epilogues that come from having had a romance in the game.

However, your could also argue that the epilogues are, themselves, unimportant - and serve no other function than to tell the player how most of the stuff he or she was involved in, turned out. They aren't the ending, they are the end-credits, if you will.

I'm am trying to argue what is, and is not, important in the sense of the game itself. The epilogues do not affect the gameplay at all, just like the romances

[catabuca]

Liable****sman wrote...
 The epilogues do not affect the gameplay at all, just like the romances

Ahem. You've just seen that one romance in particular DOES affect the game play to the extent of influencing what happens in the final battle. Just saying.

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...
stuff that will be quoted later

Basically it seems we have interpreted the the tent invite in two different ways.  Your interpretation was that Morrigan decided that she liked the Warden and then decided to seduce him.  My interpretation of Morrigan and that gesture are rather different.
(cue rant)

In my view, Morrigan saw herself as a tool for Flemeth.  She was raised indoctrinated by Flemeth to serve a purpose and that was the only thing that mattered in her life.  Morrigan did not love or feel attraction to anyone male or female.  She didn't even love Flemeth as a mother.  As explained by her quest, Morrigan viewed survival (to accomplish her goal with the Old God) as the ultimate and everything was unimportant.  

Morrigan gave her tent invite not because of any attraction to the warden but because she wanted to control him.  The seduction was not out of pleasure.  When she tells her account of growing up with Flemeth raping men to death and expecting her to do it to Leliana, she seems to be traumatized from.  You mention her sexual aggressiveness but in my view, not was not out of any pleasure seeking or attraction but out of a since of duty like a programmed automaton.  Morrigan was trying to get the male warden to fall for her and be a lap dog more or less up into the dark ritual so she could just tell him to do what she wanted, he does it, and she leaves.  It was about power but just to accomplish her goal.

The problem Morrigan encounters is that she expected the relationship to stay at that level with the hopelessly enamored warden while she just patiently waits for her dark ritual.  Instead, spending time with the warden gets her to become enamored with him as well and when the warden explains it is love, she wants out because she doesn't want to be hurt or distracted from her goal which required her to leave anyway.  She doesn't fall in love until way after the tent incident and before that the warden is just a possession to accomplish a goal.

After you get her to give in to her feelings, Morrigan does not want to sleep with the male warden anymore.  This is because Morrigan associates sexuality with her [unpleasant] duty.  She has come to embrace the sappy emotional love but finds that this sexual aggression has no place in it. 

Therefore, 

In Exile wrote...


Right, she is very naive about love. But she is very sexually aggressive. For your idea to work, Morrigain has to basically have never seen or even been even remotely attracted to a woman her entire life, but deep down actually be attracted to women. 

No.  Morrigan was not attracted ANYONE and the warden male or female has to get her to fall for them.  

In Exile wrote...
But you can't talk about loving her. You have to talk explicitly about having sex with her. It can't be about the emotion; it has to be about the sex. Remember, you're talking to a woman who thinks love is (i) 100% irrelevant to sex and (ii) a tremendous weakness and downside. 

What I am saying is that if she doesn't think about you sexually, you have to get her to think about you in a sexual way. Whatever path you go down, Morrigain as written friend-zones a female Warden. You have to break out of that. 

For this we disagree.  As you said, Morrigan feels that love and sex are not related at all.  Therefore that time from the tent invite until her love freakout Morrigan was not in love with you as a male warden.  It was more of a smug confidence that she knew that she was going to get her way.  Once she accepts love you wouldn't have to bring up sex with her because she would reject that notion immediately.  

For a female Warden to romance her it would have to start at that part when Morrigan wants to express her feelings for you.  At that point, Morrigan is already around the love level on the relationship bar.  If we do what I said and add the option to say that it is love as well as the "yay we're sisters" option, Morrigan would do the same thing she with a male warden at that point.  You must remember, she never had a sister or close relationship with anyone.  After she spills her guts (as Leliana puts it) and you tell her it is love she would have nothing to compare it to.  It is not like she can explain that the attraction was definitely just sisterly love because she remembers Morrigan Prime.  And considering she was all crying mushy and slightly romantic anyway it wouldn't really be a stretch.

In Exile wrote...
But the very thing I am saying is that breaks her character. Basically, Morrigain secretly loved the Warden (after all the time they spent toghether and all the things the male Warden did) but because of her upbringing and attitudes, didn't want to admit it to herself.

If she doesn't cosider women something she can be sexually attracted to, then having romantic thoughts about the same gender is basically out the window. Unless she was the kind to have these feelings about women in the first place, in which case given her attitudes about sex it's very strange that she would never have even kissed a woman to get her way. 

Again, I am saying Morrigan did not love the male Warden until much later.  There was no secret love that caused her to seduce him or something.  Until she realized that she needed him/wanted to need him she did not love him.  It was not about her upbringing, she just didn't care until then.

When she does the crying to the female warden part, she is already past the using him sexually part.  It is already at the vulnerable I need her[him]/want her [him] part.  Sexuality is out of the equation here.  Using people as pawns is out.  Kissing the female warden to get her way is out of the question here.  The romance for a female warden Morrigan would start at same time she would be admitting real love for the male warden (more or less).

Hooray for alternate character interpretations.  Fueling internet debates since...the birth of the internet.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:15 .

[In Exile]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Basically it seems we have interpreted the the tent invite in two different ways.  Your interpretation was that Morrigan decided that she liked the Warden and then decided to seduce him.  My interpretation of Morrigan and that gesture are rather different.
(cue rant)

I don't think a quote war would work here, so I am going to address your post holistically.

My objection to your take on Morrigain is that is that it does not accurate account for how Morrigain sees sex as a tool for control. Yes, she certainly invites the Warden into her tent to try to lure the Warden into a physical relationship and bind the Warden closer to her. But she does not try this with Alistair if you refuse her. I don't know if the tent can trigger with low approval - but I would wager it cannot.

With the dark ritual (her actual duty) she shows up no matter what and always pitches it as a gain for you. Not as a sexual thing, but as a matter of survival.

It seems pretty clear that there is a fundamental dimension of atrraction, in this case physicality and (potentially) personality though not in any meaningful way that you can involve the concept of love in.

You are not right about her not truly loving her mother. There are cases were we see some feeling toward Flemeth. When she leaves and asks Flemeth not to burn down the hut, Flemeth chastizes her that the entire region could be overrun. This leaves her speechless.

You are confusing seduction with pleasure, as well. To want to seduce someone for the sake of control does not even require you be attracted to them - it just means you need to know how to push their buttons. Putting aside the fact we have a fair amount of dialogue from Morrigain that directly contradicts the idea that she does not like sex for pleasure, she could be using sex as a weapon without it being some kind of unfeeling automatic react

I think you are trying very hard to rationalize a Morrigain that is asexual and taught to be sexual to justify your preference for her as bisexual.

After you get her to give in to her feelings, Morrigan does not want to sleep with the male warden anymore.  This is because Morrigan associates sexuality with her [unpleasant] duty.  She has come to embrace the sappy emotional love but finds that this sexual aggression has no place in it.

That's wrong. If you push Morrigain and say you don't care, she says that she will be with you but that you will be hurt in the end. She does not outright stop having sex with you. She only wants to break up with you to avoid further hurting you (as a Male Warden).

No.  Morrigan was not attracted ANYONE and the warden male or female has to get her to fall for them. 

I am firmly of the opinion that you are starting from this conclusion and reasoning backwards.

For this we disagree.  As you said, Morrigan feels that love and sex are not related at all.  Therefore that time from the tent invite until her love freakout Morrigan was not in love with you as a male warden.  It was more of a smug confidence that she knew that she was going to get her way.  Once she accepts love you wouldn't have to bring up sex with her because she would reject that notion immediately. 

But sex is control. She tells you a story of how she used her raw female sexuality to have a passerby that accosted her taken away. She would not avoid controlling a female Warden wth sex (especially if you have a female Warden making overtures - she's not a moron, after all).

This is where I object to your theory. It relies on this issue that somehow she would only use her sexuality as a weapon against men, but never against bisexual women or lesbians.

It's like her wanting to cast fireball only against elves or something. It contradicts her core character wherein power and control are everything.

For a female Warden to romance her it would have to start at that part when Morrigan wants to express her feelings for you.  At that point, Morrigan is already around the love level on the relationship bar.  If we do what I said and add the option to say that it is love as well as the "yay we're sisters" option, Morrigan would do the same thing she with a male warden at that point.  You must remember, she never had a sister or close relationship with anyone.  After she spills her guts (as Leliana puts it) and you tell her it is love she would have nothing to compare it to.  It is not like she can explain that the attraction was definitely just sisterly love because she remembers Morrigan Prime.  And considering she was all crying mushy and slightly romantic anyway it wouldn't really be a stretch.

It's an absolute stretch, because it requires her to be sexually attracted to women. I am not saying this is impossible. Again, I am saying it directly contradicts her character for her to not be outright against the idea of sex with a woman. Otherwise she would have used sex to control women.

Again, I am saying Morrigan did not love the male Warden until much later.  There was no secret love that caused her to seduce him or something.  Until she realized that she needed him/wanted to need him she did not love him.  It was not about her upbringing, she just didn't care until then.

Love is irrelevant. She just needs to be physically attracted to the Warden. Are you honestly saying Morrigain is 100% asexual in terms of her attractions ?

Modifié par In Exile, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:02 .

[silentassassin264]

In Exile wrote...

You are not right about her not truly loving her mother. There are cases were we see some feeling toward Flemeth. When she leaves and asks Flemeth not to burn down the hut, Flemeth chastizes her that the entire region could be overrun. This leaves her speechless.

I am not saying she doesn't love Flemeth, I am saying that she took her mission to heart and she had to survive to accomplish it.  That means Flemeth had to "die" for her accomplish her goal.

You are confusing seduction with pleasure, as well. To want to seduce someone for the sake of control does not even require you be attracted to them - it just means you need to know how to push their buttons. Putting aside the fact we have a fair amount of dialogue from Morrigain that directly contradicts the idea that she does not like sex for pleasure, she could be using sex as a weapon without it being some kind of unfeeling automatic react.

No I am not.  That was my point.  Morrigan was seducing the male warden to use him as a tool.  I am saying she was not attracted to him and just wanted to control him.  You have a rather backwards way of agreeing with me.

That's wrong. If you push Morrigain and say you don't care, she says that she will be with you but that you will be hurt in the end. She does not outright stop having sex with you. She only wants to break up with you to avoid further hurting you (as a Male Warden).

Yes she does.  If you ask her to go for happy fun time she will outright say no once she reaches the love relationship level.  

No.  Morrigan was not attracted ANYONE and the warden male or female has to get her to fall for them. 

I am firmly of the opinion that you are starting from this conclusion and reasoning backwards.

Actually I am starting with that and going forward.

But sex is control. She tells you a story of how she used her raw female sexuality to have a passerby that accosted her taken away. She would not avoid controlling a female Warden wth sex (especially if you have a female Warden making overtures - she's not a moron, after all).

This is where I object to your theory. It relies on this issue that somehow she would only use her sexuality as a weapon against men, but never against bisexual women or lesbians.

It's like her wanting to cast fireball only against elves or something. It contradicts her core character wherein power and control are everything.

Yes she would.  That is my point.  Morrigan was all about accomplishing her goal of getting the old god baby (and whatever she is doing afterwards with it).  There was absolutely no point to try to control a female warden as barring some kinky Flemeth magic we don't know about, she could not get the Old God baby from a relationship with a female warden.  If Morrigan needed to control a lesbian to accomplish her mission (somehow?), I have no doubt in my mind she would have tried to seduce her (if she was allowed to be bisexual) but that never came up in Origins.  You seem to be implying my option to say that they were in love was actually in the game.  A female warden never gets the chance to flirt with Morrigan at all.

And Morrigan was an ice witch not fire witch.  She didn't even  come with fireballs.

It's an absolute stretch, because it requires her to be sexually attracted to women. I am not saying this is impossible. Again, I am saying it directly contradicts her character for her to not be outright against the idea of sex with a woman. Otherwise she would have used sex to control women.

Well yes it contradicts her character.  She was not bisexual in Origins.  I am writing this saying that she could have been written as bisexual and not break the story/character.  If she was bisexual and could be attracted to women, then that would not be an issue.

Love is irrelevant. She just needs to be physically attracted to the Warden. Are you honestly saying Morrigain is 100% asexual in terms of her attractions ?

Love is not irrelevant once she actually fell in love.  That is my point.  The actual romance with Morrigan did not start when you got the Witch gone wild achievement because that was all about control not romance.  She was doing that to control the warden to get him under her thumb for the dark ritual later.  Considering she didn't care to have sex once she does admit that you all are in love, yes it was asexual.  Morrigan separated sex with love if you actually try to talk to her about it afterwards.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:47 .

[Darth Death]

All this gayness is making my head hurt...

[Addai]

silentassassin264 wrote...
 Considering she didn't care to have sex once she does admit that you all are in love, yes it was asexual.  Morrigan separated sex with love if you actually try to talk to her about it afterwards.

That's just your interpretation.  I always saw that as Morrigan trying to back off because she was afraid that her feelings were getting too strong and would interfere with her duty.

[jlb524]

I must say...I don't see Morrigan as loving Flemeth at all. I think what we saw at the hut initially was a ruse in order to dupe the Warden into thinking Morrrigan and Flemeth have a somewhat normal mother/daughter relationship.



Also, I don't think Morrigan went to Alistair as she hates his guts, to put it bluntly.

[Negix]

jlb524 wrote...

I must say...I don't see Morrigan as loving Flemeth at all. I think what we saw at the hut initially was a ruse in order to dupe the Warden into thinking Morrrigan and Flemeth have a somewhat normal mother/daughter relationship.

Also, I don't think Morrigan went to Alistair as she hates his guts, to put it bluntly.

she wouldn't really have a chance anyways. alistair would propably just laugh at her and start making jokes about her or something xD.

[Zaros]

prazision wrote...

Perhaps it is too late for this game (I hope not, as there are two full months left and we have hardly any non-alpha footage so far) but hear me out:
1. The Basic Approach.
In BioWare games, no matter what your PC's appearance or personality is, LIs (of the "appropriate" gender) will fall in love with you. This establishes, quote strongly, that the intent behind the romances is that the PC is "irresistable" - Leliana will fall in love with you if you're a svelt, gorgeous Elf or an ugly, pudgy Dwarf.
Given that, I think this concept should be extended to gender.
Whatever gender you play, the game orients itself to you - play a female Warden, and Morrigan is a lesbian. Play a male Warden, Alistair is gay.

That would be kind of dull though. Having everyone fawning over the main character seems like too much of a recipe for a Mary Sue, not to mention the fact that I kind of like the exclusivity or certain romances, as well as the verying tastes each of my allies have.

[Blacklash93]

Gay players are just worried they're going to get Fenris (the elf). I'd bet money that's the very cause of this topic's conception.



You might end up with the LI you don't want. Erasing such a concern isn't worth compromising a game's believability.

[Jimmy Fury]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Gay players are just worried they're going to get Fenris (the elf). I'd bet money that's the very cause of this topic's conception.

You might end up with the LI you don't want. Erasing such a concern isn't worth compromising a game's believability.

Please don't assume the request of one person in any way represents the whole of gay players everywhere.
Indeed, many of us have already said we disagree with the OP. We of all people know that some folks just aren't bi.

[Liablecocksman]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Please don't assume the request of one person in any way represents the whole of gay players everywhere.
Indeed, many of us have already said we disagree with the OP. We of all people know that some folks just aren't bi.

Don't think we aren't secretly flattered when you come and grope us.
Although we do feel treated like sex-objects!!!

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 16 janvier 2011 - 12:52 .

[Isaidlunch]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Gay players are just worried they're going to get Fenris (the elf). I'd bet money that's the very cause of this topic's conception.

You might end up with the LI you don't want. Erasing such a concern isn't worth compromising a game's believability.

It's really just the OP, I'm worried that we're going to get "Anders" as the M/M LI and even I disagree with the OP. Sure, it would be nice to pick and choose which guy to romance but I don't like having a character's sexuality based on what the player wants. I agree with most of the arguments against it in this thread.

[Jimmy Fury]

Liable****sman wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Please don't assume the request of one person in any way represents the whole of gay players everywhere.
Indeed, many of us have already said we disagree with the OP. We of all people know that some folks just aren't bi.

Don't think we aren't secretly flattered when you come and grope us.
Although we do feel treated like sex-objects!!!

wha?

I suspect I should be disturbed or, at the very least, should be protesting the allegation of wanting to grope you...
But i'm far too confused to be certain.

[Liablecocksman]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
I suspect I should be disturbed or, at the very least, should be protesting the allegation of wanting to grope you...
But i'm far too confused to be certain.

Well I was being a little vague regarding the intent of my post.
It's just a little disconcerting, when being straight, to be groped by another man(or obviously flirted with).

I mean, I was just poking a bit of fun at your "We of all people know that some folks just aren't bi.", given that you're entirely correct in that regard.

Now, I'm not saying you're walking around groping everyone, this is just one of the cases I could provide some sort of real-life anecdote. Suffice to say, maybe it was a little out of place 

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:15 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Liable****sman wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
I suspect I should be disturbed or, at the very least, should be protesting the allegation of wanting to grope you...
But i'm far too confused to be certain.

Well I was being a little vague regarding the intent of my post.
It's just a little disconcerting, when being straight, to be groped by another man(or obviously flirted with).

I mean, I was just poking a bit of fun at your "We of all people know that some folks just aren't bi.", given that you're entirely correct in that regard.

Now, I'm not saying you're walking around groping everyone, this is just one of the cases I could provide some sort of real-life anecdote. Suffice to say, maybe it was a little out of place 

Oh. I see. I think.
Not out of place so much as... nonsensical? I'll just assume there's some underlying angle that I'm not getting.

[adembroski11]

Razaroh wrote...

adembroski11 wrote...

I'm surprised nobody's asked for surprise TS's yet.

This whole issue is becoming absurd. If they'd never included homosexual relationships in the first place, nobody ever would have said a word. Now that they've set that expectations, people feel the need to take the proverbial mile.

The old line is, "it's not a dating sim"... you wouldn't know it by glancing at the forums, would you?

You know them minorities, give 'em an inch and then they want the whole football field.

wow, that's right, insert your natural instictive reaction because if it makes you feel better. Look at my post history here, and you'll see I'm absolutely behind Bioware taking these steps and breaking this ground... but the damn threads about it have become ridiculous. When you have a thread that's essencially outright asking that everyone in the game be bisexual, is that not a bit absurd?

I'm sure every game relationships had a few people asking why gay relationships were never considered, but I promise you, they didn't have a thread made daily to promote it the way this one does. This isn't about political correctness (which is essencially a conscious decision to become stupid), it's simply about people not having realistic expectations, and putting it on the company who broke the ground in the first place to hold themselves to some higher standard than everyone else.

I've seen posts (in past threads on the subject) actually accusing Bioware of homophobia in a round about way because they didn't include enough homosexual options. Who else has been as inclusive as Bioware? In all honesty, this stuff fits better in Mass Effect, where it's not so anachornistic to talk so openly about it.

[Ryzaki]

Kazanth wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Gay players are just worried they're going to get Fenris (the elf). I'd bet money that's the very cause of this topic's conception.

You might end up with the LI you don't want. Erasing such a concern isn't worth compromising a game's believability.

It's really just the OP, I'm worried that we're going to get "Anders" as the M/M LI and even I disagree with the OP. Sure, it would be nice to pick and choose which guy to romance but I don't like having a character's sexuality based on what the player wants. I agree with most of the arguments against it in this thread.

I'm pretty much of the same opinion.

I just disagree with the whole "It can't be done believebly." bit.

[deirae]

Wow, just......wow.

[Todd23]

although I don't want everyone to be bi, I can see the apeal, let a femHawke scissor Aveline, while a mHawke rednecks Bethany, it's simply the freedom.

[Ninja Mage]

Good thing I have an elf fetish then

[The Flying Dutchman 10]

I also wouldn't like every character to be bisexual.
Also, do you mean that every character should be a LI? I coulnd't quite understand.

[JohnCena94]

The Flying Dutchman 10 wrote...

I also wouldn't like every character to be bisexual.
Also, do you mean that every character should be a LI? I coulnd't quite understand.

I agree also

Modifié par JohnCena94, 18 janvier 2011 - 01:48 .

[Stormghost]

I think I understand what the OP was getting at, and I agree with him.



It's not so much making every character bisexual, it's making the love interests potential romances for any Hawke. A bit like in 'The Sims' games, any Sim has the potential to be flirted with etc. but it doesn't mean every character in The Sims is bisexual.