685 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Elite Midget wrote...

Trying to associate me with cults or take a sarcastic tone with me?

No, I said your position reminds me of those things.  But that it was at least more justified than them because homophobia does exist.  I even said precisely that.

Elite Midget wrote...

I see how it is...

You don't.  You really don't.

Elite Midget wrote...

You truely are fine with this unjust discrimination

I'm truly fine with Dragon Age 2 not being a vehicle for social justice simply for the sake of it.

Elite Midget wrote...

and are no resorting to personal attacks because you don't desire that justice ever be done for Gays/Lesbians.

I'm resorting to discrediting your position because it is totally baseless.  And I'm saying that as someone who is sympathetic to the position of those who desire S/S romances in videogames. 

Elite Midget wrote...

Apparantly they aren't 'worth it' an a 'waste of resources' that should be managed on more 'important' tasks such as 5 missable Characters and the ability to have 9 of them dead!

See, here's a great example of your terrible arguments.  You're putting quotes around terms as if to say I used them, when I did not, and then constructed a strawman to counter what you're fabricating is my position.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:23 .

[elearon1]

Actually, it's almost impossible that aliens don't exist, considering the size of the universe (even the galaxy) and then the added likelihood of additional dimensions. Most scientists seem to admit it is likely, the contention is whether or not they've been here ... who knows?



Midget's arguments are being paranoid. While I understand he is bothered by the fact that homosexuals are not being addressed directly in the game, what he fails to grasp is that even including bisexuals is a risky step for a game company to take - one many have shied away from in the past and continue to do so to this day. So far as I'm aware, Bioware is the first crpg company to make a game which allowed same sex relationships (Baldur's Gate II, as I recall) and has continued to remain at the forefront of the "sexual revolution" movement in computer games. But progress comes slowly and when there are still huge anti-gay demonstrations being held openly in American cities, and anti-gay marriage legislations pushed through the system, adding a purely homosexual character to a game would simply be too dangerous from a marketing standpoint. Midget has to recall that Bioware is a BIG BUSINESS and as such cannot take as many chances as some smaller businesses can ... it has to see a certain return on its investment in order to continue making high quality video games and if something like a gay romance inclusion backfired they might not be able to include romance in their next release at all.



Have faith that they will get there *when the market makes it feasible to do so*; and if I had to put money on the line, I'd be willing to bet Bioware will be the company to break that "gay romance in a triple A rpg game" barrier.

[Bryy_Miller]

Elite Midget wrote...
This resource management excuse is dicrimination plain and simple.

How do you figure? Time, money, computer space, milestones/deadline... it's all limited. Nothing is finite. 

[Elite Midget]

It isn't that hard to see what has happened and is continueing 'to' happen. That is the truth that I see and it is truely mesed up. What's worse is that Bioware is useing a 'convient' excuse to discriminate against Gays/Lesbians when we have games like New Vegas that has a Gay and Lesbian closely carved into it's story and the game 'still' sold millions.

[Bryy_Miller]

Elite, I don't think anyone is arguing that homophobia does not exist. It just doesn't exist where you're seeing it.

[AlexXIV]

Elite Midget wrote...

It isn't that hard to see what has happened and is continueing 'to' happen. That is the truth that I see and it is truely mesed up. What's worse is that Bioware is useing a 'convient' excuse to discriminate against Gays/Lesbians when we have games like New Vegas that has a Gay and Lesbian closely carved into it's story and the game 'still' sold millions.

Just to sate my curiousity, who is the gay. And btw. FO:NV doesn't feature any romance at all as far as I know. Just having gays or lesbians in the game would probably be rather easy if they don't require to be LIs.

[David Gaider]

Elite Midget wrote...
It isn't that hard to see what has happened and is continueing 'to' happen. That is the truth that I see and it is truely mesed up. What's worse is that Bioware is useing a 'convient' excuse to discriminate against Gays/Lesbians when we have games like New Vegas that has a Gay and Lesbian closely carved into it's story and the game 'still' sold millions.

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

I'll point out, first off, that the New Vegas characters had very little romance to speak of, as well as no cinematics involved with said romance. Thus their "romance" is very cheap. We'd have nothing against having a strictly gay or lesbian character in our games... so long as you couldn't romance them. Our romances make for very costly content, after all, by our own choice. That's how we want to do them, and thus it affects just how much we can dole out. It's not candy.

If you prefer to think we should create content without any regard for reason, and only think of how much "justice" it provides to people-- and that anything else is a cover up-- well, that's super. But we do not have the luxury to think that way.

Perhaps you might want to seek out the comments I've made previously with regards to the cost of romances and why things are as they are. Or maybe you have and you simply choose to see it your way anyhow. That's too bad-- despite the fact that games aren't much of a vehicle for "social justice" I think we've been pretty even-handed in keeping as much content as we can for a small group of our fanbase... yet evidently that's simply not enough for some folks. Again, too bad.

As it is, let's pull this back to the topic at hand and keep things civil, shall we? Or we shall have yet another thread closed down, not by homophobia but by militant campaigners who evidently can't see the forest for the trees. Which, again, is too bad.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:35 .

[Elite Midget]

It's Arcade the Genius Scientist/Medic. Member of the Followers of the Apocolapse... The guy with the sweet Enclave Armor Heirloom?



I do admit that there are no 'real' LIs in NV but there are those of the same and different gender that you can spend time under the sheets with. It's truely eye opening that a game will have a male character who outright declines all female advances and states that he only dines with men so to speak.

[upsettingshorts]

Elite Midget wrote...

What's worse is that Bioware is useing a 'convient' excuse to discriminate against Gays/Lesbians when we have games like New Vegas that has a Gay and Lesbian closely carved into it's story and the game 'still' sold millions.

If you're arguing that Arcade Gannon and Veronica Santangelo are great examples of what a company like Bioware should do in their games, I think a lot of people who want a satisfying S/S experience in their game would be very disappointed.

There are some characters in New Vegas that are gay. Some are bi. Some are straight. But the way the game deals with sexuality as a whole is about as deep as a puddle. But that's fine, because the game isn't really about the characters in that way.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[Elite Midget]

Still doesn't change that you made 5 characters missable in Dragon Age Origins yet somehow that isn't seen as wasteful. Especially since some of those characters are romance options as well. It is wrong and yet you tell me that it's too costly?



As a person who has seen many Gays/Lesbians treated unfairly I have learned to never back down on anything on the subject no matter how small. To do nothing is worse than those that mistreat others. I would never allow myself to drop to the same level as those that mistreat others because they love the same gender since doing so would be spitting in the faces of all of the Gay/Lesbian friends I've ever made.



That is why I cannot take the resource excuse since Bioware has shown in the past that it isn't shy of throwing things in that 'many' would see as a waste of resources. Yet when the subject of a Gay/Lesbian comes up it somehow isn't deemed cost efficient.

[Elite Midget]

It is a big first step and many modern game developers would have never thought of doing the such. Hell, Bioware even covered up the Lesbian(More so Bisexual) relationship in ME despite the game itself stateing that Asari are women and Liara even stateing that she was a woman yet still attracted to Shepard. That tells you something when they would even deny what they had created. That and Liara is one of the most popular character in the ME franchise.



Than we later learn that Ashley was supposed to be Bisexual and perhaps even Kaiden but for some reason that was removed? Well, it isn't hard to figure out why after the whole Fox News thing that gained Bioware fans and shamed Fox News.

[AlexXIV]

Elite Midget wrote...

It is a big first step and many modern game developers would have never thought of doing the such. Hell, Bioware even covered up the Lesbian(More so Bisexual) relationship in ME despite the game itself stateing that Asari are women and Liara even stateing that she was a woman yet still attracted to Shepard. That tells you something when they would even deny what they had created. That and Liara is one of the most popular character in the ME franchise.

Than we later learn that Ashley was supposed to be Bisexual and perhaps even Kaiden but for some reason that was removed? Well, it isn't hard to figure out why after the whole Fox News thing that gained Bioware fans and shamed Fox News.

I agree with that about ME. But it belongs in the ME forum. None here are responsible for what you just wrote there.

Edit: Also lesbian/gay gamers are a minority of Bioware customers. Minorities are always disadvantaged. But that's not Bioware fault, it's how the world is. Bioware is making games to make profit, not to change the world. At least not primarily.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:50 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ah, this kind of militancy is familiar. Time to go.

[Errol Dnamyx]

Last time I've checked, there were gay/lesbian romance options in Bioware games.

So, what are you raging at? That everyone is not getting it on with everyone?

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:55 .

[Wishpig]

Elite Midget wrote...
 I have learned to never back down on anything on the subject no matter how small.

That strikes me as a bad trait....

Modifié par Wishpig, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Elite Midget wrote...
 It is wrong and yet you tell me that it's too costly?

It's seen as wrong to you, the customer, when it is seen as too expensive to them, the people with the budget.

As a person who has seen many Gays/Lesbians treated unfairly I have learned to never back down on anything on the subject no matter how small.

Okay, well... at some point, you should probably go "it's a video game" and walk away. I mean, seriously. There are much bigger (and real life) things you could be doing than arguing that a video game company (and it's forums) are bigots.

I would never allow myself to drop to the same level as those that mistreat others because they love the same gender since doing so would be spitting in the faces of all of the Gay/Lesbian friends I've ever made.

I know a lot of gays and lesbians that would be facepalmy at how you are acting. 

That is why I cannot take the resource excuse since Bioware has shown in the past that it isn't shy of throwing things in that 'many' would see as a waste of resources.

Yes, BioWare does throw in things the majority of players will play, because that's cost efficient. Throwing in a side thing that only a few people will play is not cost efficient.

Yet when the subject of a Gay/Lesbian comes up it somehow isn't deemed cost efficient.

Quit acting like homosexuality is the only thing that gets cut from games ever. It's not. 

[elearon1]

>>It's truely eye opening that a game will have a male character who outright declines all female advances and states that he only dines with men so to speak.<<



Seriously? If that is all it takes to impress you - the very shallow relationships in NV - then why not just imagine someone in the game to be gay and be done with it? I bet if I actually played through DA:O with an eye for it I could pick out half a dozen supporting characters I'd tag as gay, though it isn't outright stated. (in fact the armor smiths - pretty important supporting characters in Origins and Awakenings, both - are openly [one might say "fabulously"] gay)



I can fairly well assure you that were I to poll the gay gamers' forum I frequent the vast majority of them would prefer the depth of the bisexual relationships Zev and Leliana provided than the brush by Veronica offered.

[David Gaider]

Elite Midget wrote...
Still doesn't change that you made 5 characters missable in Dragon Age Origins yet somehow that isn't seen as wasteful. Especially since some of those characters are romance options as well. It is wrong and yet you tell me that it's too costly?

We're not arguing that everyone must see content in order for it to be considered cost-efficient. The difference is how many people could see it (or use it, in the case of followers). In the case of characters that are optional to get in the first place, that's still everyone. In the case of gay romances, that only applies to the percentage of people that would even be interested in the content to begin with.

Which is not insignificant. I've never said that our gay fans are insignificant or even implied such-- it's simply small, and thus our willingness to provide content must be realistic in its application. You can ignore that if you wish, but we have no agenda here... unlike yourself.

And once again, for the last time, I'd suggest putting this topic aside. This is not the point of this thread, and will inevitably get this closed.

[Errol Dnamyx]

David Gaider wrote...


Which is not insignificant. I've never said that our gay fans are insignificant or even implied such-- it's simply small, and thus our willingness to provide content must be realistic in its application. You can ignore that if you wish, but we have no agenda here... unlike yourself.
.

Lies! Your agenda is to earn money! Why don't you admit it already?

heh.

[AlexXIV]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


Which is not insignificant. I've never said that our gay fans are insignificant or even implied such-- it's simply small, and thus our willingness to provide content must be realistic in its application. You can ignore that if you wish, but we have no agenda here... unlike yourself.
.

Lies! Your agenda is to earn money! Why don't you admit it already?

heh.

If you mean survival, that's everyone's agenda.

[elearon1]

AlexXIV wrote...

If you mean survival, that's everyone's agenda.

That's not true, that's impossible!  

Darth Maslow: Search your feelings ... 

[Jimmy Fury]

AlexXIV wrote...

arcane-weirdo wrote...

Sooooooo, the big poobah is here?
*begins assault*
who are the LI's!?
which ones are bi!?
*ends assault*

Jimmy is the straight male, Johnny the bisexual.
Jane is the straight female, while Jill is bisexual.

Slander and hearsay! I shall not abide such lies sir! LIES!

On a more serious note (is that even possible anymore?)

Elite Midget wrote...
As a person who has seen many
Gays/Lesbians treated unfairly I have learned to never back down on
anything on the subject no matter how small. To do nothing is worse than
those that mistreat others. I would never allow myself to drop to the
same level as those that mistreat others because they love the same
gender since doing so would be spitting in the faces of all of the
Gay/Lesbian friends I've ever made.

Elite, while your enthusiasm is most appreciated... It's ok to back down some times. It really really is...

When a bunch of gay people don't think it's homophobic... it's probably safe to chill on the accusations of homophobia

[Bryy_Miller]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

David Gaider wrote...


Which is not insignificant. I've never said that our gay fans are insignificant or even implied such-- it's simply small, and thus our willingness to provide content must be realistic in its application. You can ignore that if you wish, but we have no agenda here... unlike yourself.
.

Lies! Your agenda is to earn money! Why don't you admit it already?

heh.

I enjoy that your avatar is the Only Don Draper. 

[Maria Caliban]

I don't get it.

Why in a thread full of somewhat reasonable posters is everyone responding to the obviously bats**t insane one?

[Blastback]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't get it.

Why in a thread full of somewhat reasonable posters is everyone responding to the obviously bats**t insane one?

It's like moths to flame.  It just can't be helped.