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[Joy Divison]

Wow. If you think Morrigan isn't a ****, you are clearly seeing what you want to. Morrigan is the easiest to bed, requiring only a 51 approval, and her comments afterward don't exactly conjure the image that it was her first time.

[David Gaider]

jlb524 wrote...
I think some just don't want to share their treasured LI with the other gender. But, as mentioned by others, I don't think it should matter what others do in their games.

I recall, after Jade Empire came out, there were a number of female gamers who were upset that their only LI, Sky, was shared with male players. His sexuality was subjective, but they felt their already small "share" of the romances was lessened by having him also available to male gamers (or female gamers playing male characters) in other games/realities.

Rational? Not really, especially considering that it involves a metagaming aspect that only someone who, say, comes to the forums or goes online to find out all the possibilities would even know about. But the element of possessiveness exists even so. Not that this is necessarily a reason to do or not do romances in such a manner, just that there's always going to be complaints from some corner.

[Ailith Tycane]

David Gaider wrote...


I recall, after Jade Empire came out, there were a number of female gamers who were upset that their only LI, Sky, was shared with male players. His sexuality was subjective, but they felt their already small "share" of the romances was lessened by having him also available to male gamers (or female gamers playing male characters) in other games/realities.

-_________________-

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Matchy Pointy]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I think some just don't want to share their treasured LI with the other gender. But, as mentioned by others, I don't think it should matter what others do in their games.

I recall, after Jade Empire came out, there were a number of female gamers who were upset that their only LI, Sky, was shared with male players. His sexuality was subjective, but they felt their already small "share" of the romances was lessened by having him also available to male gamers (or female gamers playing male characters) in other games/realities.

Rational? Not really, especially considering that it involves a metagaming aspect that only someone who, say, comes to the forums or goes online to find out all the possibilities would even know about. But the element of possessiveness exists even so. Not that this is necessarily a reason to do or not do romances in such a manner, just that there's always going to be complaints from some corner.

Couldnt female characters there also romance the princess (I suck at remembering names today)? Though maybe it was their only male LI that it was about.

[Addai]

Ailith430 wrote...
But if it wasnt established and varried depending on the player and weather or not they show romantic interest, that wouldnt make everyone bi, it would mean their sexuality changes game per game, which I don;t think would have such an earth shattering effect most people seem to. Sexuality doesnt define a person, it;s just a part of who they are. you can make believeable characters either way.

That's a matter of opinion really.  I can't imagine an iteration of myself where I wasn't into the dudes.  So it's at least part of how I'd define myself.  I know it's a popular idea that sexuality is fluid, but that's not true from my perspective.

However it's handled in a game, I just don't want to be preached at.  I play to be entertained and occasionally moved.  I hate it when movies turn preachy, self-consciously about a "cause," and I'd hate it in a game, too.  Just tell a story dammit.  I think DA did this very well.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[David Gaider]

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Couldnt female characters there also romance the princess (I suck at remembering names today)? Though maybe it was their only male LI that it was about.

Yes, it was that their only male romantic character was "tainted" by the fact that, in some games, he had a romance with male PC's-- even if he was straight in the game they were playing. Considering male players had two romances, this evidently compounded the insult.

Did every female gamer feel this way? No, not even close. Yet the laments were consistent, and perhaps tied more to the perception (at the time) of female gamers being a maligned minority given unfair balance in the romance department. Sound familiar?

[jlb524]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

Couldnt female characters there also romance the princess (I suck at remembering names today)? Though maybe it was their only male LI that it was about.

Yes, they could, but Sky was the only male LI.

I guess it's not a biggie for me as I always have to 'share' my LI with dudes, given that I pick the f/f option in every game.

[syllogi]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I think some just don't want to share their treasured LI with the other gender. But, as mentioned by others, I don't think it should matter what others do in their games.

I recall, after Jade Empire came out, there were a number of female gamers who were upset that their only LI, Sky, was shared with male players. His sexuality was subjective, but they felt their already small "share" of the romances was lessened by having him also available to male gamers (or female gamers playing male characters) in other games/realities.

Rational? Not really, especially considering that it involves a metagaming aspect that only someone who, say, comes to the forums or goes online to find out all the possibilities would even know about. But the element of possessiveness exists even so. Not that this is necessarily a reason to do or not do romances in such a manner, just that there's always going to be complaints from some corner.

Did you see the reaction from some Alistair fans to the intimation that Alistair and Leliana were romantically involved in the alternate reality of the Darkspawn Chronicles?  I don't think it's even a matter of sharing the LI with another gender...they just don't want their LI romancing anyone else, and somehow a gender switched version of Hawke doesn't qualify as "their" character anymore.

Especially now that the main character is voiced, I expect people to choose "sides" in the Male vs. Female protagonist debate, as people have regarding MaleShepard and FemaleShepard.  This, of course, will lead to romance options being seen as "right" for one version of Hawke over another.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[The Accused]

Humans are creatures of habit and we enjoy possessing things that others cannot have. It's in our nature and sadly few humans overcome what has been dictated to us by laws we cannot see nor understand.

[Jimmy Fury]

David Gaider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I think some just don't want to share their treasured LI with the other gender. But, as mentioned by others, I don't think it should matter what others do in their games.

I recall, after Jade Empire came out, there were a number of female gamers who were upset that their only LI, Sky, was shared with male players. His sexuality was subjective, but they felt their already small "share" of the romances was lessened by having him also available to male gamers (or female gamers playing male characters) in other games/realities.

Rational? Not really, especially considering that it involves a metagaming aspect that only someone who, say, comes to the forums or goes online to find out all the possibilities would even know about. But the element of possessiveness exists even so. Not that this is necessarily a reason to do or not do romances in such a manner, just that there's always going to be complaints from some corner.

See, I can't help but find that train of thought extremely odd. Particularly on these forums where the tiniest hint of an option being removed is hailed as the 4th horseman of the apocalypse because it would destroy replayability and player control...  yet people are so very quick to metagame LI's and declare any variation non-existent.
I had this discussion once with someone who took that same general stance that the metagame options meant the character would have to be bisexual.
I asked if that meant Shepard (it was an ME board discussion) was intersexed since both male and female shepards are options from a meta-view.... I don't think he ever answered that...

[HolyAvenger]

I'm all for it if they can do it believably and without robbing some other, more important part of the game for resources.



I don't buy the argument about sexuality in others' games. Heck I'm a straight guy playing a female PC who is currently romancing both Zevran and Leliana after playing a male PC who romanced Morrigan and Leli.

[Ailith Tycane]

Addai67 wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...
But if it wasnt established and varried depending on the player and weather or not they show romantic interest, that wouldnt make everyone bi, it would mean their sexuality changes game per game, which I don;t think would have such an earth shattering effect most people seem to. Sexuality doesnt define a person, it;s just a part of who they are. you can make believeable characters either way.

That's a matter of opinion really.  I can't imagine an iteration of myself where I wasn't into the dudes.  So it's at least part of how I'd define myself.  I know it's a popular idea that sexuality is fluid, but that's not true from my perspective.

However it's handled in a game, I just don't want to be preached at.  I play to be entertained and occasionally moved.  I hate it when movies turn preachy, self-consciously about a "cause," and I'd hate it in a game, too.  Just tell a story dammit.

Well, who you are attracted to doesn't change your underlying characterisitcs. Your sexuality doesnt affect your hobbies or interests or your attitude or overall personality. In some instances it does, like with the flamboyantly gay flag waving 20 year old, or the super macho beer drinking frat boy 20 year old. Both are at stages in their lives where their sexuality is a big deal, but eventually grow out of it. I think you would agree seeing either of those steriotypes, except replacing the 20 year old part with say, 35 would be a little ridiculous.

I'm not saying sexual preferneces arent important to who a person is, but it doesnt and shouldnt define them. I like movies, video games, fancy cameras and photogrophy, and I happen to like women. They arent related, and the liking women part doesnt define my characteristics, my interests and experiences do, and the same should be said for charatcers in an RPG.

Modifié par Ailith430, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:30 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, is what this all sounds like to me.



I just wanna play the game. *grabby hands* I won't be offended, I promise!

[The Accused]

Though eventually didn't that lead to female characters in future games getting their own LI that isn't shared mutually with a man? I believe the romances are quite equal now between Straight men and Straight women. Look at the ME series, after all.



It is only a matter of time before the same happens to the other minority that has replaced the female minority in this case.

[Wishpig]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, is what this all sounds like to me.

I just wanna play the game. *grabby hands* I won't be offended, I promise!

That's the story of videogame forums in general.

It always amazes me how vastly different two people can be... what one LOVES another can absolutely HATE. Must be a real headache for game devs!

Modifié par Wishpig, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:39 .

[AlexXIV]

The Accused wrote...

Though eventually didn't that lead to female characters in future games getting their own LI that isn't shared mutually with a man? I believe the romances are quite equal now between Straight men and Straight women. Look at the ME series, after all.

It is only a matter of time before the same happens to the other minority that has replaced the female minority in this case.

It is not the same though. Being gay can bring a lot of problems which 'normal' relationships don't. If for example Alistair had been gay, and everyone knew it I wonder if Arl Eamon would still have suggested him as heir, if Anora had been willing to marry him or if even Alistair would have wanted to become king, since it would require an heir etc. Not trying to be narrow-minded here but including gay people in a game always also includes a sort of tragedy. And maybe writers just don't feel like it. If people think sexual orientation has nothing to do with the personality then I wonder how much thought they put into this statement. I mean it is the experiences you go through in life that form your personality or not?

[Addai]

Ailith430 wrote...
I'm not saying sexual preferneces arent important to who a person is, but it doesnt and shouldnt define them. I like movies, video games, fancy cameras and photogrophy, and I happen to like women. They arent related, and the liking women part doesnt define my characteristics, my interests and experiences do, and the same should be said for charatcers in an RPG.

It's hard for me to separate it though.  I mean, maybe in my non-dating phases, but I'm married- I'd say it's shaped my life, interests and experiences a lot.  How that applies in a video game, well I guess it's more believable to me if you encounter a variety of types of NPCs.

[The Accused]

Alistair had problems with messing around with anyone that wasen't a Human Noble. Alistair can still get an heir from other means. It wasen't uncommon for Kings of old to have an unhappy forced marriage but having a Lover or two on the side who is hidden from the view of the world. There are many instances where that other lover was a man. Especially for Medieval Europe and the Shengoku Era of Japan.

Modifié par The Accused, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:42 .

[AlexXIV]

The Accused wrote...

Alistair had problems with messing around with anyone that wasen't a Human Noble. Alistair can still get an heir from other means. It wasen't uncommon for Kings of old to have an unhappy forced marriage but having a Lover or two on the side who is hidden from the view of the world. There are many instances where that other lover was a man. Especially for Medieval Europe and the Shengoku Era of Japan.

And Alistair wasn't fond of the idea to keep a lover while he is married to someone else. Maybe because of his own family and his father bedding random servants. Just saying that sexual orientation changes the personality.

[Jimmy Fury]

AlexXIV wrote...
It is not the same though. Being gay can bring a lot of problems which 'normal' relationships don't. If for example Alistair had been gay, and everyone knew it I wonder if Arl Eamon would still have suggested him as heir, if Anora had been willing to marry him or if even Alistair would have wanted to become king, since it would require an heir etc. Not trying to be narrow-minded here but including gay people in a game always also includes a sort of tragedy. And maybe writers just don't feel like it. If people think sexual orientation has nothing to do with the personality then I wonder how much thought they put into this statement. I mean it is the experiences you go through in life that form your personality or not?

I believe one of the writers (Gaider? Kirby?) mentioned somewhere that Ferelden's have a less intimate approach to sex when it's done to produce an heir. Nobles are expected to produce heirs with appropriate parentage and most, if not all, will fulfill that duty whether they enjoy the experience or not. Putting gay and lesbian nobles on the same level as heterosexual nobles who love a commoner or a templar or anyone else who they shouldn't produce an heir with. It's all well and good to have their fun but they need to get hitched and crank out a blueblood baby at some point. After that though they can go right back to dallying the cook or Ser Gilmore or whoever takes their fancy.

At least I think I remember someone saying that...

[David Gaider]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, is what this all sounds like to me.

This is why "but people will be upset!" is generally not a good reason for us to avoid doing something. People are freaks.

[AlexXIV]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
It is not the same though. Being gay can bring a lot of problems which 'normal' relationships don't. If for example Alistair had been gay, and everyone knew it I wonder if Arl Eamon would still have suggested him as heir, if Anora had been willing to marry him or if even Alistair would have wanted to become king, since it would require an heir etc. Not trying to be narrow-minded here but including gay people in a game always also includes a sort of tragedy. And maybe writers just don't feel like it. If people think sexual orientation has nothing to do with the personality then I wonder how much thought they put into this statement. I mean it is the experiences you go through in life that form your personality or not?

I believe one of the writers (Gaider? Kirby?) mentioned somewhere that Ferelden's have a less intimate approach to sex when it's done to produce an heir. Nobles are expected to produce heirs with appropriate parentage and most, if not all, will fulfill that duty whether they enjoy the experience or not. Putting gay and lesbian nobles on the same level as heterosexual nobles who love a commoner or a templar or anyone else who they shouldn't produce an heir with. It's all well and good to have their fun but they need to get hitched and crank out a blueblood baby at some point. After that though they can go right back to dallying the cook or Ser Gilmore or whoever takes their fancy.

At least I think I remember someone saying that...

Yeah maybe I am thinking too much but for example with femWarden and Leliana. If I had their happy end love story it had a bad taste for me. Because I was thinking they may want to have kids one day and then ... how would they do it. And then if they do it, the kid will grow up and wonder who is the fatther one day, etc. It is all but a perfect ending.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:01 .

[RedRoo]

I can't help but feel the "well if we DID do this, here's how we'd do it" talk is meant to imply that it is indeed the system they've used for DA2. I don't know about you, but I for one welcome the fact that Isabela will be romancing everyone's pants off. I'm sure it will help divert attention from her own pant-deficiencies.

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah maybe I am thinking too much but for example with femWarden and Leliana. If I had their happy end love story it had a bad taste for me. Because I was thinking they may want to have kids one day and then ... how would they do it. And then if they do it, the kid will grow up and wonder who is the fatther one day, etc. It is all but a perfect ending.

No one can have a 'perfect' ending, but I still think FemWarden/Leliana can have a pretty happy ending in spite of these 'difficulties' you raise here.

[Rinji the Bearded]

RedRoo wrote...

I can't help but feel the "well if we DID do this, here's how we'd do it" talk is meant to imply that it is indeed the system they've used for DA2. I don't know about you, but I for one welcome the fact that Isabela will be romancing everyone's pants off. I'm sure it will help divert attention from her own pant-deficiencies.

Perhaps all she wants is your pants because of her lack thereof?  Sounds like a reasonable way to obtain them.