685 réponses à ce sujet

[Milady495a]

 The original thesis of the OP ("if the companions are attracted to the PC no matter the looks and personality") is a) flawed, irresponsible, when taken into consideration the game system.

First of all, the PCs personality does influence the romance, and will get him negative points with the potential LI. You can balance it out by giving gifts, yes, an option that strikes me as too easily abused, but fine.

Secondly, this is a game we are talking about. In real life, it's true that an ugly or moustached guy (when you're not fond of facial hair) maybe doesn't attract you, and also you've got pheromones to take into account; but, how the hell could BW implement a system to define your choices in the editor screen as beautiful or ugly? Therefore, they have opted for the lesser evil: let's assume the character is attractive.

You just cannot theorize about the companion being attracted to your character in every circumstance. It's not true. There is the factor of your actions, the way you talk to them and act in front of them (although not covered enough, as certain chars should regard some of your actions as negative, instead of not acknowledging them at all -insulting the priestesses and all that); and there is the factor of "your character IS beautiful", whatever your choice at the editor. Game mechanics constraint the amount of things that a companion reacts to, the possibility of defining beauty, etc.

You've been basing your arguments on things that have to do with game mechanics, not actual reasons. 

Modifié par Milady495a, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:18 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Garrus Vakarian.

[Addai]

Roth wrote...

Oh, good grief. I refuse to play a game where every single character will try to seduce me. Imagine Dog humping your leg everytime you have him in the party. That would be weird.

This made me lol.

[Cutlasskiwi]

prazision wrote...

First, people keep saying that sexual preference is a major component of personality, and I'm just not seeing that in the previous game or this one. Second, that's getting into slippery territory, the kind where people claim to have "gaydar" that allows them to deduce sexual preference from the way someone acts. That's absurd.
As to "effectively making everyone bisexual", how is that any less realistic from "making every woman attracted to Hawke, regardless of what he looks or acts like"?

Yes, they can fall in love with a "ugly" PC but how would one even begin to write code so NPC's wouldn't? Wouldn't that alienate even more players if BioWare were to decid which PCs are attractive/ugly? Bringing realism into this is not working. Is it realistic that one can fall in battle again and again but never die?

They would have to change the characters personalities if the were to implement this and that, I'm against. I rather take the characters that BioWare have written and see what they have in store for me. I want them to have their own personality and not being tweaked to fit players needs and wishes. NPCs should stay NPCs.



Sorry if this is an overreaction. I'm tired and have the flue.. 

[The Big Nothing]

The main character should never be able to sway the sexuality of a character, just like I shouldn't be able to change their core beliefs. This is just ridiculous.

[Ryuukishi]

Though I personally agree that LIs should be gay/straight/bi based on how the character is written by the game developers, not player preference, I completely get what you are saying OP. It IS janky that Morrigan has no preference and is equally attracted to a human/elf/dwarf, short/tall, fat/thin, bearded/clean-shaven, etc. etc. etc., and we accept all of that, but her sexual orientation is Set in Stone and Must Never Be Questioned. I guess in a video game you have to make a compromise somewhere between making the characters realistic and allowing the player to play the game their own way, and this is the compromise BioWare has chosen. I don't know why everyone here insists on jumping down your throat for merely bringing up the question.

[cmathews03]

Z-Dragon wrote...

i don't think you understand how "quotation marks" work.....

Whilst I agree, I'm not sure you understand how an ellipsis works--or that an ellipsis is comprised of only three periods. If you're going to insult someone's less-than-stellar grammar, employ some circumspection and ensure you don't make yourself look like an idiot.

[SnowHeart1]

prazision wrote...

*snip*

I'm sorry but I really disagree.  I'm absolutely, 100% in favor of including more s/s romances and had absolutely no problem with Zevran being "bi" instead of "exclusively" gay and, in ME, I am also completely fine with Liara being effectively bi.  So, it's not an issue of having bisexual characters.  It's just that I think what you're proposing really undercuts the integrity of the characters and their development.  That's not to say I don't think there should be more options, but to basically have a toggle on each each LI just feels like cheesey pandering to me.

And as a bisexual male, I found the Zevran "romance" to be an insulting token inclusion, since there was no love, no "romance", with him. Just sex. Nothing approaching the deep sense of connection I felt with Leliana's romance path, for example. I felt my male Warden was closer to Sten than Zevran!

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you actually did play through the entire Zevran romance.  Assuming you have done so, what about it didn't you find satisfying or, once you got to know him better, romantic?  I found his coy, playful manner to be quite romantic and his confessed difficulty with serious romance and monogamous relationships to be rather touching.  I almost teared up in Awakening when I had that love note from him sitting in my inventory.  Anyway, this is just an argument I really don't get and I usually chalk it up to someone having only started the romance and not seen it all the way through, so I'm going to break with my usual tradition here and assume you actually did play it through, and am accordingly sincerely  interested in hearing why you felt it was an insulting token.

Cheers.

[Thiefy]

Ryuukishi wrote...

Though I personally agree that LIs should be gay/straight/bi based on how the character is written by the game developers, not player preference, I completely get what you are saying OP. It IS janky that Morrigan has no preference and is equally attracted to a human/elf/dwarf, short/tall, fat/thin, bearded/clean-shaven, etc. etc. etc., and we accept all of that, but her sexual orientation is Set in Stone and Must Never Be Questioned. I guess in a video game you have to make a compromise somewhere between making the characters realistic and allowing the player to play the game their own way, and this is the compromise BioWare has chosen. I don't know why everyone here insists on jumping down your throat for merely bringing up the question.

How is that anymore janky that a real life straight woman who won't date women but will date a black/ white/asian guy, skinny/fat/muscular, long haired/short hair/beard/clean shaven/glasses/no glasses guy?

Sexuality is what it is and the fact that you can't change it at your leisure is just a hissy fit. Everyone so far has been pretty civil and a few even made unnecessary apologies incase they offended anyone so there hasn't been as much jumping as you claim.

It's one thing to have a character that's thought about bisexuality/homosexuality who has never acted on it and having them explore it via your character (which is a more interesting concept imo), but it's another thing to taken someone who is blatantly straight and make them hot for you. That would be just like asking for Sten to be Betty Crocker for our Warden because we really like and want him to be. Highly tempting (and amusing) but completely out of character.

So, it's not an issue of having bisexual characters.  It's just that I
think what you're proposing really undercuts the integrity of the
characters and their development.  That's not to say I don't think there
should be more options, but to basically have a toggle on each each LI
just feels like cheesey pandering to me.

THANK YOU.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:51 .

[Stanley Woo]

I was afraid of reading this discussion because it has always been a sensitive one that people could very easily take to very bad places. Thanks to everyone for keeping it (mostly) civil.

[prazision]

In Exile wrote...

prazision wrote...
First, people keep saying that sexual preference is a major component of personality, and I'm just not seeing that in the previous game or this one. Second, that's getting into slippery territory, the kind where people claim to have "gaydar" that allows them to deduce sexual preference from the way someone acts. That's absurd.
As to "effectively making everyone bisexual", how is that any less realistic from "making every woman attracted to Hawke, regardless of what he looks or acts like"?

\\\\

The bold is untrue, and has always been untrue in a Bioware game. You can, by being a jerkass, not ever have a romance with a character. Romances absolutely trigger based on how you act. In DA:O, they trigger based on approval. Fail to get positive approval (do not give gifts + insult) and you will not have a romance.

The game always tells the player the are attractive. This is Bioware convention. There are specific lines in the game about how attractive the player is. That's as much a feature as the player (for example) being a Warden.

So as it turns out, they go for the player becuase the player is Always Attractive and only if the player is nice.

Not to belabor the point, but again: if the LI "always" finds the PC "attractive", why stop at gender? A very feminine looking Male Elf is closer to a "traditional standard of beauty" than a short, homely Female Dwarf, wouldn't you say?

[Liablecocksman]

prazision wrote...

Not to belabor the point, but again: if the LI "always" finds the PC "attractive", why stop at gender? A very feminine looking Male Elf is closer to a "traditional standard of beauty" than a short, homely Female Dwarf, wouldn't you say?

Are you still arguing this, mate, really!?
Effiminate gentlemen aren't attractive to heterosexual men in real life either, and never will be.

Another example:
Just because Justin Bieber looks like a lesbian, doesn't make him attractive to lesbians.

[Ryuukishi]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
How is that anymore janky that a real life straight woman who won't date women but will date a black/ white/asian guy, skinny/fat/muscular, long haired/short hair/beard/clean shaven/glasses/no glasses guy?

I'm sure it's true that there are people in real life who have no preferences when it comes to appearance and physical traits in a potential romantic partner, but many, perhaps most, do have strong preferences. Maybe Morrigan could have been programmed to prefer a human lover and take more convincing to accept an elf or a dwarf, or maybe she could have had a special affinity for blond men. Just some ideas. Again, I'm happy with the way BioWare did it in the context of the game, but I don't think it's especially realistic that Morrigan's attitude boils down to, "I'm only interested in men, but once you clear that one hurdle, I have NO additional preferences."

And that's fine, BioWare is rightly focused on making the game more fun over making it more realistic. In that vein, would it really be that much more unrealistic than it already is, to make all LIs available to both genders. I think it's a valid question to ask.

Modifié par Ryuukishi, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ryzaki]

WidowMaker9394 wrote...


I don't want to start over because I suddenly realized that the character I've pictured in my head really wasn't gay, bi, straight whatever.

But it's a major part of one character! How can you realize you've made a mistake? Wouldn't several choices have been influenced by sexuality? After all it's completely solid and never has any ability to change at all. <_<

[darrylzero]

prazision wrote...

In Exile wrote...

prazision wrote...
First, people keep saying that sexual preference is a major component of personality, and I'm just not seeing that in the previous game or this one. Second, that's getting into slippery territory, the kind where people claim to have "gaydar" that allows them to deduce sexual preference from the way someone acts. That's absurd.
As to "effectively making everyone bisexual", how is that any less realistic from "making every woman attracted to Hawke, regardless of what he looks or acts like"?

\\\\\\\\

The bold is untrue, and has always been untrue in a Bioware game. You can, by being a jerkass, not ever have a romance with a character. Romances absolutely trigger based on how you act. In DA:O, they trigger based on approval. Fail to get positive approval (do not give gifts + insult) and you will not have a romance.

The game always tells the player the are attractive. This is Bioware convention. There are specific lines in the game about how attractive the player is. That's as much a feature as the player (for example) being a Warden.

So as it turns out, they go for the player becuase the player is Always Attractive and only if the player is nice.

Not to belabor the point, but again: if the LI "always" finds the PC "attractive", why stop at gender? A very feminine looking Male Elf is closer to a "traditional standard of beauty" than a short, homely Female Dwarf, wouldn't you say?

Like Mr. Woo above, I am pleasantly surprised by this thread.  To be honest, I was expecting a ridiculous request followed by a funch of flaming.  We got a little of the latter, but not so bad, and the request is actually not ridiculous at all.  And kudos for your patience on this thread, explaining over and over
again those parts of your argument that were being ignored/misunderstood
over and over again. 

I've been thinking about it for a minute, and I'm not convinced this would be a good thing.  You have a very logical argument for this, and I think you have made your case very well.  As a player, I would probably enjoy aspects of the feature you're talking about, and other aspects would be easy for me to ignore.  That's a win, and even if I didn't end up making use of any of it, I would be glad that people who wanted them had more options.

However,  I think you're ignoring the writing side.  Yes, you can make an ugly PC and have folks fall in love with you, but Bioware doesn't have to write Allistair or Morrigan falling in love with an ugly PC.  As In Exile has pointed out, they write those characters falling in love with beautiful PCs and ignore any deviation from that  pattern.  That's fine as far as it goes.  I'd love for that not to be true, but it would be a ton of work to do anything about.

But when you start applying that to sexuality, I think you enter uncomfortable territory.  Would gay male gamers enjoy playing an Allistair romance written for a woman with a few pronouns changed here and there?  Well, yes, we have pretty good evidence that many of them would, but aspects of the idea are more unsettling.  And Gaider at least, maybe others too, have said that they wrote Allistair as straight and did not feel they could write him realistically as gay.  Whether we can imagine Allistair as gay (I can), is immaterial.  His writers couldn't, and they didn't want to just throw a half-assed, papered-over version of the straight romance out there.

You can still make the argument that they should do just that, but I think you have to take the writing process more seriously than you have so far.  I do wonder how easy it will be for Bioware to keep writing one male and one female bisexual companion for each game.  They of course have not promised to do so, and have stated quite strongly that this is not how they approach the process, but I wonder how long this particular solution to including gay gamers can last.

[Beocat]

Okay... I read up to about the middle of the 4th page before deciding that this was getting ridiculous to read.



I'm not sure if you're still defending the "all LI's should be bisexual" idea OP, but let me give you a quick glance into the mind of writer (you know...the kind of person that writes stories and creates characters to insert into those stories). When I'm writing up a character for a story, I start with an origins story and description. You know, the description usually has things like "black hair, brown eyes, this tall, hobbies are..." and whatnot. However, this is the point that I decide whether a character will be straight, gay or bisexual. Then, the origin story and I insert them into whatever story I happen to be writing. In fact, those orientations change how the new characters that I write will interact with my main character (hmmm...kind of like real life huh? A gale male character certainly isn't going to enjoy a woman flirting with him, would he? The same with a heterosexual female isn't going to try to seduce another woman.).



I'm fairly certain that most writers are going to decide the sexual orientation of a character in its infancy. This being said, I could never write a story with solely gay, or straight, or bisexual characters (or romances for my main characters). It would be boring, unrealistic, and it would detract from the individuality of each character that I spend hours creating (which is a pretty important and highly valued characteristic in America). Please attempt to understand that this is not a slight to you or your choice, but the fact that everyone is different and that the differences are reflected in the story. Enjoy the variety and the diversity that is represented in the party. This may lower your bisexual character's LI choices, but you can still appreciate the characters for how well they were written.



Finally, if not being able to be with a character bothers you so much, write a fanfic or something where you can hook up with them. You can play out your own fantasies then without trying to extinguish the literary creativity that has been gifted to us by the talented writers at Bioware. I don't mind seeing variety. What you have proposed is not conducive for a diverse party.

[prazision]

Frankly, I'm quite worried that there will never be another gay or lesbian LI in a BioWare game. It seems like the straight players are "getting their cake and eating it too" by the fact that any LI that is gay-romanceable is bisexual. Would so many straight players disagree with my premise if Leliana had been lesbian-only (which I honestly feel she should have been, given her past)?

[Liablecocksman]

prazision wrote...

Frankly, I'm quite worried that there will never be another gay or lesbian LI in a BioWare game. It seems like the straight players are "getting their cake and eating it too" by the fact that any LI that is gay-romanceable is bisexual. Would so many straight players disagree with my premise if Leliana had been lesbian-only (which I honestly feel she should have been, given her past)?

Given that just about 100% of her targets, at least those who she seduced first, were males -- Yes. Your premise wouldn't make any sense at all, with Leliana.

She could be bisexual but strongly prefering women, though, and I wouldn't object in the slightest.

[prazision]

Beocat, you speak of "variety" but as I expressed in my last post, there is precious little of that. Zevran wasn't gay, he was bisexual. I would bet every dollar I have that there will never be a strictly gay LI in a BioWareEA game ever again.

[Elite Midget]

We can already change how characters act, what their motivations are, and how they see the world. That and in every Bioware can you can alter their beliefs with a few well placed words. So why not have the option to seduce those of the same gender that were sure that they didn't swing that way untill they met you?

[Liablecocksman]

Elite Midget wrote...

We can already change how characters act, what their motivations are, and how they see the world. That and in every Bioware can you can alter their beliefs with a few well placed words. So why not have the option to seduce those of the same gender that were sure that they didn't swing that way untill they met you?

For the same reason that homosexuality isn't "cured", regardless of how much right-wing nutjobs want it to be.

[Bryy_Miller]

Praz,

You started this thread as a technical question. It does nobody any good to suddenly shift it to a philosophical one.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 11 janvier 2011 - 10:29 .

[Pedonecrophile]

NO!

[Noilly Prat]

As much as I am in favor of the inclusion of bisexual or exclusively gay romance options, I do think there are some specific issues that would come up if all characters (or at least all romance options) happened to be bisexual.

I do agree that there's a slight gameplay/story disconnect when your love interests don't care about how you look, or even how you behave in some cases, and that cultural differences and differences of perspective don't come up more often between mixed-race pairings in DA:O.  But I am willing to accept that (for instance), to Leliana, race is no object and she's willing to be open-minded about differences in opinion regarding religion.  (She's open-minded about enough other stuff, so why not?)  However, if Alistair were made bisexual without at least some rewriting of his romance, I don't think I would find it convincing in its male PC incarnation.  I'm not just talking about the "you're beautiful" line, either.  A large chunk of his romance dialogue seems specifically oriented toward a female character.  I'm not trying to say that it wouldn't necessarily work for a male PC-- as a straight male, I don't feel I'm qualified to judge whether same sex relationships are substantially different or the same as opposite sex ones-- but, coming simply from the perspective of whether the romance is believable and satisfying, I suspect that at least parts of Alistair's romance would need to be rewritten in order to be believable and satisfying as a same sex romance.  True, BioWare's romances are not always 100% believable to begin with, but that's another debate for another time...

I can understand the wish that all romance characters should be bi, but it's similar to the wish that any particular character should be romanceable at all.  I think that the question "why can't I play as a man and romance Alistair?" is no different, really, than the question "why can't I play as a female and romance Oghren?"  The answer is because BioWare chose not to write that romance.  I would love it if I had four or five options instead of two or three, or if I could romance any character I fancy in the game, but that would require BioWare to write those options into the game, and I would, in general, rather something be done right or not done at all.  So I will take my two or three reasonably well-developed romance options, and comfort myself with the knowledge that if every party member were a romance option, realistically, the romances would likely mostly be terrible (or at least not very substantial).

[Kajan451]

With due respect to people desiring homosexual LIs... i do not want that. Not because they are homosexual, but because i do not want to end up in another Zevran situation. Where he is telling me he is gay... and i tell him "thats cool with me" without intending to say "i am gay"... and next time i talk to my LI all of the sudden i have her all rilled up and accusing me to have sex with him (and mind you he looks like a frog, if i would be gay i wouldn't have done him for money)... and forcing me to decide to between him and her.

Thats the reason i do not want every LI to be bisexual. I want to be able to be FRIENDS with people without having to carefully tip toe around what i say to them so the game doesn't jump to conclusions.

Its the same in MassEffect 2. First time talking to Jack.. i really wanted to be her friend... but there seems to be no friend mode.. you will eventually end up in a drama with your LI if you befriend another LI forcing you to make a choice. Which yeah is kind of okay, if i would have been actually woohing another person, but i wasn't my character was just nice, polite and trying to be a friend.

The idea of all of the characters suddenly developing into a relationship minefield is horrible to me. If they include something like that.. i certainly would love to have an option in the Character creation screen.

A question about the sexual orientation of my character... allowing me to decide how he has so far "swung" and how i want to proceed. There could be 6 options...

Homosexual (Loyal)
Homosexual (Open Relationship)
Heterosexual (Loyal)
Heterosexual (OR)
Bisexual (Loyal)
Bisexual (OR)

If you select the Loyal option the came will include some checkbox in the Characterprofil of the characters which you can check to let the game know you are interrested in that person as LI. All other characters without that checkbox wont really start to assume you are interrested unless you check their box.

Openrelationship is the "lets see where we end up" type of deal... and the sexual orientation decides which characters react to you.

But i certainly don't want Bisexual LIs because all that drama which the game would drop onto me, just because i am trying to be friends... sorry... not interrested in that option.


And if i got to be frank... i think videogames should include more options for homosexual relationships... but i don't want to be bothered by it. It kills my own immersion if my character happens to be gay... which is the reason i think there should be homosexual options for characters, because if i would be gay, i certainly would have a problem with the lack of immersion if i am only stuck with romances i have no real interrest in.

And i think the easiest way to provide the option but do not bother either side with it, would be some kind of option you can check to make your game the best possible experiance, without bothering homosexuals with heterosexual heros (if they don't want them) and without bothering heterosexuals with homosexual content (if they don't want it).

Modifié par Kajan451, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:56 .