74 réponses à ce sujet

[Manic Sheep]

Cause even if it wasn’t really if shepard believed it she would still see it? All that would prove is that Shepard was crazy not intentionally lying I supose.

[Scimal]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Regardless, there is a lot of other evidence that is ignored by the Council:

1) Legion telling them the geth didn't make Sovereign (the first documented peaceful geth contact in galactic history)

2) The Cipher lets Shepard understand the Prothean language, goes towards the persuasiveness of his interpretation of the visions (and the visions being real).

3) Indoctrination, if the geth created Sovereign they must have invented indoctrination, but then why don't they include that capability on their other vessels?

4) Chorban's keeper scans.

5) The testimony of Rana Thanoptis, Shiala, and the sane salarian you can rescue on Virmire.


Basically they're idiots. At the very least there is enough evidence to say the geth didn't make Sovereign.

1) Given that the Geth and the Heretics were already separated at that point, Legion could be very correct (the Geth didn't build Sovereign), and it still wouldn't be any more convincing (the Heretics could have).

2) The insane man understands the language he thought up in his head. Not that surprising.

3) Perhaps it was an experimental design, or alien technology - more Prothean artifacts. Especially since the wreckage of Sovereign has yet to be put together in any significant portion (and may never be, since Sovereign might've had nanites devour any important structures posthumously).

4) Would take decades of work to confirm. As a hypothesis, it has enough proof to get started, but the world of Science is run by peer-review. For something to be taken seriously, people need to confirm the results several times.

5) The Old Growth might have accepted her as a sacrifice before talking to Saren about the Reapers, so Shiala might not know anything. Rana might not survive into ME2, and if she does, she thought it was Geth (Heretic) technology - not Reaper technology. I don't remember the sane Salarian bit.


Are they all perfect? Nah, not really. We just have trouble understanding the Council's skepticism because we experienced everything along with Shepard.

From their point of view, Shepard got his head messed with by a Prothean artifact, predicted armageddon by ancient robots without a known maker who consistently cleanse the galaxy of life, and convinced the rest of his crew that it was real while hunting down Saren and his Heretic minions who attacked the Citadel with experimental/alien technology in an effort to sieze control.

After that, he shows up two years after his death working for the enemy.

So far, he's one big basket of loony wrapped in one giant "I Saved Your Butts" sticker.

Would you want to meld minds with the guy? Probably not.

[Ryzaki]

Meh. I just put that as "too much like logic". Right next to leaving the Rachni Queen captured but not killing her/releasing her or keeping your mouth closed about the Reapers.

I mean I'm pretty sure Liara was able to tell the differences between Shep's dreams, the visions from the beacon and reality.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[Asari Party]

I suppose it's understandable that the council is skeptical of Shepard's visions...still though, the main reason why they don't believe Shepard is because they don't want to believe it. I mean it's not that much different from people spouting off doomsday/armageddon nonsense in today's society. People will dismiss it unless there is undeniable proof that it is true.



The turian councilor is going to think Shepard is a lunatic until he sees an armada of reapers closing in on the Citadel. I am hoping that at some point of ME3 I can rub it in his face...Oh I can't wait. I might cry laughing when I see the defeated look on his face.



Turian Councilor: "Shepard! There's a fleet of...of...ships closing in on the citadel!"

Shepard: Those ships look a lot like Sovereign don't they? Maybe they're reapers." *Shepard smiles*



Turian Councilor: "No...we dismissed that claim! I've never been wrong!"

Harbinger on broadcast: "All life must end! Assuming direct control"

Shepard: Dismiss that mother f***er! (Then Shepard shoots him and Garrus becomes the new Turian councilor)



Sorry lol, I had to do it

[ianmcdonald]

You have to make her a mixtape first.

[Flamewielder]

Keep in mind that Liara also had first hand archeological knowledge the Asari Councillor does not: while sharing the vision is certainly possible, it would have been just as meaningless to her as to Shepard. Liara, on the other hand was able to recognise objects, locations, icons, etc... which helped Shepard sort out and give names to the images he/she saw.

[CanadAvenger]

Flamewielder wrote...

Keep in mind that Liara also had first hand archeological knowledge the Asari Councillor does not: while sharing the vision is certainly possible, it would have been just as meaningless to her as to Shepard. Liara, on the other hand was able to recognise objects, locations, icons, etc... which helped Shepard sort out and give names to the images he/she saw.

I just sort of skimmed over everything, but this guy explains an important aspect of why it didn't happen.


But here's another question.... Why in the hell does NOBODY in Shepard's crew have helmet cams??
We have them now, in 2011, so why not in 2186?
Pretty much the entire game of Mass Effect 1 would have been dramatically different.

[Someone With Mass]

The only guy I've seen with a helmet cam is that soldier who recorded the attack on Eden Prime in ME1. After that, it's never mentioned again.



I like to think that the Council is just playing dumb to avoid public panic. At least I hope that's the case.

[Big I]

Scimal wrote...
1) Given that the Geth and the Heretics were already separated at that point, Legion could be very correct (the Geth didn't build Sovereign), and it still wouldn't be any more convincing (the Heretics could have).

If the Geth/Heretic division is a relatively recent thing, then there should be little to no difference in their comparative technologies because they are utilising a shared technological base. If the Heretics can build something, then the Geth should be able to do the same unless a third party was advancing the capabilities of one group.

2) The insane man understands the language he thought up in his head. Not that surprising.

Not surprising if the language is imaginary, but quite surprising if the language is real. Assuming examples of Prothean language or recordings survived Shepard's ability to translate them from Prothean to English would be unprecedented.

3) Perhaps it was an experimental design, or alien technology - more Prothean artifacts. Especially since the wreckage of Sovereign has yet to be put together in any significant portion (and may never be, since Sovereign might've had nanites devour any important structures posthumously).

Then the theory is not "the Geth built it" but instead "the Geth found it", which invalidates the Council's theory that the Geth were solely responsible for the attack and raises more questions. If indoctrination is the result of a Prothean artifact, where did it come from? Were there more than one? Why would the Geth install the device on a ship presumably crewed by them? Their whole theory of "the Geth were the lone gunmen" breaks down.

As to nanites, there is no evidence that the Reapers have and/or use them in such a fashion.

4) Would take decades of work to confirm. As a hypothesis, it has enough proof to get started, but the world of Science is run by peer-review. For something to be taken seriously, people need to confirm the results several times.

Chorban's research is important not just because of his conclusions but also because of the scanning. No one else has ever successfully scanned the keepers. Granted that it needs to be confirmed, but the mere fact that he claims to have done something groundbreaking (and possibly illegal, as he says in ME1) deserves serious investigation. As for decades, if Chorban can finish his research in under 2 years surely others can do the same.

5) The Old Growth might have accepted her as a sacrifice before talking to Saren about the Reapers, so Shiala might not know anything. Rana might not survive into ME2, and if she does, she thought it was Geth (Heretic) technology - not Reaper technology. I don't remember the sane Salarian bit.

Rana, Shiala and the salarian from the cells can confirm that indoctrination is a real, measurable phenomenon, and Shiala and Rana can confirm that no one working for Saren thinks Sovereign was made by the Geth, including presumably the Geth themselves.

Are they all perfect? Nah, not really. We just have trouble understanding the Council's skepticism because we experienced everything along with Shepard.

From their point of view, Shepard got his head messed with by a Prothean artifact, predicted armageddon by ancient robots without a known maker who consistently cleanse the galaxy of life, and convinced the rest of his crew that it was real while hunting down Saren and his Heretic minions who attacked the Citadel with experimental/alien technology in an effort to sieze control.

After that, he shows up two years after his death working for the enemy.

So far, he's one big basket of loony wrapped in one giant "I Saved Your Butts" sticker.

Would you want to meld minds with the guy? Probably not.

The Council's reaction is based on blind fear and arrogance. They discount eyewitness accounts and refuse to verify the testimony of their own Spectre for no reason. They would rather believe that the conversation with Sovereign didn't happen or was some ploy by Saren; that the Geth created a dreadnought that displayed capabilities and sophistication seen in no other Geth creation; and that the conversation with Vigil didn't happen or was some trick by Saren, and had nothing to do with the datafile Shepard used to seize control of the Citadel and through it the relay network.

Their reason for not believing Shepard is essentially "we don't want it to be true". Even if they were skeptical about the Reapers being real, the responsible thing to do would be to meld with Shepard and the Normandy crew present when he talked to Sovereign and Vigil, and to perform tests on their mental state to help determine credibility.

[Scimal]

LookingGlass93 wrote...


If the Geth/Heretic division is a relatively recent thing, then there should be little to no difference in their comparative technologies because they are utilising a shared technological base. If the Heretics can build something, then the Geth should be able to do the same unless a third party was advancing the capabilities of one group.

Saren was that third party. It was implied that he was giving the Heretics the tech, or at least allowing them access to it. The only mention of it being "Geth" technology is ME2, which seems to imply that Saren provided the tech and plans, and then the Heretics constructed it - at least, according to the Council.

Not surprising if the language is imaginary, but quite surprising if the language is real. Assuming examples of Prothean language or recordings survived Shepard's ability to translate them from Prothean to English would be unprecedented.

I'd agree, but I don't recall there being recordings of Prothean language.

Then the theory is not "the Geth built it" but instead "the Geth found it", which invalidates the Council's theory that the Geth were solely responsible for the attack and raises more questions. If indoctrination is the result of a Prothean artifact, where did it come from? Were there more than one? Why would the Geth install the device on a ship presumably crewed by them? Their whole theory of "the Geth were the lone gunmen" breaks down.

As to nanites, there is no evidence that the Reapers have and/or use them in such a fashion.

Pretty much. To me, it was always implied (up until the reveal) that Saren was the architect behind Sovereign, and the Geth Heretics were merely pawns. It doesn't necessarily invalidate the Council's theory, because from their point of view, they were attacked by Saren at the head of a giant Heretic fleet. Saren could've found the ship, but the most likely explanation was that the Geth built it according to Saren's designs. What Saren's designs were (and what they revolved around) died with him - they hope.

The Prothean artifact comes from where any other Prothean artifact comes from; somewhere. You visit near a dozen planets inhabited by the Protheans at one point, experience three artifacts personally, and find several others. Via Firewalker in ME2, you find a Prothean artifact that seemingly changes mass. That's far more extraordinary than the Indoctrination effect.

The Reapers augmented the Collectors, and the Collectors have used such technology. The big dark floaty guys with a dozen human heads in their mouths disintegrate upon their death because nanobots destroy the body.

Chorban's research is important not just because of his conclusions but also because of the scanning. No one else has ever successfully scanned the keepers. Granted that it needs to be confirmed, but the mere fact that he claims to have done something groundbreaking (and possibly illegal, as he says in ME1) deserves serious investigation. As for decades, if Chorban can finish his research in under 2 years surely others can do the same.

Being "groundbreaking" doesn't help its case to become accepted quickly. It means the opposite; anything groundbreaking must be absolutely bullet-proof in terms of evidence.

How many people still don't believe in human-caused Climate Change? Despite the overwhelming amount of proof available, beyond-exhaustive analysis, corroboration by thousands of Scientists, and basically universal acceptance at every academic level above Middle School, there are still large swaths of people who don't think it's true. This is a decade after Al Gore, and some 40 years after CFC's were banned (oddly enough, the same people who don't believe in human causation seem to have little trouble believing CFC's could rot a hole in the Ozone layer).

Something isn't usually seen as "groundbreaking" until decades after the work is performed and confirmed by dozens of Scientists. It's just how the system works.

Rana, Shiala and the salarian from the cells can confirm that indoctrination is a real, measurable phenomenon, and Shiala and Rana can confirm that no one working for Saren thinks Sovereign was made by the Geth, including presumably the Geth themselves.

The Council never disputes the Indoctrination effect. They're fine with that. They simply contest its source. Shiala is an unreliable source, being basically enslaved (and who is still not completely stable). Rana Thanoptis is probably the best source, but her expertise is biological - not technological. Same for the Salarians; possible unreliable information due to stress, and they might never have seen Sovereign itself.

I doubt the Geth knew much more about the Heretics' operations than any other race up until the point where you can choose to assimilate the Heretics back in. After that, the Geth probably knew. Doesn't mean much at that point, though.

The Council's reaction is based on blind fear and arrogance. They discount eyewitness accounts and refuse to verify the testimony of their own Spectre for no reason. They would rather believe that the conversation with Sovereign didn't happen or was some ploy by Saren; that the Geth created a dreadnought that displayed capabilities and sophistication seen in no other Geth creation; and that the conversation with Vigil didn't happen or was some trick by Saren, and had nothing to do with the datafile Shepard used to seize control of the Citadel and through it the relay network.

Their reason for not believing Shepard is essentially "we don't want it to be true". Even if they were skeptical about the Reapers being real, the responsible thing to do would be to meld with Shepard and the Normandy crew present when he talked to Sovereign and Vigil, and to perform tests on their mental state to help determine credibility.

The handful of eyewitness accounts don't bring any proof with them. When you're talking about mobilizing billions of sentient beings into war, you need proof. Shepard's case for mental stability just gets worse as time goes on. They DID believe Shepard's testimony - they went to Ilos and checked on Vigil, whom they found completely unrecoverable/unpowered. There's also no proof (outside of pure speculation by the eyewitnesses) that Sovereign wasn't a ploy by Saren. The data Shepard used to stop the Reaper activation of the Citadel was probably quickly resolved by the Keepers or never recovered, so the Council may never have known of its existence in the first place.

The rest of the Normandy crew is gone, and the few left were generally loyal to Shepard. The one exception - the one with Alliance ties, was there throughout the entire adventure, and was front-line, isn't getting along with him. As silly as it sounds, the Council could see it as a cult-like problem. The crew could all believe it simply because the person the crew trusted insisted it was real.

The mind-melding capability of the Asari is a huge wild-card. Liara was able to view Shepard's vision, but could not interpret Prothean language (even though Shepard could through the Cipher). This seems to imply that the melding presents itself as very superficial, and may simply be harvesting information while not using the person's mind to interpret said information before relaying it to the Asari.

If that much is true, there's no clear evidence that someone's memories couldn't be falsified by themselves and be "read" like any other memory. This makes sense since, if the Asari were capable of telling false information from true information via a melding, they would use far more often in their law enforcement facilities (assuming that the Asari could force a meld in the first place).


Yes, I'm aware I'm playing a bit Devil's advocate here, but I don't see too many holes in the story. The biggest hole, to me, was the derelict Reaper. The weapon scar was known for a while prior to Cerberus' involvement, and nobody thought to check what the species was shooting at? Suspicious.

[Big I]

Scimal wrote...
Yes, I'm aware I'm playing a bit Devil's advocate here, but I don't see too many holes in the story. The biggest hole, to me, was the derelict Reaper. The weapon scar was known for a while prior to Cerberus' involvement, and nobody thought to check what the species was shooting at? Suspicious.

To give the Council the benefit of the doubt, it is clear that you can create a theory for the events of ME1 that doesn't involve Reapers - Saren found a Prothean dreadnought and used it to convince the Geth he and it were the agents of an imaginary race of AIs. Granted that a theory that involves their most trusted agent going rogue for no specified reason and managing to convince a hostile race of robots that he himself is working for a machine intelligence from before recorded history by himself has credibility problems of it's own, it's still possible to see things like that.


However, that's  not their theory. Their theory is that Saren convinced the Geth the Reapers are real, and then the Geth built Sovereign for him (what they say in ME2). Even were their theory the more plausible one of "Saren found a Prothean dreadnought", as events progress new information comes to light that chips away at this theory. For instance:

1) Chorban's research

2) Shepard's visions, and subsequent discovery of Ilos and an understanding of the Prothean language.

3) Rana's testimony as to the purpose of Saren's experiments on Virmire (i.e. trying to find out if he himself is being indoctrinated and controlled)

4) Eyewitness accounts of conversations with Sovereign and Vigil, with possible eyewitnesses including a quarian AI expert and a Prothean expert

5) Possible hardsuit recordings of these conversations (this link  shows a conversation with Ash at 3:35 that mentions their existence)


And that's not even considering in game evidence that backs up the Reaper theory (the abundance of extinct non-Prothean species found in the Terminus systems, asari research on the age of the relays, and the great rift on Klendagon you mentioned). Perhaps no one of these things is enough to dispel doubt on it's own, but taken together it's rather convincing. They should at the very least consider and plan for the possibility that the Reapers are real.

[Sajuro]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The only guy I've seen with a helmet cam is that soldier who recorded the attack on Eden Prime in ME1. After that, it's never mentioned again.

I like to think that the Council is just playing dumb to avoid public panic. At least I hope that's the case.

Helmet cams obviously bring nothing but death in Sci fi games. In Halo the helmet cam guy dies from the flood, and Mass Effect has the Helmet cam guy die from the Geth.

[V-rex]

From what I understand, you're supposed to buy them dinner first.



Seriously though, it is possibly a plot hole and it's true that if the Council were willing to 'humor' Shepard and do the mind meld thing then maybe they would find out the truth.

[Asari Party]

You know I've never even considered the helm cams before...come to think of it, why don't we all have them? I mean it's it's the 22nd century and they don't have those? Although the turian councilor is so powerful that he would dismiss the fabricated evidence and call Shepard's squad crazy.

[Rogue Unit]

I'm more curious as to how no one besides Cerberus knew about the defunct Reaper and why Shepard didn't just inform the council about it or get some solid proof that the reaper existed before the geth.

[Moiaussi]

Rogue Unit wrote...

I'm more curious as to how no one besides Cerberus knew about the defunct Reaper and why Shepard didn't just inform the council about it or get some solid proof that the reaper existed before the geth.

There are strong implications that TIM intervened to sabotage any investigation. I mean, if he can jam distress signals without having a ship in the area.....

[Naughty Bear]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

 

Thats like me having sex with your mother so she can see what her child will look like.

[Scimal]

[quote]LookingGlass93 wrote...


To give the Council the benefit of the doubt, it is clear that you can create a theory for the events of ME1 that doesn't involve Reapers - Saren found a Prothean dreadnought and used it to convince the Geth he and it were the agents of an imaginary race of AIs. Granted that a theory that involves their most trusted agent going rogue for no specified reason and managing to convince a hostile race of robots that he himself is working for a machine intelligence from before recorded history by himself has credibility problems of it's own, it's still possible to see things like that.


However, that's  not their theory. Their theory is that Saren convinced the Geth the Reapers are real, and then the Geth built Sovereign for him (what they say in ME2). Even were their theory the more plausible one of "Saren found a Prothean dreadnought", as events progress new information comes to light that chips away at this theory. For instance:[/quote]

I was always under the impression that the Council believed the Geth formed Sovereign around something of Saren's design or finding. Even Saren's allies - the eyewitnesses the council would interview - know that Sovereign was found and not created.

Even if the Council assumes that Sovereign was completely of Geth design, including the Indoctrination affect, you have no way to prove otherwise since the Geth retreated back behind the Veil. That makes the Council simply afraid to move against the Geth, as opposed to afraid to prep for the Reapers - which is much more plausible.

[quote]
1) Chorban's research[/quote]

Like I said before - it will take years for that research to get shown the light of day, if it ever does. I doubt there are many other Scientists willing to do something questionably legal on the Citadel to back up a wild claim. It'd be like someone right now saying that the secret to Cold Fusion is a chemical secreted by people when they're smoking cigarettes. It's not strictly illegal for people to smoke, but if it required having people take up smoking (and all the consequences that come with it), you'd find very few takers.

[quote]2) Shepard's visions, and subsequent discovery of Ilos and an understanding of the Prothean language.[/quote]

Only he sees the Visions. Liara also saw the visions, but I've already made a good case that the Asari's mind-meld is much more observant than participatory. If Shepard was mentally unstable (as the Council implies numerous times) and believed he had Visions, there's nothing an Asari could do to tell fact from fiction. They also know about Ilos, since they went to see if Vigil was still active.

[quote]3) Rana's testimony as to the purpose of Saren's experiments on Virmire (i.e. trying to find out if he himself is being indoctrinated and controlled)[/quote]

What were her results? Did she have any data to actually show that the Indoctrination affect wasn't Geth, or simply an alien artifact? From the Council's point of view, Saren might've simply encountered a Beacon, gone insane believing about something called Reapers, and affected Shepard - who is also mentally unstable after encountering a Prothean Beacon.

Solution? Don't let anyone near the Beacons - not "prepare for the Reaper arrival."

[quote]4) Eyewitness accounts of conversations with Sovereign and Vigil, with possible eyewitnesses including a quarian AI expert and a Prothean expert[/quote]

They believe in Vigil. Vigil was simply deactivated when they went around to ask it questions. Plus, it's possible the crew would agree with Shepard simply because he was their Commander. It's happened in the military before to protect their own. Plus, their credulity is tarnished because Tali returns almost instantly back to the Migrant fleet after Shepard's death, and Liara is working as a shady Information Broker. It shows neither believed that Shepard was telling the truth, sot hey didn't stick around to expose the truth.

[quote]5) Possible hardsuit recordings of these conversations (this link  shows a conversation with Ash at 3:35 that mentions their existence)[/quote]

Ash is hardcore military. She'd never betray her Commander. Ever. She'd be even more prone to protecting Shep through lies than Liara or Tali.


[quopte]And that's not even considering in game evidence that backs up the Reaper theory (the abundance of extinct non-Prothean species found in the Terminus systems, asari research on the age of the relays, and the great rift on Klendagon you mentioned). Perhaps no one of these things is enough to dispel doubt on it's own, but taken together it's rather convincing. They should at the very least consider and plan for the possibility that the Reapers are real.
[/quote]

It's only convincing because the player knows the Reapers are real.

The Council must relay on the most plausible explanation. Either that there's a race of sentient starships ready to destroy all the technologically advanced races over the course of centuries, using the Citadel as a trojan horse to wipe out command infrastructure first - and has done so every 50k years since before any current race had evolved..

Or:

The Relays were built by another species and found by the Protheans (true, but no implication of Reapers), the non-Prothean ruins are too far apart on a timeline to connect to any consistent catastrophic event (especially since many other non-Prothean ruins confirm that many died to self-inflicted extinctions).

Like I said, there are a few things I find questionable - the Klendagon scar is one of them. That doesn't affect the Council's opinions on Reapers, it just means that the resources weren't allocated to answering it at the time (which, again, I find odd - but not terribly odd).

[Moiaussi]

Scimal wrote...I was always under the impression that the Council believed the Geth formed Sovereign around something of Saren's design or finding. Even Saren's allies - the eyewitnesses the council would interview - know that Sovereign was found and not created.

Even if the Council assumes that Sovereign was completely of Geth design, including the Indoctrination affect, you have no way to prove otherwise since the Geth retreated back behind the Veil. That makes the Council simply afraid to move against the Geth, as opposed to afraid to prep for the Reapers - which is much more plausible.

Actually the council seemed all over the place with their theory, responding to individual points out of context with each other. For example, they argued that it was all a trick on the part of Saren, that Saren convinced the Geth that Sovereign was a god, and a reaper, etc, but they separately argued that Sovereign was built by the Geth. They thus argued that the Geth built a ship, and then let an organic convince them they had built a god, and that despite the fact they allegedly just built this god, that there are more such gods out there that the Geth didn't build that just happen to exist somehow....

They weren't willing to look at the holes in their theory because they never were willing to look at their theory as a whole.

Like I said before - it will take years for that research to get shown the light of day, if it ever does. I doubt there are many other Scientists willing to do something questionably legal on the Citadel to back up a wild claim. It'd be like someone right now saying that the secret to Cold Fusion is a chemical secreted by people when they're smoking cigarettes. It's not strictly illegal for people to smoke, but if it required having people take up smoking (and all the consequences that come with it), you'd find very few takers.

Actually the first thing that happens is others try to replicate the data. Given council logic, they probably rationalized that because the keepers are still alive, that the research must be fake, since they "know" that interfering with them causes the keepers to self destruct.

Only he sees the Visions. Liara also saw the visions, but I've already made a good case that the Asari's mind-meld is much more observant than participatory. If Shepard was mentally unstable (as the Council implies numerous times) and believed he had Visions, there's nothing an Asari could do to tell fact from fiction. They also know about Ilos, since they went to see if Vigil was still active.

The flaw here is pretty obvious. They not only never had anyone with any actual medical degree examine shepard and declare him crazy, they also didn't take him off active duty (even when the Normandy was locked down, it was under Udina's order, not theirs). Furthermore, they would have had to conclude that Shep's entire crew were likewise crazy, again, with no actual attempt at making such a diagnosis.

What were her results? Did she have any data to actually show that the Indoctrination affect wasn't Geth, or simply an alien artifact? From the Council's point of view, Saren might've simply encountered a Beacon, gone insane believing about something called Reapers, and affected Shepard - who is also mentally unstable after encountering a Prothean Beacon.

Solution? Don't let anyone near the Beacons - not "prepare for the Reaper arrival."

What, that Saren was afraid he was accidentally convincing himself that Sovereign was really a god? And noone around him realized or was willing to admit that, even after Saren was dead? And all again with no actual medical diagnosis.....

They believe in Vigil. Vigil was simply deactivated when they went around to ask it questions. Plus, it's possible the crew would agree with Shepard simply because he was their Commander. It's happened in the military before to protect their own. Plus, their credulity is tarnished because Tali returns almost instantly back to the Migrant fleet after Shepard's death, and Liara is working as a shady Information Broker. It shows neither believed that Shepard was telling the truth, sot hey didn't stick around to expose the truth.

Why would Tali's return to the Migrant Fleet mean anything? And Liara didn't start working as a broker til after the Normandy went down. Per TIM's opening bit, the Council were already dismissing the Reaper threat before then. "Stick around to expose the truth?" What... the council is already calling them liars. None of them are natural leaders. When Shepard talks about needing the Quarians against the Reapers, noone calls him out or dismisses him, suggesting that the Quarians believed Tali.

Garrus was reassigned. Joker was reassigned, Ashley was reassigned. Anyone who stuck around was 'actively discouraged' from spreading 'false rumours.'

Ash is hardcore military. She'd never betray her Commander. Ever. She'd be even more prone to protecting Shep through lies than Liara or Tali.

If they are accused of lieing to the council, bring them up on charges. Submit them to polygraphs or Asari equivalent. Heck, even debrief them properly i.e. individually, and try to show their stories don't match.

And Ash is hardcore military, meaning she wouldn't betray the Alliance or lie to them, even for Shep.

It's only convincing because the player knows the Reapers are real.

The Council must relay on the most plausible explanation. Either that there's a race of sentient starships ready to destroy all the technologically advanced races over the course of centuries, using the Citadel as a trojan horse to wipe out command infrastructure first - and has done so every 50k years since before any current race had evolved..

Or:

The Relays were built by another species and found by the Protheans (true, but no implication of Reapers), the non-Prothean ruins are too far apart on a timeline to connect to any consistent catastrophic event (especially since many other non-Prothean ruins confirm that many died to self-inflicted extinctions).

Like I said, there are a few things I find questionable - the Klendagon scar is one of them. That doesn't affect the Council's opinions on Reapers, it just means that the resources weren't allocated to answering it at the time (which, again, I find odd - but not terribly odd).

You treat alternative explainations as if their existance rules out the existance of the Reapers. And there is a difference between full panic mode and formal investigation. Finding Vigil unpowered does not equate to Vigil's information not having relevance. Other intact beacons providing the exact same information.... the fact that Shepard could read the labels on the controls at Ilos and thus potentially find a way to re-power vigil given the chance....

They didn't even want to give him the chance to build a real case. It didn't help that Shepard is usually written as if he is  moronic when dealing with the council too though. Evidence or no evidence, he keeps assuming that he shouldn't need to actually present a case. That doesn't excuse the Council. It is their job to find meaning even in the call of the loon.....

Modifié par Moiaussi, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:40 .

[ajw]

Maybe the Asari Councilor is an undiscovered Ardat-Yakshi. If she melded with Shepard she'd be revealing herself which would lead to the Asari government giving her the same choice they give all Ardat-Yakshi when there discovered. Retreat to a life of seclusion and comfort or face imprisonment or death by Justicar.

[Scimal]

Moiaussi wrote...

The flaw here is pretty obvious. They not only never had anyone with any actual medical degree examine shepard and declare him crazy, they also didn't take him off active duty (even when the Normandy was locked down, it was under Udina's order, not theirs). Furthermore, they would have had to conclude that Shep's entire crew were likewise crazy, again, with no actual attempt at making such a diagnosis.

Diagnosing mental instability is tricky, and even professional Psychologists argue over the definition of psychosis. One could declare him crazy, the other couldn't. Since there wouldn't be a physiological change, any medical doctor would declare him fit for duty. Even if he were diagnosed with the "Sane" sticker and everything, Shepard is still spouting facts that only he and some of his crew know are "true."

Plus, shoving him into the Terminus systems to patrol for Batarians is about as "off active duty" as you can get when you're a hero.

Why would Tali's return to the Migrant Fleet mean anything? And Liara didn't start working as a broker til after the Normandy went down. Per TIM's opening bit, the Council were already dismissing the Reaper threat before then. "Stick around to expose the truth?" What... the council is already calling them liars. None of them are natural leaders. When Shepard talks about needing the Quarians against the Reapers, noone calls him out or dismisses him, suggesting that the Quarians believed Tali.

Garrus was reassigned. Joker was reassigned, Ashley was reassigned. Anyone who stuck around was 'actively discouraged' from spreading 'false rumours.'

If you're called a liar, but know it's the truth, do you back down and slink away? No, it's a sign that you don't believe what you're saying. Sure, they were actively reassigned - maybe Udina suspected that Shepard was mentally ill, like the Council, so he scattered the crew to keep the damage to a minimum. Either way, after Shepard's death, there was no one else but Anderson tooting the "Hey, the Reapers are real!" horn. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'm not sure the Quarians believed Tali, but if they did, they don't have a presence on the Council anyways. Ironic.

If they are accused of lieing to the council, bring them up on charges. Submit them to polygraphs or Asari equivalent. Heck, even debrief them properly i.e. individually, and try to show their stories don't match.

One way to do it, but perhaps Udino scattered the crew before the Council had a chance to do any in-depth interviews. They could've been busy rebuilding the Citadel and handling the dung-storm of politics that followed a potential disruption in galactic political power.

Lots of things are done impromptu after a crisis that linger for years.

You treat alternative explainations as if their existance rules out the existance of the Reapers. And there is a difference between full panic mode and formal investigation. Finding Vigil unpowered does not equate to Vigil's information not having relevance. Other intact beacons providing the exact same information.... the fact that Shepard could read the labels on the controls at Ilos and thus potentially find a way to re-power vigil given the chance....

Finding Vigil unpowered means that the Council could not confirm Shepard's story at best, and at worst only further implicated him as mentally unstable.

Also, like I said before, I think the Council would be more apt to bar any further experimens with the Beacons, since the only two people who were interacting with them betrayed the Council and are potentially delusional. Given a few years, science teams could inspect them - conduct tests, but if it's a choice between "Rebuild the galactic infrastructure at the expense of checking out the claims of a single (possibly delusional) individual" vs. "Make sure Shepard's claims are true at the cost of efficiently returning to normal," the choice for any leader should be clear.

They didn't even want to give him the chance to build a real case. It didn't help that Shepard is usually written as if he is  moronic when dealing with the council too though. Evidence or no evidence, he keeps assuming that he shouldn't need to actually present a case. That doesn't excuse the Council. It is their job to find meaning even in the call of the loon.....

The Council attempted to find evidence... They looked for Vigil, they tried to find pieces of Sovereign that were obviously not within the possibility of the Geth, and they could have done more that wasn't presented. However, as you said, Shepard doesn't present his case with any evidence. He simply expects things to be self-evident and for the Council to trust him. In ME1 that might've flown by as acceptable - albeit silly, but now that Shepard's working for Cerberus, the Council shoved him off the stage and gave him the boot as politically correctly as they could.

In ME3, this is going to change dramatically. The full story arch just hasn't happened yet, so people are getting frustrated at the Council because they still think Shepard is full of it while it's only been a handful of years.

[TheJiveDJ]

Embraced eternity lately?

[suicidexsamurai]

but if she did, couldnt she see shepards memory of the conversation wth sovreign as well?

[Last Vizard]

I hope we can let the new council sie too.

[corporal doody]

yup...rumor has the Council has been indoctrinated...pass it on