261 réponses à ce sujet

[Hawksblud]

yoshibb wrote...
[...] I seriously wanted a game like Mass Effect my whole life. There's no needing to be saved by a man at some point, there's no senseless female emotions at random points, no pointless fanservice. It's just female Shepard kicking ass and saving the galaxy. I connected with that character more than any character I had played the past 20 years before that. [...]

yoshibb wrote...

It's one of the big reasons I beg for more marketing of the female counterpart. I literally almost missed playing the best game of my life.

Quote for truth. KOTOR turned me into a gamer-- or, let me say, someone who bought and played video games. Before that, it was all AddictingGames for me, when I was bored. Tetris, maybe. TextTwist when I was really bored. But I was a SW fan, and KOTOR grabbed into me and twisted, hard. The first time I beat KOTOR, I beat it with the game bugging up and quitting out (quite literally) every twenty minutes. It was worth it.

Mass Effect (the first) turned me, in a period of two weeks, from someone who enjoyed the occasional game to a gamer. By which I mean, someone who beats games multiple times. Someone who gets into arguments about the cultural relevance and anthropological importance of the damned things. Before that, I hated shooters-- god knows why. Now, I can't seem to stop praising them. 

What changed? It isn't so much that there was a female option, but that for the first time, I felt as though a game was aimed at me. Like, somewhere in that huge games market, there was something aimed at me which wasn't Diner Dash or Wedding Whatever or something else determined to pigeonhole me into spending my spare time pretending to wait tables and play dress up. Sure, they can be fun for a little while, and then you realize what someone thought you-- as a woman-- would be happiest doing in your free time, and then it just pisses you off. Nancy Drew becomes a breath of fresh air, but it's nothing next to becoming a space marine who plays bad cop while interrogating crooked Turians, or going after two-hundred year-old dragons because you can, or the sure glee of convincing someone that yes, you can handle yourself in such-and-such situation. 

And for once, the game agrees with you. The game is not ignoring that you're female and pretending you're exactly the same as a male player, but saying, hey, you're a girl, and you're different, and we acknowledge that. But it doesn't matter in terms of what you can do. In game characters will, in fact, respond to what you do differently-- because they're people, and people still haven't come to terms with it. This is the big revelation. This is what makes playing a female worthwhile, just as gameplay experience. The implicit we get it, we understand what you want, and sometimes that's waiting tables, and sometimes it's pretending to be male and saving the world that way-- but it sure as f*** isn't what you want all the time.

And that's why female options are important.

Non sequitur: Kudos to whoever was saying that it's okay to explore the other side in video games, whether that be a question of sex or sexual orientation. Amen.

Edit: That... got longer than expected. >_<;; A total tl;dr on my part, oops.

Modifié par Hawksblud, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:34 .

[slimgrin]

I'm a guy, and this has never been a sticking point with me. If I get to have the choice, great. In games like DA, I usually choose female because I don't ever feel it's me in the game making choices, it's my character, my personal project. Call it a fantasy thing...


I have no problem playing a fixed protagonist. If we happened to play a woman in The Witcher, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:09 .

[yoshibb]

elearon1 wrote...

>>I won't play an RPG without a female option anymore.

While I can understand the reasoning, that really is too bad - the Witcher is an excellent game, with a well developed character and a good story.

When playing games like Oblivion, where your gender seemed mostly unimportant, I tend to do a lot of imaginary dialogue in my head (or out loud since there isn't usually anyone else around when I play) between my character and those around her, to compensate for this lack of interaction. (I did this a lot in many NWN Mods, and Guild Wars as well) It isn't quite the same as having programmed conversations, but it can still add a lot of fun and depth to my playthroughs. (actually, I still do this in games like ME and DA:O, when I feel like a conversation should be occurring between my party, but isn't ... I am a shameless rp addict)

I think my computer would crash and burn at the mere sight of games like the Witcher, which is besides the point.

I can do that extra roleplaying with female characters, but it's nice when I can just sit back a little and let the game actually do some work for me. When I play as a male, however, I feel like I'm just a guide. Like almost as if I'm standing beside him telling him what to say and do rather than actually being him. Maybe that's just a sign that I'm a bad roleplayer but at the end of almost every video game, the only thng I feel like I did was help someone else towards their goal rather than help myself. 

Modifié par yoshibb, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[catabuca]

duckphone07 wrote...

I am also a guy who has an easier time connecting with female PC's rather than male ones.  I play through both genders multiple times in all the Bioware games I have played, but my first and canon playthrough has always been female.  I don't know why I connect to female PC's more.  I have a theory, but it is too lengthy to post here.  So if Bioware went a route where it was male only or female only, I wouldn't be so bothered by it to the point of never buying the game, but I see the option of being male or female something that should never be removed.  If they had to do so, I would want them to make the PC female only rather than male only, but I can't see that being the case.  If they did go that route, they would most likely make the PC male only.  In any case, I would buy the game anyway and most likely enjoy it immensley.

I'm female, but what you said is eerily exactly how I feel too (obviously in reverse - in that I seem to connect more with male PCs than female, and also about having a theory why, but that is too lengthy to post ).

So yes, everything that duckphone wrote, but switch all the genders

[slimgrin]

By all means, post it Catabuca, I have some theories as well....

@yoshibb: nice you could get some Witcher bashing in there, not enough of that in these parts...

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[ransompendragon]

Hawksblud wrote...

yoshibb wrote...
[...] I seriously wanted a game like Mass Effect my whole life. There's no needing to be saved by a man at some point, there's no senseless female emotions at random points, no pointless fanservice. It's just female Shepard kicking ass and saving the galaxy. I connected with that character more than any character I had played the past 20 years before that. [...]

yoshibb wrote...

It's one of the big reasons I beg for more marketing of the female counterpart. I literally almost missed playing the best game of my life.

Quote for truth. KOTOR turned me into a gamer-- or, let me say, someone who bought and played video games. Before that, it was all AddictingGames for me, when I was bored. Tetris, maybe. TextTwist when I was really bored. But I was a SW fan, and KOTOR grabbed into me and twisted, hard. The first time I beat KOTOR, I beat it with the game bugging up and quitting out (quite literally) every twenty minutes. It was worth it.

Mass Effect (the first) turned me, in a period of two weeks, from someone who enjoyed the occasional game to a gamer. By which I mean, someone who beats games multiple times. Someone who gets into arguments about the cultural relevance and anthropological importance of the damned things. Before that, I hated shooters-- god knows why. Now, I can't seem to stop praising them. 

What changed? It isn't so much that there was a female option, but that for the first time, I felt as though a game was aimed at me. Like, somewhere in that huge games market, there was something aimed at me which wasn't Diner Dash or Wedding Whatever or something else determined to pigeonhole me into spending my spare time pretending to wait tables and play dress up. Sure, they can be fun for a little while, and then you realize what someone thought you-- as a woman-- would be happiest doing in your free time, and then it just pisses you off. Nancy Drew becomes a breath of fresh air, but it's nothing next to becoming a space marine who plays bad cop while interrogating crooked Turians, or going after two-hundred year-old dragons because you can, or the sure glee of convincing someone that yes, you can handle yourself in such-and-such situation. 

And for once, the game agrees with you. The game is not ignoring that you're female and pretending you're exactly the same as a male player, but saying, hey, you're a girl, and you're different, and we acknowledge that. But it doesn't matter in terms of what you can do. In game characters will, in fact, respond to what you do differently-- because they're people, and people still haven't come to terms with it. This is the big revelation. This is what makes playing a female worthwhile, just as gameplay experience. The implicit we get it, we understand what you want, and sometimes that's waiting tables, and sometimes it's pretending to be male and saving the world that way-- but it sure as f*** isn't what you want all the time.

And that's why female options are important.

Non sequitur: Kudos to whoever was saying that it's okay to explore the other side in video games, whether that be a question of sex or sexual orientation. Amen.

Edit: That... got longer than expected. >_<;; A total tl;dr on my part, oops.

Did read! Well said.

[catabuca]

maxernst wrote...

@Addai67, have you ever read Triton, by Samuel R. Delaney?  The protagonist has a sex-change in order to be the kind of woman that he wants as a man.

Just wanted to jump in and say I've just ordered this from amazon because of this post, so thank you

[Sjofn]

I like being able to play whichever gender I feel like. When there's a female option, though, it says to me that the devs remembered I exist. And I like being remembered.

[Hawksblud]

catabuca wrote...

maxernst wrote...
@Addai67, have you ever read Triton, by Samuel R. Delaney?  The protagonist has a sex-change in order to be the kind of woman that he wants as a man.

Just wanted to jump in and say I've just ordered this from amazon because of this post, so thank you

And, uh, now, so have I. xD Heard good things about Delaney from several people, and any book written in response to LeGuin can't be all bad, eh?

[yoshibb]

slimgrin wrote...

By all means, post it Catabuca, I have some theories as well....

@yoshibb: nice you could get some Witcher bashing in there, not enough of that in these parts...

Oh, I wasn't bashing the Witcher, I was just saying my computer couldn't handle it, just like it can't handle any other computer games I put in it. It took me hours upon hours to get Civilization partly running and then my computer just kept freezing. More bashing my crappy computer more than anything else. I'm sure the Witcher is a great game I just can't play it. 

Modifié par yoshibb, 15 janvier 2011 - 08:10 .

[slimgrin]

yoshibb wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

By all means, post it Catabuca, I have some theories as well....

@yoshibb: nice you could get some Witcher bashing in there, not enough of that in these parts...

I wasn't bashing the Witcher, I was just saying my computer couldn't handle it, just like it can't handle any other computer games I put in it. It took me hours upon hours to get Civilization partly running and then my computer just kept freezing. More bashing my crappy computer more than anything else. I'm sure the Witcher is a great game I just can't play it.

...Sorry. Well, that sucks. Hope you can upgrade, cause TW2 is just the tip of the iceberg for new rpg's coming out later this year. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 janvier 2011 - 08:15 .

[catabuca]

slimgrin wrote...

By all means, post it Catabuca, I have some theories as well....

By 'too lengthy to post' I think I meant 'too tangled up in my own confused ideas about my own gender and sexuality and the way it relates to society in general to post'

[Sherbet Lemon]

Hawksblud wrote...
And for once, the game agrees with you. The game is not ignoring that you're female and pretending you're exactly the same as a male player, but saying, hey, you're a girl, and you're different, and we acknowledge that. But it doesn't matter in terms of what you can do. In game characters will, in fact, respond to what you do differently-- because they're people, and people still haven't come to terms with it. This is the big revelation. This is what makes playing a female worthwhile, just as gameplay experience. The implicit we get it, we understand what you want, and sometimes that's waiting tables, and sometimes it's pretending to be male and saving the world that way-- but it sure as f*** isn't what you want all the time.

THIS.  I agree wholeheartedly!  Well said!

[catabuca]

Hawksblud wrote...

catabuca wrote...

maxernst wrote...
@Addai67, have you ever read Triton, by Samuel R. Delaney?  The protagonist has a sex-change in order to be the kind of woman that he wants as a man.

Just wanted to jump in and say I've just ordered this from amazon because of this post, so thank you

And, uh, now, so have I. xD Heard good things about Delaney from several people, and any book written in response to LeGuin can't be all bad, eh?

I'm was going to be picking up some Delaney purely for academic (no, really - he's on my PhD hitlist) reasons anyway, so might as well start with this one

[coffee soup]

Huh, i'm a female but I enjoy playing CRPGs with a male lead character. This way, the story presented in a game seems to have more depth for me, and be much more interesting and entertaining. I'm ok with a female choice, I even sometimes roll as a female (depends on the coin toss though) but it's no big difference in most CRPGs. maybe except bioware ones where a gender is tied with romance and it's pretty much the only thing that's different from the male character path.

diablo II, where classes are gender-specific, was a rather interesting idea. as well as troika's arcanum, where a female roll was an amusing experience. oh sure they weren't as status strong as males, but it only makes sense, since genders aren't only visually different, but also approach to some matters, and general points of view. females might be weaker... but more cunning, or smooth-talking? sure, why not!



But I really cannot imagine playing Mass Effect with a female lead, no matter how i try to make a different approach. Female Shepard doesn't appeal to me at all; I tried to roll as her but didn't find it entertaining at all, although it's pretty much the same story for a maleShep. Maybe the miracle of Vanderlooshep being the poster boy did its work, who knows. Also, in KotOR 1 i tried to roll as a female as well, but the whole story stopped making sense to me really quick. I could not understand, or think of any motives of a female character i was playing.

so yeah if any CRPG is strictly male it doesn't stop me from playing it. like the witcher, and gothic, and deus ex, and planescape: torment; all of them are some grand CRPGs totally worth playing. it's actually funny for me how some girls find it sexist somewhat if they don't get to choose a female option. it's role-play; not self-insert. for self-insert you might as well try good ol' table rpgs but it gets boring really quick... because it's role-playing, again! i'm already a female in real life, why not try to experience something new? i'm not saying something like "ooh i wish i were male, why the cruel fate bid me to this silly female body", because i don't, but for the sake of fun and story and roleplay, why not? so my first DA2 play will be as a default male hawke. and the next one is likely to be of he same choice hahaha.



ughh i cannot believe i de-lurked to write this! i'm so ashamed of myself!

[hangmans tree]

And I am glad I started this topic, really. Thanks for all the input in so far. It is a great read...

[KIrving]

For me the choice of gender with protagonist has now become one of those important boxes to tick when sorting the video game wheat from the chaff.
That said, I have enjoyed a number of games in the past with a set male protagonist. The Thief series, (except Deadly Shadows), Planescape Torment, Half Life series, Halo, BioShock. In those cases the gameplay and story drew me in and they all could have had a set female protagonist and worked just as well. I played these games despite the characters being male not because of it. I also enjoyed both Deus Ex games. Although Invisible War had some failings, the choice of gender of protagonist was not one of them. I've played the game several times and have never done a run through with the male Alex. (I really like the voice acting for the female Alex and the character really gels with me.)

I've had little attraction to games such as Tomb Raider and Bayonetta because the female character is objectified and isn't really designed to appeal to me as a female gamer. The most convincing and appealling female protagonists, for me, have been in adventure games.

If BioWare created a game in the future that was at least partly an RPG that only had the choice of a male protagonist I would not buy the game even if the story and game play were mind blowing. I would be so disappointed that a developer that I have admired so much, over the years, would cave into fear.

Modifié par KIrving, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:44 .

[elearon1]

>> I would be so disappointed that a developer that I have admired so much, over the years, would cave into fear.<<



You're assuming the only reason could be fear, though. What if, in the case of something like the Witcher, the character was already established as male elsewhere and it wasn't possible to change it? (and the Witcher is an excellent game, mind you. Curious why you didn't care for Deadly Shadows, by the way)



Or, the story was simply one which revolved around the concept of a male protagonist. (it was investigating gender issues; the protagonist had to be someone who could impregnate but not himself produce a child; the story revolved around a future in which a plague had reduced the female population to an minute fraction of what it is now; or somesuch other story concept) There are as many reasons a story could call for a male or female protagonist specifically as there are for one which might not discriminate. I think it reactionary and short sighted to assume any such choice need be one made out of fear. (especially considering female characters are hardly a rarity in games any more)



That said, I do wish we'd see more games with an established female lead. Games in which the default was a woman, or the only possible character was female. Unfortunately, as the marketing guys have said, the sales figures probably wouldn't be strong enough to support the latter. But perhaps if we saw more games where women shared equal cover space with the male leads?



I think every Guild Wars box had women on its cover - and while this was a prime example of exploitation (is exploitation always wrong?) - I'm betting they didn't lose sales over it. (But then, GW was a different kind of game)

[Hawksblud]

elearon1 wrote...
[...]
Or, the story was simply one which revolved around the concept of a male protagonist. (it was investigating gender issues; the protagonist had to be someone who could impregnate but not himself produce a child; the story revolved around a future in which a plague had reduced the female population to an minute fraction of what it is now; or somesuch other story concept) There are as many reasons a story could call for a male or female protagonist specifically as there are for one which might not discriminate. I think it reactionary and short sighted to assume any such choice need be one made out of fear. (especially considering female characters are hardly a rarity in games any more)
[...]

Hmm. I think my opinion on the subject is this: I have nothing wrong with a male protagonist game. What I take issue with is story direction which ignores the female player. (Sounds similar-- actually, quite different.) Lara Croft/ Tomb Raider is a franchise with a female protagonist, but it caters to a male player as well as (arguably more than) to a female player. 

If a game has a male protag, that's one thing. Does it pass the Bechdel Test? Do the women in-game appear as more than sex objects? (The Witcher fails, and fails miserably, right here, despite all its positive points.) Do their lives revolve entirely around men, or do they have motivations beyond that? Are they all either physically attractive or too young/old to "matter"? Are they given the same character development as their male counterparts? Are they, in effect, treated like real, actual, living breathing women with hopes and dreams and aspirations of their own-- or blow up dolls? Are they written to appeal (and not sexually appeal, persay, either) to a female player as well as a man?

And then, the other questions, which are more out-of-game. Can I play my protag as a homosexual or a PoC? Does the story really demand that the protag be male, or was it a case where the writers just didn't care enough to find a way around that limitation? Does the game studio have a history of making games equally balanced between either-sex, male-only, and female-only protags, or is this one in a string of male-only oh-really-we-had-no-choice decisions? Are there females involved in the studio itself?

But in the end, having only a male protagonist is a different design/story decision than catering only to a male gamer. Unfortunately, the later is as much 'the norm' as the former, if not more so.

[yoshibb]

elearon1 wrote...
Or, the story was simply one which revolved around the concept of a male protagonist. (it was investigating gender issues; the protagonist had to be someone who could impregnate but not himself produce a child; the story revolved around a future in which a plague had reduced the female population to an minute fraction of what it is now; or somesuch other story concept) There are as many reasons a story could call for a male or female protagonist specifically as there are for one which might not discriminate. I think it reactionary and short sighted to assume any such choice need be one made out of fear. (especially considering female characters are hardly a rarity in games any more)

See, it's ok to do that, but it's all the time. For example, let's look at all the games with a male protagonist over the past year. I'm kind of going over a list of the most popular games and from what I remember playing:

Darksiders, Dante’s inferno, Bioshock 2, Bad Company 2, God of War 3, Alan Wake, Alpha Protocol, Red Dead Redemption, No More Heroes 2, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Dead Rising 2, Halo: Reach, The Force Unleashed 2, Castlevania, Assassin’s Creed: Brotherhood, and Call of Duty: Black Ops


I'm sure there's more lesser known games that have male protagonists that I'm forgetting. Now taking out all the other games with choice in gender of protagonist and heavy uses of fanservice (ie Bayonetta), what’s left for the female protagonist?


Metroid: the Other M. And that’s pretty weak, considering how her character was portrayed in the game.

Can you see why that would possibly get annoying and tiring for females after a while? I would not be happy if Bioware decided to do this because their games are one of few games that actually feel truly involved with the experience. To not just feel like 'this is just a game.'

And I'm glad you think that there should be more female protagonists, but I would really only want games where the female was a Lady Hawke or Female Shepard type.

At this point though, I'm just happy to have one or two games a year that give me this opportunity 

Modifié par yoshibb, 16 janvier 2011 - 02:46 .

[DJBare]

I'm male and nearly always choose the female character, in ME1&2 I have six female charaters and one male(default), in DA:O four female and one male(not default), I don't know whether it's psychological or not enough numbers to compare, but my female characters always appear to kick ass better, but I am aware of what puts me off male characters and that's because they are stereotypical.

[Spazztik]

This is just one woman's opinion but to me playing a fixed character (99% of the time male) doesnt really make a difference to me if the story and game are worth playing.

But I love being able to choose to be a female. It makes a big difference to me to play a game where I can more imagine myself as the character, whether than someone playing a game or watching a movie (with interactions involved) Now in more and more games having the choice its harder and harder to come back to choosing to play as a man. (when I dont have a choice doesn't matter) As far as it goes I've played DAO I can't tell how many times as a female and finished the game and am trying to force myself to create a male warden and play all the way through to at least say I did it. (mainly because I wanna romance Morrigan and not be a cheater XD)

Modifié par Spazztik, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:33 .

[Liablecocksman]

DJBare wrote...

I'm male and nearly always choose the female character, in ME1&2 I have six female charaters and one male(default), in DA:O four female and one male(not default), I don't know whether it's psychological or not enough numbers to compare, but my female characters always appear to kick ass better, but I am aware of what puts me off male characters and that's because they are stereotypical.

But how are the character stereotypical when they are characters you create yourself? You even, within reason, decide their morality. You could basically subvert any stereotype you wanted to.

[Ziggeh]

Liable****sman wrote...
You could basically subvert any stereotype you wanted to.

You can rarely make them cowards, which is my general go to trope of amusing heroics.

[Aynslie]

Since more and more games are giving a female option for female gamers I find it very hard to play a game that offers only a male character as the protagonist. Unless that character is Batman. But I find it hard to get into a role playing game as a guy, and getting romance options as a guy to the women in the party. Its just weird to me. In ALL of my Bioware history from Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Jade Empire, ME, DAO, and ME2 I have played ONLY as a female character, and I'm not even worried about how the guy's story goes.