261 réponses à ce sujet

[Korva]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Well, I can decide that my Warden has feelings for Alistair and is happy that he offered her a rose, or that she didn't expect to be misunderstood in such a manner and can't decide how to handle the situation, or whatever, but the depth of characterization ends there. The elaborate characterization and the associated empathic relation I would be able to achieve with a male character isn't present in this situation.

I could be wrong, but it seems you're half-looking for a kind of "default reaction" for women, or a default "state of mind"? I just don't think there is one (and you seem to realize that too, so it confuses me a bit that you keep going back to the question). Tendencies, yes, created and reinforced to no small degree by social expectations. But no one "this is what a woman would feel, say and do". You state it yourself that there could be x different reactions. They depend on what the woman in question feels for Alistair (among other things).

So I don't think that's a gender issue, just a matter of roleplaying a characer who rather different from you. Which, eh, is a gender issue in this case to a degree, but not entirely. It can also be cultural, religious/spiritual, sexual orientation, body image, whatever, in varying degrees for different people.

[panamakira]

Well there aren't that many games with the option of female characters or even a set female main character only. I find it awesome because I don't have to be a dude to kick-ass in a game. This industry is obviously dominated by male gamers, so it's nice that us ladies have that option. One of the main reasons I loved Origins. The female warden didn't necessarily feel out of place. She saved Ferelden and became the hero just as a male warden could.

Edit: to make more sense? lol

Modifié par panamakira, 12 janvier 2011 - 11:43 .

[ErichHartmann]

I rarely buy RPGs with forced male protagonists. I understand it when the game is designed around a specific character (or characters) but I expect the majority of "western" RPGs to give me the choice.

[Miri1984]

I have no problem playing a game with a fixed gender protagonist. But I LOOOVE being a chick and I'm far more likely to replay a game that gives me that option.

[maxernst]

panamakira wrote...

Well there aren't that many games I think, let alone RPGs, with the option of female characters or even a set female main character only. I find it awesome because I don't have to be a dude to kick-ass in a fantasy RPG game. .

This seems to me a strange comment, but I've seen it said elsewhere as well.  Maybe it's a difference of how we define RPG or platform?  I can only think of two PC RPG's I've ever played where you were forced to be male--Planescape: Torment and The Witcher.  The games I've encountered with male-only protagonists were almost all shooters or shooters with some RPG elements (Deus Ex).  Adventure games, in my experience, are female-protagonist more often than not.

[panamakira]

maxernst wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Well there aren't that many games I think, let alone RPGs, with the option of female characters or even a set female main character only. I find it awesome because I don't have to be a dude to kick-ass in a fantasy RPG game. .

This seems to me a strange comment, but I've seen it said elsewhere as well.  Maybe it's a difference of how we define RPG or platform?  I can only think of two PC RPG's I've ever played where you were forced to be male--Planescape: Torment and The Witcher.  The games I've encountered with male-only protagonists were almost all shooters or shooters with some RPG elements (Deus Ex).  Adventure games, in my experience, are female-protagonist more often than not.

Yeah no I fixed it. I thought about it and meant games in general. How the target audience for these type of fantasy RPGs seems to be mostly males and even though they give you the option to be a female character, if you notice even Dragon Age promotes the game as being a bad-ass male warden or male Hawke, yet there is the option of being female and all that once you play the game.

I hope that makes more sense. I read my previous comment and typed it too fast to make any sense.

Modifié par panamakira, 12 janvier 2011 - 11:44 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Korva wrote...

I could be wrong, but it seems you're half-looking for a kind of "default reaction" for women, or a default "state of mind"? I just don't think there is one (and you seem to realize that too, so it confuses me a bit that you keep going back to the question). Tendencies, yes, created and reinforced to no small degree by social expectations. But no one "this is what a woman would feel, say and do". You state it yourself that there could be x different reactions. They depend on what the woman in question feels for Alistair (among other things).

So I don't think that's a gender issue, just a matter of roleplaying a characer who rather different from you. Which, eh, is a gender issue in this case to a degree, but not entirely. It can also be cultural, religious/spiritual, sexual orientation, body image, whatever, in varying degrees for different people.

No, not at all. I'm simply saying that I cannot connect with a female character as easily as I could with a male one because I am, well, male and not in possession of female insight which would help me with character depth, particularly in certain situations. Hence I feel a degree of sympathy for those female players who don't like playing male roles in games. That's all. No questions, no expectations, no urging BioWarians to take steps towards making anything easier for me.

[Remmirath]

It would annoy me if the character could only be male - but it would annoy me a lot if you couldn't create your own character at all. That's more important to me than whether they can be male or female, since I'll play male characters about half the time anyhow. (More than half if the armour turns out to look in-my-opinion absurd on female characters, but that's a seperate issue.) 

In the particular case of Dragon Age II, not being able to play a female character would probably be the straw that broke the camel's back, since it would add to my great dislike of the voice-acted PC and dialogue wheel. If those things weren't there, it would be a fairly large annoyance but not a strong enough one to not play the game (although it would certainly bother me and I would wonder why the option had been removed).

Having a completely pre-determined character, however, is a huge mark against a game for me - and that's why I haven't played The Witcher yet, not because that character happens to be male. A large part of the reason I play RPGs in the first place is so I can make my own character.
Now, Planescape: Torment is one of my favourite games despite that, so if I ever happen to run out of games to play I'll probably give The Witcher a try - but I'll always gravitate towards games where you can create your own character as completely as possible.

[Maria Caliban]

maxernst wrote...

This seems to me a strange comment, but I've seen it said elsewhere as well.  Maybe it's a difference of how we define RPG or platform?  I can only think of two PC RPG's I've ever played where you were forced to be male--Planescape: Torment and The Witcher.  The games I've encountered with male-only protagonists were almost all shooters or shooters with some RPG elements (Deus Ex).  Adventure games, in my experience, are female-protagonist more often than not.

Off the top of my head:
Anachronox
Arx Fatalis
Bard's Tale
Deus Ex
Eschalon: Book I
Fable I
Gothic (all)
Lionheart
Planescape: Torment
Remnant Last, The
Revenant
Risen
System Shock 1 and 2, BioShock 1-2
Throne of Darkness
Quest for Glory
Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption
Witcher, The

[GodWood]

Bioshock's an RPG?

[Maria Caliban]

GodWood wrote...

Bioshock's an RPG?

As I hit submit, I thought 'I bet people will start arguing as to whether something is an RPG or not.'

It says RPG on the box.

[Merci357]

GodWood wrote...

Bioshock's an RPG?

You can easily remove Bioshock from Maria's list, and add Alpha Protocoll instead. I guess the point is, besides BioWare/Bethesda games male only protagonists are everything but uncommon in a RPG.

[maxernst]

Maria Caliban wrote...

maxernst wrote...

This seems to me a strange comment, but I've seen it said elsewhere as well.  Maybe it's a difference of how we define RPG or platform?  I can only think of two PC RPG's I've ever played where you were forced to be male--Planescape: Torment and The Witcher.  The games I've encountered with male-only protagonists were almost all shooters or shooters with some RPG elements (Deus Ex).  Adventure games, in my experience, are female-protagonist more often than not.

Off the top of my head:
Anachronox
Arx Fatalis
Bard's Tale
Deus Ex
Eschalon: Book I
Fable I
Gothic (all)
Lionheart
Planescape: Torment
Remnant Last, The
Revenant
Risen
System Shock 1 and 2, BioShock 1-2
Throne of Darkness
Quest for Glory
Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption
Witcher, The

I'd forgotten that about Arx Fatalis.  The Deus Ex, System Shock and Bioshock games (and Anachronox?) would fall into the category of hybrid shooters (which I specifically mentioned I wasn't thinking of). Most of those games have so little interpersonal interaction that your sex doesn't matter very much.  I haven't played any of the others.   Fable I really surprises me on that list, I must say. 

Still, there are lots and lots of games which do allow both sexes--like everything by Bethesda, at least in the last decade, everything by Black Isle,  Bioware, and Obsidian, and at least the Ultima Games, the Might & Magic games, and Wizardry games that I'm familiar with.  And all the MMORPG's, surely.

[Lord of Creation]

As a guy my first play through in a RPG is going to be male 99% of the time. However, I have found the character I go through the game with on the second, or third, play through is the one I connect the most with. From DA:O it was my Female City Elf, started after the competition of my male Dalish Elf, that became my favorite character. I found the origin story to be just that more compelling than the others and that it was that particular play through which really sold me on DA:O.

It does strike me as a bit odd when someone says they do not create any characters of the opposite sex for games like Origins, Mass Effect, or Jade Empire as the options concerning NPC attitude towards that character's gender, be it a general dispatition or a matter of romance, are what intrigues me the most. Yet, at the same time, I am thrilled that at least we are all getting the option to choose our character's gender because that way we are all allowed to decide if we really want to find out if Zevran comes off creepy towards the Grey Warden based on the Warden's gender or just because Zevran is creepy.

Now if someone was trying to sell me a RPG title where the choice to create a female protagonist was not present I would not necessarily consider that in and of itself a deal breaker on the game but there would be some definite hesitation. Being able to select the gender of the character one is creating should be something a developer sees as a fundamental basic rather than a bonus that they can include. When that developer starts taking away creation options for a game that is supposedly about the player being in control of whom the hero is going to be it makes me concerned about what choices could have stripped from the game as to make it easier to design.

Modifié par Lord of Creation, 13 janvier 2011 - 06:54 .

[Kidd]

Korva wrote...

I could be wrong, but it seems you're half-looking for a kind of "default reaction" for women, or a default "state of mind"? I just don't think there is one (and you seem to realize that too, so it confuses me a bit that you keep going back to the question). Tendencies, yes, created and reinforced to no small degree by social expectations. But no one "this is what a woman would feel, say and do". You state it yourself that there could be x different reactions. They depend on what the woman in question feels for Alistair (among other things).

I believe what he means is more along the lines of knowing full well there's several reactions, he can also decide what he feels is appropriate for his Warden to feel and all that. But he can't, for instance, feel the butterflies and let them guide him when he's given a flower.

He understands why on a logical plane, and empathical to a degree as well - but he is unable to truly share the feeling and get the most out of the deep connection he imagines a girl can have with her Warden at that time.

Least, that's how I read him ^^;

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

An RPG where you could actually play both genders and they will differ significally would be an awesome thing and I would definitely try it, but there is none. The one example where gameplay as a woman was interesing is fan-made romances for Baldur's Gate, and they were just amazing.. I think while there were many authors, Domi checked them all for cogency.. Xan romance was pretty fun too.

So, as for DA, i played some female characters, but it was't fun. In my opinion, to do a female dialogue lines means rewriting the whole damn dialogue system, like.. everything. Because, sure, you can romance males, and chit-chat with Leliana about shoes, but you can do much on this as a male, too. There is nothing that really blows into your face as an explosion, mostly, people treat female warden just as male one. Same can be said about Mass Effect.

Sith Lords is a diffirent story, but there are few who remember it.

So, i find gender choosing mostly irrelevant for a gameplay as a whole.

[HolyJellyfish]

I'll be honest. I wouldn't have picked up the game if it didn't have the option for female protagonist.



The gaming industry is already dominated by a lot of iconic male characters. Its tiring and exhausting when you can't find a game you can relate to, especially when it is suppose to be a roleplaying experience where you fill in the shoes and make important choices for the lead person. I just can't relate to the opposite gender from certain experiences. I can sympathize, but I can't relate.



When more and more highly praised games these days are featuring lady options (L4D, Halo Reach, and Fallout to name a few), it just seems flat out lazy and disingenuous for a roleplay game or certain threads of shooters NOT to include the female option.

[HolyJellyfish]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

An RPG where you could actually play both genders and they will differ significally would be an awesome thing and I would definitely try it, but there is none. The one example where gameplay as a woman was interesing is fan-made romances for Baldur's Gate, and they were just amazing.. I think while there were many authors, Domi checked them all for cogency.. Xan romance was pretty fun too.
So, as for DA, i played some female characters, but it was't fun. In my opinion, to do a female dialogue lines means rewriting the whole damn dialogue system, like.. everything. Because, sure, you can romance males, and chit-chat with Leliana about shoes, but you can do much on this as a male, too. There is nothing that really blows into your face as an explosion, mostly, people treat female warden just as male one. Same can be said about Mass Effect.
Sith Lords is a diffirent story, but there are few who remember it.
So, i find gender choosing mostly irrelevant for a gameplay as a whole.

To be frank, I liked this about DA & Mass Effect. It was nice that the Female Shepard was treated almost exactly like the Male character, with only slight variations in some dialogue. Hell, I even liked that she sat like him and walked like him. Fine by me.

I am treated with gender distinction a little too often in the real world. Its nice to get into the RP fantasy realm where such distinctions are almost non existent and unimportant.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Its nice to get into the RP fantasy realm where such distinctions are almost non existent and unimportant.

I am a guy, if you don't mind my point of view from that perspective, read on.
I am also a role-playing fan, if you don't mind.. ecetera.

Now, while it is OK for femShep and maleShep to act same, as they are born from ultramodern human society where gender question is blurred entirely, I pretty much disagree about the fantasy realm. DA seems to be a dark medieval setting. And that means that a distinction between males and females must be huge. Basically, I can't understand why in the setting like that there is no such clear distinction about from which social group my woman-character comes from.. which is boring. If I am playing some peasant girl who took a sword, I want to see some knights that say to Warden "Shut up lass, big men are talking". If I am playing a woman of noble stature I want to command those pesky peasants which approach you at first town to back ****ing off, or my noble highness would order to "off with their heads". I want my female-mage be treated as a witch, like Morrigan. I think the toughest thing which Bioware did for girls is that you can't become a queen unless u r a human "princess". That was pure, harsh medieval logic, and that was awesome. I want more of that. I want shoes-talking be restricted to women. I want female warden rumour and girly-talk about her companions not with Alistair, but whisper about it with Lileana. Cause she is a girl, and is't it more appropriate to pick 'em to pieces with other girl rather than with Alistair? "I sir am a lady", that is.

Some could point to me that there is a distinction, for example about how your dwarven sister is treated or elven bride, but it would be just nitpicking, cause again, all of this is pretty much reserved for origin stories which are like 5% of whole gameplay.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:14 .

[Allison W]

I dunno, I can think of more than a few women who would have no interest in talking shoes and more than a few men who would.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Allison W

Do they live in 15th century?

[Naitaka]

Well to be fair, Ferelden view on women is pretty liberal in general (As per prequal novels), and mages are treated with such fear and distain i doubt that a female mage going boo will cause more children cry in terror than a male one. Also one can argue that the lack of distinction between the dialogues of male and female Warden comes in the fact that there are M/M, F/F romance and who knows? you just might have some male Warden who are into shoes. IMO, as long as those options, stay as options, you can always choose NOT to use them to suit your role-playing purpose, but I do agree that more situation like the only human noble can be queen ones would be great.

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:23 .

[Matchy Pointy]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Allison W
Do they live in 15th century?

Does the characters in DA:O live in the 15th century?

[HoonDing]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

An RPG where you could actually play both genders and they will differ significally would be an awesome thing and I would definitely try it, but there is none.

Fallout 2.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Naitaka
I can say, that overall, even without talking about genders, Ferelden lacks those things that setting of DA is supposed to be about.
I mean, there were 2 things in DAO which made me think about how "dark" and "different" this world is - cutting head of Logain and that thing with human lady becoming a princess. Those things, Logain's death specifically, countered my modern logic and my world perspective. It is absolutely, 100% right in that setting to kill the villain for his crimes so everyone will see what a piece of **** he was. However, I was torned apart while doing it, cause Bioware teached me that if you choose "paragon/goody/light side" you should't act like that.
That was pretty good.

Fallout 2.

Hm.. yeah close. But not enough.. but really close. But those were the *dark* times, no limitations, fair play politics, no s*** )

Does the characters in DA:O live in the 15th century?

They live in something like "dark medieval times", I want to see that. It's the point.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:31 .