261 réponses à ce sujet

[Matchy Pointy]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Naitaka
I can say, that overall, even without talking about genders, Ferelden lacks those things that setting of DA is supposed to be about.
I mean, there were 2 things in DAO which made me think about how "dark" and "different" this world is - cutting head of Logain and that thing with human lady becoming a princess. Those things, Logain's death specifically, countered my modern logic and my world perspective. It is absolutely, 100% right in that setting to kill the villain for his crimes so everyone will see what a piece of **** he was. However, I was torned apart while doing it, cause Bioware teached me that if you choose "paragon/goody/light side" you should't act like that.
That was pretty good.

Fallout 2.

Hm.. yeah close. But not enough.. but really close. But those were the *dark* times, no limitations, fair play politics, no s*** )

Does the characters in DA:O live in the 15th century?

They live in something like "dark medieval times", I want to see that. It's the point.

They live in Fereldan, a county in Thedas, none of wich have any connection to our own "dark" medieval times (wich wasn't all that dark).

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Could I call him an a****** here without being banned? No?



..ehh.

[AngelicMachinery]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Could I call him an a****** here without being banned? No?

..ehh.

What are you going on about?

[Naitaka]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

They live in Fereldan, a county in Thedas, none of wich have any connection to our own "dark" medieval times (wich wasn't all that dark).

I thought the dark in Dark Age is meant to signify the unenlighted/uneducated state that Europe was in after the fall of the Roman empire both qualities I'm pretty sure the peasants in Thedas fulfill pretty ably. Anyway, I find the option to kill/spare the Architect to be one the most conflicting one for me and my character. I played a "the end justify the mean" kind of Warden in most of my playthrough and that is the one descision that's so jarringly different from my own personal value that I find it hard to kill him despite the fact I know my character can't do otherwise.

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:46 .

[Matchy Pointy]

Naitaka wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

They live in Fereldan, a county in Thedas, none of wich have any connection to our own "dark" medieval times (wich wasn't all that dark).

I thought the dark in Dark Age is meant to signify the unenlighted/uneducated state that Europe was in after the fall of the Roman empire both quality I'm pretty sure the peasants in Thedas fulfill pretty ably. Anyway, I find the option to kill/spare the Architect to be one the most conflicting one for me and my character. I played a "the end justify the mean" kind of Warden in most of my playthrough and that is the one descision that's so jarringly different from my own personal value that I find it hard to kill him despite the fact I know my character can't do otherwise.

The "Dark Ages" wasn't really as dark as popular imaginations imagine (not to be said they were a walk in the park, but then again, when have life ever been that?). As for thh architecht, I wanted to spare him when I was there, but I jsut couldnt justify it for myself, he might have had a noble goal, but he went it it in all the wrong ways.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

What are you going on about?

Sorry, forgot to quote everything that was said so you would know what I am talking about.

Nevermind, me sorry, me be queit.

[Ladybright]

Let me just say that if the game had been like DamnThoseDisplayNames described I would not have bought it. I prefer to avoid blatant prejudice in games. It does not increase immersion or enjoyment for me -- it makes me angry and frustrated.

Modifié par Ladybright, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:55 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Ladybright wrote...

Let me just say that if the game had been like DamnThoseDisplayNames described I would not have bought it. I prefer to avoid blatant prejudice in games. It does not increase immersion or enjoyment for me -- it makes me angry and frustrated.

I will agree with this,  I don't want to play Dragon Age: Get Back to the Kitchen.

[Naitaka]

Ladybright wrote...

Let me just say that if the game had been like DamnThoseDisplayNames described I would not have bought it. I prefer to avoid blatant prejudice in games. It does not increase immersion or enjoyment for me -- it makes me angry and frustrated.

But there ARE blatant prejudice in DA:O and I find it even more interesting if they become a source of conflict in their setting. I don't see how you can enjoy a game where elves and mages are treated with such such obvious disdain if you only find that kind of behavior offensive. Personally I find it intriguing and allows for more room for role-play, not to mention much more satisfying when I achieve something worthwhile against it.

[snfonseka]

I think, if it is a RPG then gender matters. Because some of us are considering that the gender also part of that experience. If the game is a non RPG game, then it won't be a matter or at least it will be a minor issue.

[HolyJellyfish]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Its nice to get into the RP fantasy realm where such distinctions are almost non existent and unimportant.

I am a guy, if you don't mind my point of view from that perspective, read on.
I am also a role-playing fan, if you don't mind.. ecetera.

Now, while it is OK for femShep and maleShep to act same, as they are born from ultramodern human society where gender question is blurred entirely, I pretty much disagree about the fantasy realm. DA seems to be a dark medieval setting. And that means that a distinction between males and females must be huge. Basically, I can't understand why in the setting like that there is no such clear distinction about from which social group my woman-character comes from.. which is boring. If I am playing some peasant girl who took a sword, I want to see some knights that say to Warden "Shut up lass, big men are talking". If I am playing a woman of noble stature I want to command those pesky peasants which approach you at first town to back ****ing off, or my noble highness would order to "off with their heads". I want my female-mage be treated as a witch, like Morrigan. I think the toughest thing which Bioware did for girls is that you can't become a queen unless u r a human "princess". That was pure, harsh medieval logic, and that was awesome. I want more of that. I want shoes-talking be restricted to women. I want female warden rumour and girly-talk about her companions not with Alistair, but whisper about it with Lileana. Cause she is a girl, and is't it more appropriate to pick 'em to pieces with other girl rather than with Alistair? "I sir am a lady", that is.

Some could point to me that there is a distinction, for example about how your dwarven sister is treated or elven bride, but it would be just nitpicking, cause again, all of this is pretty much reserved for origin stories which are like 5% of whole gameplay.

Yeah I disagree entirely.

Medieval? Hardly. More like strict fantasy madness. If it were Medieval, Anora vouching herself as queen without a husband would be laughable at best - this simply didn't happen ever, and if it did, it was because the "queen" in question was legitimized by her royal father. Even then, this often had implications and caused civil war (Look at the War of Anarchy in Medieval England).

Yeah. I like my lack of gender distinction in my videogames. I get enough of that crap bombarded on me in history books, movies, TV programs, and simply walking down the street. Its a breath of fresh air when there is one game that only nods in that direction rarely.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Yeah. I like my lack of gender distinction in my videogames. I get enough of that crap bombarded on me in history books, movies, TV programs, and simply walking down the street. Its a breath of fresh air when there is one game that only nods in that direction rarely.

This.

No reason to pay heed to the failings of society past or present unless doing so makes for a more interesting story. Or you're making a historically accurate game as opposed to one inspired by history.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I get enough of that crap bombarded on me in history books

Me was quiet and sorry, but should reply at least to be polite, yes?



And I do not.

Really, I don't get my part of crap bombarded on me. You can play as a male, as a hero, or as a woman which acts just same as a male hero, having her part of the heroic story and ecetera, something that males always try to steal and put their muscle guy on the pedestal of protagonist. However, it seems unjust to me O_o I played as a male hero other and other again, and in most games, fantasy settings and systems like D&D included, there is no diffirence what gender I am playing. That is unjust! Here comes a game, all that spooky and dark, and I can't even roleplay a poor woman who is treated like dirt, but anyway hold 'er sword to show em males what stupid animal they are. Why could't I play Red Sonya like character, being a strong female in a male grimdarkwaaagh world and be unique in that, kicking Logain in a balls when he starts acting all chauvinistic on me? Instead there are women in full plate armor everywhere which ruin my character's unique story







Ok that was more a joke, but there is some part of truth in it. And the main idea is that games are not allowed to be serious in such things, like they are a piece of art which is prohibited from trying to draw a serious reality and unuqie plot twists from it. Elves and mages can be treated like dirt, but women do not, cause noone would like to "play that s***". In my opinion, that is sad, especially taking an RPG genre wich is considired somelike "elite" of them all.

[Korva]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

To be frank, I liked this about DA & Mass Effect. It was nice that the Female Shepard was treated almost exactly like the Male character, with only slight variations in some dialogue. Hell, I even liked that she sat like him and walked like him. Fine by me.

I am treated with gender distinction a little too often in the real world. Its nice to get into the RP fantasy realm where such distinctions are almost non existent and unimportant.

Amen. A heavily gender-differentiated game full of bigotry, abuse and harassment may be an "interesting" experience for a male player -- but why would those of us who do not have the privilege as treating it as mere entertainment but are constantly faced with the ugliness of "othering" in the real world have to put up with more and worse of the same crap in our games? I can't think of many things that would put me off a game/franchise faster and more permanently.

[Matchy Pointy]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I get enough of that crap bombarded on me in history books

Me was quiet and sorry, but should reply at least to be polite, yes?

And I do not.
Really, I don't get my part of crap bombarded on me. You can play as a male, as a hero, or as a woman which acts just same as a male hero, having her part of the heroic story and ecetera, something that males always try to steal and put their muscle guy on the pedestal of protagonist. However, it seems unjust to me O_o I played as a male hero other and other again, and in most games, fantasy settings and systems like D&D included, there is no diffirence what gender I am playing. That is unjust! Here comes a game, all that spooky and dark, and I can't even roleplay a poor woman who is treated like dirt, but anyway hold 'er sword to show em males what stupid animal they are. Why could't I play Red Sonya like character, being a strong female in a male grimdarkwaaagh world and be unique in that, kicking Logain in a balls when he starts acting all chauvinistic on me? Instead there are women in full plate armor everywhere which ruin my character's unique story



Ok that was more a joke, but there is some part of truth in it. And the main idea is that games are not allowed to be serious in such things, like they are a piece of art which is prohibited from trying to draw a serious reality and unuqie plot twists from it. Elves and mages can be treated like dirt, but women do not, cause noone would like to "play that s***". In my opinion, that is sad, especially taking an RPG genre wich is considired somelike "elite" of them all.

If you want that, play the A Dance with Rogues module to NWN.

Personally though, I get enough of injustice and narrow mindedness liek that in real life, i find it refreshing in games where man, woman, don't relly matter (my own viewset on things).

Modifié par Matchy Pointy, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:40 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

If you want that, play the A Dance with Rogues module to NWN.

I played it ))) was fun, but a little "too much" fun, it's more a parody on those Conan-like plots.

[Naitaka]

Korva wrote...

Amen. A heavily gender-differentiated game full of bigotry, abuse and harassment may be an "interesting" experience for a male player -- but why would those of us who do not have the privilege as treating it as mere entertainment but are constantly faced with the ugliness of "othering" in the real world have to put up with more and worse of the same crap in our games? I can't think of many things that would put me off a game/franchise faster and more permanently.

Because you get the chance to do something about it in game and through your action make as much impact on that society as the game allows, something that might not have been possible in the real world? Because then there will be differenciation between characters who ARE bigots and those who aren't. The more varied and dinstinct the character traits at the writer's exposal, the more memorable the characters will become, especially when, in this case, it will draw strong emotional response from both your character and yourself as a player? I don't know, I always find such case to be more satisfying and epic than when you're the chosen one whom everyone treat with respect from the get go.

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:49 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh. I agree with Korva. Nothing would turn me off a game faster than being treated like crap. If I wanted that all I'd have to do is walk outside.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Naitaka
Great reasoning and thinking, I applaud

If I wanted that all I'd have to do is walk outside.

In some sense I can understand that, as I had my talks with female roleplayers and "the hero is always the man" problem is known to me, but I can't help but wonder which country all of the girls here live in. As it's the same reason everywhere - "I am treated like that in real life all the time". I can be delusional, however..
....and that's why it would be cool to play a female character that feels and explains to a gamer all the "..I take that bulls*** all the time", heh.

Reminds me of Shar-Teel. Good old......

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[Korva]

Naitaka wrote...

But there ARE blatant prejudice in DA:O and I find it even more interesting if they become a source of conflict in their setting. I don't see how you can enjoy a game where elves and mages are treated with such such obvious disdain if you only find that kind of behavior offensive.

Why? It's simple: elves and mages do not exist, women do. There is an immense difference between exploring issues of prejudice against a group of entirely fictional beings and bringing the experience of everyday real-world bigotry and hate into my entertainment where I want to get away from it. Misogny (like homophobia) is a real, immediate issue that crosses comfort lines much more quickly and easily because we have been there. Not one of us knows or will ever know what it is like to, for example, live with the constant temptation and danger of demonic possession, or with the (not entirely unfounded) fear that this may spark in everyone around us. But sexist harassment, abuse, degradation and victim-blaming? That is real. And it is not fun in any way, shape or form.

Misogny is also much, much broader. It'd affect fully 50% of all player character options. As it is now, if you want the "treated like dirt" experience, it is your choice. A misogynistic world would remove that choice.

[Ryzaki]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...
In some sense I can understand that, as I had my talks with female roleplayers and "the hero is always the man" problem is known to me, but I can't help but wonder which country all of the girls here live in. As it's the same reason everywhere - "I am treated like that in real life all the time". I can be delusional, however..
....and that's why it would be cool to play a female character that feels and explains to a gamer all the "..I take that bulls*** all the time", heh.

Meh. It's not so cool when you're living it is all I'll say.

Games for me are escapist entertainment and personally something like what you proposed would just turn me off. It wouldnt be fun anymore.


That said different strokes for different folks. Ironically I'd be far more interested in playing a scrawny bookworm male who ries to the top through intelluctual ability.

Then again I have a thing for smart underdog guys. <3

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

in playing a scrawny bookworm male who ries to the top through intelluctual ability

By the way, a really popular character for women to play in forum/chat/real life RP. I ended up like 3 times with a female who plays male bookworm rising to power in 3 different projects. Something to think about.

Korva
Yeah I pointed it already. Games are for fun, and are prohibited to become a satire of real world. However, when they do, they tend to be.. well.. awesome. "Troika" games like Fallout 2 and Arcanum treat gender diffirences amazingly well and funny.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:08 .

[blothulfur]

There may be an in game explanation for the more equal gender roles of thedas in that the prophet of the andrastian church was female, and her priests are also (except in tevinter).

A lot of early cultures had a more equal role in society for women such as the norse whose women were notoriously fierce and strong willed with many rights under the things laws, and it was the christian all women are evil brigade that changed this.

Plus the writing team has some damn talented women working on it.

[Naitaka]

Korva wrote...

Why? It's simple: elves and mages do not exist, women do. There is an immense difference between exploring issues of prejudice against a group of entirely fictional beings and bringing the experience of everyday real-world bigotry and hate into my entertainment where I want to get away from it. Misogny (like homophobia) is a real, immediate issue that crosses comfort lines much more quickly and easily because we have been there. Not one of us knows or will ever know what it is like to, for example, live with the constant temptation and danger of demonic possession, or with the (not entirely unfounded) fear that this may spark in everyone around us. But sexist harassment, abuse, degradation and victim-blaming? That is real. And it is not fun in any way, shape or form.

Misogny is also much, much broader. It'd affect fully 50% of all player character options. As it is now, if you want the "treated like dirt" experience, it is your choice. A misogynistic world would remove that choice.

And likewise isn't racism, religious opression and poverty also very real in our world? One can make the argument that such depiction in game would be part of their everyday real-world experience as well. Where do you draw the line between what is detached enough as to not appear offensive and what is not when it's largely based on each individual's opinion? Is it then better to restrict entertainment to only what's considered politically correct in accordance to modern value?

Also, I want to thank everyone for such an interesting discussion and say that I can understand where you are coming from, but I also wonder how much room is there for games to raise for cultural and intercultural questions, just think how many great works in film and literature would not have been made if political correctness were their major concern.

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[Ladybright]

Naitaka wrote...

Ladybright wrote...

Let me just say that if the game had been like DamnThoseDisplayNames described I would not have bought it. I prefer to avoid blatant prejudice in games. It does not increase immersion or enjoyment for me -- it makes me angry and frustrated.

But there ARE blatant prejudice in DA:O and I find it even more interesting if they become a source of conflict in their setting. I don't see how you can enjoy a game where elves and mages are treated with such such obvious disdain if you only find that kind of behavior offensive. Personally I find it intriguing and allows for more room for role-play, not to mention much more satisfying when I achieve something worthwhile against it.

Let me specify.

In DA:O, there was prejudice against elves and mages and sometimes women. It existed, but it was not all-consuming. In most instances, the warden is treated exactly same regardless of their gender, race, or magical ability. In the type of game DTDN proposes, blatant sexism would be a major focus and impediment to female characters.

Only one of these three groups (elves, mages, and women) exists in real life. When I encounter prejudice against elves or anti-mage sentiments in DA:O, there's a degree of separation between me and my character. It rankles my characters, but that's roleplaying. Beyond my character, I have no personal connection to elves or mages. In real life, I never hear "Don't be such a mage!" or "Dude, stop being such a f****** elf and deal with it!"

I am female. If I were to play Dragon Age: Gette Back To Thine Kitchenn, all the "Only men fight! GTFO, little lady!" would bypass roleplaying entirely and just remind me of the sexist crap my brother pulls sometimes, the way my roommates talk about their female classmates, "yeah, they were acting like a bunch of women," being told that my friend is a ****ty b****, etc.

That isn't fun. It's still not fun if it's in a game. I respect that other people, male and female, have different opinions; this is mine.

I really liked DA:O. I just wasn't particularly heartbroken when Murdock accidentally died, or when Vaughn kicked the bucket.

Edit: It seems in the time I was writing my post what I have said has already been said by Korva, HolyJellyfish, Ryzaki, and PseudoCognition. More fuel for the fire, I guess.

Modifié par Ladybright, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .