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#176
Naitaka

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Ladybright wrote...

Let me specify.

In DA:O, there was prejudice against elves and mages and sometimes women. It existed, but it was not all-consuming. In most instances, the warden is treated exactly same regardless of their gender, race, or magical ability. In the type of game DTDN proposes, blatant sexism would be a major focus and impediment to female characters.


Ah, I guess DTDN's post didn't come across to me as wishing to have blatant sexism as an all-encompassing aspect of playing female Warden in the game. I thought he just meant there should be more situations where NPC response would differ base on what gender/origin you are playing. (He did make the example of offing people's head with noble in the same sentence, so this is the impression I got from his post) But I've totally forgotten about Murlock's reaction to female warden, it's just been too long since I've played the game properly without going 1 2 1 3 and rapidly pressing the esc key I guess. :P

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:29 .


#177
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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Nah, blatant sexism is more like a joke and exaggeration of my thoughts. The main idea is truly about roleplay setting which game occurs being true and honest to itself, not hiding behind the curtains of political correctness, so a girl who would be offended that she is treated badly while playing some low peasantess would not buy a game.

But you pointed important things, ofcourse I would enjoy more gender/origin twists, hell I would.

Though I still enjoyed A Dance with Rogues ))

Still, honestly, if I would write a dialogue which a woman would interact, I still believe I would write it from pure, white blank sheet. Not just changing line here and there. And with a woman behind my back so she would point out every stupid damn line. Just my opinion as a humble DM.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:42 .


#178
Korva

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Naitaka wrote...
And likewise isn't racism, religious opression and poverty also very real in our world?


First, I second what Ladybright said so well, but let me try to put it in my own words as well.

Again: mages and elves and Andrastians and qunari are not real. They are artificial constructions that serve as vessels for (among other things) the explorations of certain prejudice. Women are real. The degredation -- verbal, cultural, sexual or otherwise -- of women in games has immediate and direct equivalents in the real world.

Elves? They have no direct equilvent in the real world. No one here is an elf. "Elf" is not a real-world insult for hated, unwanted or deemed-worthless people based on the hatred of real elves. You can see the elves as a metaphor for all sorts of atrocious things: antisemitism, Apartheid, red, black, brown, yellow or even white victims of colonialization and imperialism. But they remain a metaphor. Their treatment does not directly tell any player that their kind of people are subhuman trash in this setting and that there is no way they can escape that.

Where do you draw the line between what is detached enough as to not appear offensive and what is not when it's largely based on each individual's opinion? Is it then better to restrict entertainment to only what's considered politically correct in accordance to modern value?


I have said where I draw the line and why. And as for "politically correct" ... how many times do the people who call for the "realistic" debasement of women and the "realistic" persecution of homosexuals also think a bit further and call for the kind of realism that would extend to the players/characters who are used to their RL priveleges and securites? Even a straight white human male would be put in his place pretty damn fast in a "proper, realistic, dark, gritty medieval" world unless he was high-ranking nobility in his own land. No more of that ever-popular mouthing-off-to-authority-without-any-consequences. No more striking out to do your own thing without a care for laws, customs, tolls, and obligation to one's liege lord. No more rising from dirt to become the untouchable hero who can do whatever he bloody well wants because he's just so incredibly awesome and the only one who can save the world, so no one can cross him and live. Befouled water, festering wounds, veneral diseases, starvation, frostbite, loss of limbs in combat, brutal punishment, mutilation and execution if you so much as breathe wrong at the wrong person or if the guy in power just wants a random victim.

And no option to reload, of course. Harcore mode is the only mode.

THAT would be realism. And I don't doubt that some would even find it fun. But until that level of realism is implemented, no one can tell me that the desire for women to be treated with roughly the same dignity and respect as men (with some wriggle room both ways) is unrealistic or an imposition of political correctness. :P

Modifié par Korva, 13 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .


#179
Naitaka

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Korva wrote...

...Even a straight white human male would be put in his place pretty damn fast in a "proper, realistic, dark, gritty medieval" world unless he was high-ranking nobility in his own land. No more of that ever-popular mouthing-off-to-authority-without-any-consequences. No more striking out to do your own thing without a care for laws, customs, tolls, and obligation to one's liege lord. No more rising from dirt to become the untouchable hero who can do whatever he bloody well wants because he's just so incredibly awesome and the only one who can save the world, so no one can cross him and live...


Fair enough, though I find that the more my hero/heroine gets treated badly, the more satisfying it is when i put them in their place with my ridiculous awesomeness. Would it be so bad to have a few more Murdock and the option to set their hair on fire at will?

I've got to say though, this discussion is quite enlightening for me. I've always assumed female gamers would be more indifferent about the issue and such topic are normally overplayed by the media. Back when I used to DM for a P&P game me and my friends used to run together, I've written some pretty chauvinistic villians who  die horrible gruesome death at the hands of female players in our group and this kind of discussion never once came up in our sessions.

#180
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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Korva



Developers can create a setting which is fun to play, yet convincing at the same time. "The Witcher" is not that bad as an example. You don't have to go all hardcore to tweak some minor things, like a noble lady putting Juggernaut Armor on herself and going all berzerk near whole life soldier-trained Sten or Alistair.

Or, as another example: there is a make-up in character creation option, but as a woman you could never buy one. I find that if I am a guy, and playing as a girl, and never-ever doubt about what I say and never get a question what and why my character is doing, it's not dignity and respect, it's plain hack-work and lazy writing, I can't believe that as a writer you shoud't at least dig a little in differences in gender psychology and sociology.



I also find some things that you described, like obligations to laws and your lord, and some other medieval-stylish stuff attractive.

Still, I am not that convinced that you are more concerned about "realistic" woman treatment being done on par with every piece of the setting and gameplay which must persuade you that it is necessary, rather that you just think about your own comfort on playing a game and having fun of it cause everyone there are equal like your modern view assume :)



I've always assumed female gamers would be more indifferent about the issue


My experience in that topic is't that huge, but it's an issue yeah. I was greatly enlightened once by a really strong female role player, about how women feel that every rpg story (and not only rpg story) is already made from "male" perspective and how dissapointing it is for them to listen something like "Why is canon Exile from Sith Lords is female? Does't make much sense.." and all.

As for me, I actually like strong female characters, like in Miyazaki movies :3

#181
Naitaka

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What?! I loved the fact the canon Exile was female in KOTOR2. But I'm not a big Star Wars fan so I never bothered to visit the forum much beside looking for restoration mods :P

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:12 .


#182
Celtic Latino

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I'm male but I play both male and female characters in games, and almost always have at least one male and one female playthrough, usually multiple for both genders with males slightly outweighing females.

To me, its not JUST about having a choice of gender, but character creation in general. I like to choose how my character looks and when I'm roleplaying him (or her), I don't see myself in that character, but I literally write that character's story as I play him/her (its a writer thing if that makes sense, I'm basically making my character come alive and telling his/her tale and going by a character concept or two that I like). However, gender does play a role because often times, the experience is totally different as a female character, and to tell the truth, usually it is more fun designing a female character even though I usually feel inclined to play male characters (most of the time). They (females) usually have better options.

These type of choices is what has me a loyal fan of Bioware games AND western rpgs (such as Oblivion, Fallout, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc...), the choice of how you as the player writes the story. Although Hawke can only be human, it makes sense for the story and I'm quite sure the male and female experience is dramatically different, and choice of class is what makes it even better. That and choosing how your character looks, I never used the default Sheploo in ME and I won't be using the default Hawke (man or woman) in Dragon Age 2. I don't want a gazillion choices, but gender, class, and appearance do count as to whether I'm interested in a game or not.

That's the beauty of western rpgs...CHOICES.

#183
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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What?! I loved the fact the canon Exile was female in KOTOR2


It's almost precise quote from KOTOR MMORPG forum.

That guy did't make it out alive.... buahaahah.

#184
Kidd

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DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Still, honestly, if I would write a dialogue which a woman would interact, I still believe I would write it from pure, white blank sheet. Not just changing line here and there. And with a woman behind my back so she would point out every stupid damn line. Just my opinion as a humble DM.

But... why?

#185
Addai

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maxernst wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I dunno either.  Not all my female Wardens would probably feel the same.  The Dalish chick might panic, for instance, whereas I imagined my elf mage had probably fallen for him in Ostagar and was chomping at the bit.  Women are just people.

I


Didn't somebody write a fanfic in which the dalish elf warden thought she was supposed to eat it?

I think that's a little extreme?  I doubt the cultural differences are that big that a man offering a woman a flower wouldn't mean anything to a Dalish woman.  I meant she would panic as in "ack creators, what do I do with this adorable shem."

But, I'm having Dalish preconceptions adjusted over in the Merrill thread, so who really knows.  Image IPB

#186
Addai

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Lord of Creation wrote...
It does strike me as a bit odd when someone says they do not create any characters of the opposite sex for games like Origins, Mass Effect, or Jade Empire as the options concerning NPC attitude towards that character's gender, be it a general dispatition or a matter of romance, are what intrigues me the most.

I find it hard to play a male Shepard because I don't like the VO.

We haven't heard much of Ser Bryant Hawke, but thus far I don't think that will be a hindrance in DA2.  More like that I don't care for the potential female LIs.  Likewise I only played one male PC in Origins and that mostly to see Morrigan's romance story line.  There weren't a lot of differences outside the romance.

#187
Ortaya Alevli

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KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Korva wrote...

I could be wrong, but it seems you're half-looking for a kind of "default reaction" for women, or a default "state of mind"? I just don't think there is one (and you seem to realize that too, so it confuses me a bit that you keep going back to the question). Tendencies, yes, created and reinforced to no small degree by social expectations. But no one "this is what a woman would feel, say and do". You state it yourself that there could be x different reactions. They depend on what the woman in question feels for Alistair (among other things).

I believe what he means is more along the lines of knowing full well there's several reactions, he can also decide what he feels is appropriate for his Warden to feel and all that. But he can't, for instance, feel the butterflies and let them guide him when he's given a flower.

He understands why on a logical plane, and empathical to a degree as well - but he is unable to truly share the feeling and get the most out of the deep connection he imagines a girl can have with her Warden at that time.

Least, that's how I read him ^^;

Pretty much this.

#188
Seewomann

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I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^

Oh, but i do wish FemShep wasnt so... manly...

Modifié par Seewomann, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:33 .


#189
Naitaka

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Seewomann wrote...

I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


Oh? I find romancing Alistair with a femPC to be highly enjoyable. It's like "hmm so chicks dig this eh?" *scribble scribble*

#190
Kidd

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Copy Alistair, get nerd chicks. You don't need to read much on these forums to find evidence of that =)

#191
Seewomann

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Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


Oh? I find romancing Alistair with a femPC to be highly enjoyable. It's like "hmm so chicks dig this eh?" *scribble scribble*



Haha yes Alistair was my LI in DAO, but Im more of a Garrus girl at heart Image IPB

#192
Naitaka

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Seewomann wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


Oh? I find romancing Alistair with a femPC to be highly enjoyable. It's like "hmm so chicks dig this eh?" *scribble scribble*



Haha yes Alistair was my LI in DAO, but Im more of a Garrus girl at heart Image IPB


Ugh, you mean I have to shoot myself in the face with a rocket launcher? :pinched:

#193
JediMB

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Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


Oh? I find romancing Alistair with a femPC to be highly enjoyable. It's like "hmm so chicks dig this eh?" *scribble scribble*


I have to find a way to turn myself into some sort of Alistair/Tenth Doctor hybrid. I'd be irresistable.

#194
Naitaka

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JediMB wrote...

I have to find a way to turn myself into some sort of Alistair/Tenth Doctor hybrid. I'd be irresistable.

I doubt your kamen rider avatar is going to help [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

#195
Seewomann

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Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

I would say compared to all other developers in the gaming world, BioWare does the best job of letting a player put themselves into the game. If you are a girl and you want to make your character to be like you if you were put into a new world, then youd probably want to stay a girl in that world too ha, well at least I know I would. Most games do not appeal to the feminine side of girl gamers, but BioWare does it perfectly.

Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


Oh? I find romancing Alistair with a femPC to be highly enjoyable. It's like "hmm so chicks dig this eh?" *scribble scribble*



Haha yes Alistair was my LI in DAO, but Im more of a Garrus girl at heart Image IPB


Ugh, you mean I have to shoot myself in the face with a rocket launcher? :pinched:



nonononononoooo not "shoot yourself"... more like "get shot by" Image IPB

#196
Naitaka

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Seewomann wrote...
nonononononoooo not "shoot yourself"... more like "get shot by" Image IPB


Why thank you, that's so much more reassuring, I'll get right on top of that.

#197
Seewomann

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Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...
nonononononoooo not "shoot yourself"... more like "get shot by" Image IPB


Why thank you, that's so much more reassuring, I'll get right on top of that.


oh dont forget to bleed blue blood!!! Image IPB

#198
Naitaka

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Seewomann wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...
nonononononoooo not "shoot yourself"... more like "get shot by" Image IPB


Why thank you, that's so much more reassuring, I'll get right on top of that.


oh dont forget to bleed blue blood!!! Image IPB


Image IPB

What do you think of my chances now?

#199
AngelicMachinery

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Seewomann wrote...
Plus, its more fun for a girl gamer to romance MALE npcs rather than female ones ^_^


For the majority of women, nut not all thank you very much.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 14 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .


#200
Seewomann

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Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Seewomann wrote...
nonononononoooo not "shoot yourself"... more like "get shot by" Image IPB


Why thank you, that's so much more reassuring, I'll get right on top of that.


oh dont forget to bleed blue blood!!! Image IPB


Image IPB

What do you think of my chances now?



Blue on the outside....