29 réponses à ce sujet

[Urdjur]

Background
I played SoA back in the day and completed the main quest and most side quests with a "SIPS" (Solo Insane Poverty Sorceror) my second time around. I never got around to ToB then, and forgot about the game after switching to Mac. Well, I just found out that BGII was available for Mac, so I decided to resurrect ye olde gaming skillz and have a go at ToB.

I'm unimpressed. I created a from-scratch ToB Sorceror for another SIPS experience, and handily slaughtered the opposition without much difficulty. I've never looked into mods before, but now I really feel the need to make the experience enjoyable. I approach the boards for help in selecting a good set of mods, and pre-empting any problems that may arise with an OSX installation (I'm a Mac noob).

(spoilers ahead)

Suggested Mods
So far, I have only SoA+ToB installed, plus the 2.1.2 patch for ToB for Mac installed. I was thinking...

BG2 Fixpack: I spent an hour yesterday pouring through all the core fixes (G3 version) and I'm in awe. I assumed this would heavily modify my spell selection, but found out that they hadn't changed any significant no-MR no-save effects or anything like that. What's not to like? I mainly want help selecting the appropriate fix pack for the mods I want to install.

ToB "semi-official" mod: The one restoring Demigorgon and the 5 to their intended glory. Seems like a no-brainer.

ToB Ascension: Doesn't seem to increase the difficulty in ToB much, but a meatier ending is welcome nevertheless.

Difficulty increasing mods: I hear IA is supposed to be the most difficult, but I don't want something that drastically changes quests or the way the game plays. A review seemed to imply IA did this, and that it was hard to install/buggy and incompatible with the G3 Fixpack. So I'm considering the Tactics mod instead. I've read a bit in-depth about the "smart liches and mages" part and that's partly what I'm looking for. I have no idea about how SCS compares to this or what it does. Your recommendations are appreciated.

Spell changing mods: Obviously, some spells are broken, which is why a SIPS build is possible at all. I looked at Spell Revisions, but SR doesn't seem to actually nerf any of the problem spells. All clone type spells are still broken (Mislead, PI, Sim), infinite spells are still available, and invisibility/spell immunity cheese still works like a charm. I won't bother with a spell mod unless it actually balances the game and makes it more challenging, rather than simply a bit different. Any suggestions?

Anything else to consider? I do intend to make a full run once all the mods are installed, from Irenicus dungeon to ToB completion. And to make it a no-reload challenge too, in addition to SIPS, to make it more interesting. I intend to use any spell cheese still available after mods, just so you know. My only self-nerf will be the "no items" part. Thanks for your help!

[Flamedance]

I'd avoid IA, if i were you. Besides, IA is impossible to solo with a sorceror. In fact, the latest version is impossible to solo with any class.



SCS2 is by far the most popular difficulty enhancing mod out there, and for good reason. SCS is compatible with quite a few Tactics components, so you can add those if you like.



Both Ascension and Tactics are considered "cheesy' by some on this board. Fact is that of the difficulty enhancing mods, only SCS plays fair in that it does not allow the computer to do all sorts of illegal things (illegal contingencies, forced spellcasting, etc). Well, not a lot, anyway:P

If that does not bother you, i recommend Ascension, SCS and some SCS-compatible Tactics components.

[polytope]

Urdjur wrote...

Difficulty increasing mods: I hear IA is supposed to be the most difficult, but I don't want something that drastically changes quests or the way the game plays. A review seemed to imply IA did this, and that it was hard to install/buggy and incompatible with the G3 Fixpack. So I'm considering the Tactics mod instead. I've read a bit in-depth about the "smart liches and mages" part and that's partly what I'm looking for. I have no idea about how SCS compares to this or what it does. Your recommendations are appreciated.

I've tried both SCS and Tactics and I find SCS mage AI to be smarter and more challenging.

Urdjur wrote...Spell changing mods: Obviously, some spells are broken, which is why a SIPS build is possible at all. I looked at Spell Revisions, but SR doesn't seem to actually nerf any of the problem spells. All clone type spells are still broken (Mislead, PI, Sim), infinite spells are still available, and invisibility/spell immunity cheese still works like a charm. I won't bother with a spell mod unless it actually balances the game and makes it more challenging, rather than simply a bit different.

SCS does nicely nerf the combination of II/S:Immunity divination by giving spell thrust etc. area of effect (allowing both enemy and party mages to remove spell immunity from invisible mages).

I don't believe any mod has fixed project image to work as per pnp (i.e. spells cast through the image should come out of the casters spellbook) - so infinite spells still possible. If you find PI overpowered I would just avoid using it... Or play as a necromancer and never get illusion spells (though that would make a poverty run impossible, as a necromancer needs scrolls).

Ultimately it's up to the player to police themself with respect to overpowered tactics. There are almost unlimited exploits in Infinity Engine games, it's the players' choice to use them or ignore them.

[Urdjur]

Flamedance wrote...
I'd avoid IA, if i were you. Besides, IA
is impossible to solo with a sorceror. In fact, the latest version is
impossible to solo with any class.

Now that you put it that way, I feel compelled to prove you wrong But seriously, SCS seems more like what I'm looking for - I'll go read up.

polytope wrote...
SCS does nicely nerf the combination of II/S:Immunity divination by giving spell thrust etc. area of effect (allowing both enemy and party mages to remove spell immunity from invisible mages).

Well that's certainly a step in the right direction, but I fear it will only make me more powerful. You see, even AoE spells need "targeting" of sorts, at least by standard enemy mage AI. This makes AI more problematic when soloing, because normally there will be at least one party member who will succumb to the initial scripted "True Sight upon invisibility", meaning AoEs then have a "point in space of interest" to converge at - the II/SI wizard will then usually get hit by the splash as well. When you're going solo, they can't just select a random point on the ground in your vicinity, and just sit there casting True Sight after True Sight to no effect. Most of the time, not even protective triggers or Time stop etc. trigger then, unless scripted to activate on something else than enemy sighted (like activating a tomb etc.)

Chain Contingency on sight would be a legal way to script the AI to cast spell protection removal in my general direction in that case , but I think it will be quite easy to fool such a generic script with going in with a Mord Sword first or something. And the fact that simply doubling up on Spell Immunity vs. Abjuration too should solve it, just as it solves the Dispel/Remove Magic alternative (unless they're using RRoR instead - so best to throw in SI:Alteration there too). And the fact that my spell protections still won't be removed, but rather those of my mislead, projected image. Still, more clever AI and spells are welcome.

[Carinna]

Sorry, I know this isn't what you were asking for, but I can't stop myself:



If

a. You are exploiting every instance of cheese in the game, and

b. You find the game so ridiculously easy that it's not fun, then



Why don't you simply stop with the cheese?



Sorry if I misunderstood; it seemed the use of cheese in spellcasting (especially multiple-image spellcasting) was something you couldn't do without...

[suttree]

BG2 Fixpack: 
You are correct that this is incompatible with IA. 

ToB "semi-official" mod:
ToB Ascension:
The "Tougher" battles with the Five and Demogorgon are bundled in (Weidu) Ascension.  Note that the "meatier" ending in Ascension is much much more difficult than any battle you've fought in vanilla.   Solo Ascension on Insane - 'nuff said - do a google search for spoilers

Difficulty increasing mods:


IA - does drastically change the way the game plays.   You can read saros' posts in the no reload thread for an account of the latest version .   You can't solo because the mod will insta-kill you if you try (?!)

SCS - improving the AI makes a significant difference in game difficulty - I'd suggest this is the mod you're looking for (esp. with all tactical challenge components installed and mage/cleric prebuffing).   

The added AOE for antimagic is included in SCS (no need for SR), though I still highly recommend SR.

Your analysis of AOE antimagic may be correct with vanilla AI,  but you should find SCS AI very different.  Note that SI doesn't (and never did) defend against anti-magic (Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Ruby Ray etc.)
 
Note that the fixpack corrects 3xPI spam, Mislead is nerfed by SR, and SR additionaly nerfs PI/Simulacrum by preventing the infinite scroll exploit (copies have no access to quick slots) - not relevant to a SIPS game I guess.

BTW: I've yet to read of a solo insane no-reload Ascension sorceror in SR/SCS.  Please be sure to share an account of your tactics if you proceed. 

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Urdjur wrote...
Now that you put it that way, I feel compelled to prove you wrong But seriously, SCS seems more like what I'm looking for - I'll go read up.

I didn't try it myself (the concept of IA doesn't lure me), but from what I've heard it's not that the battles are so difficult in general, it's that as soon as the engine realizes that you're solo or a FM PC (of any sort, Kensage, FM multi or whatever), additional cheats will be employed by the enemy, for example unstoppable and complete debuffing.

Also, what Carinna said. Why would you ask for a better chess opponent if you just end up punching them in the face anyway until they surrender?
Possible self- limitations:
1) No duplications of your protagonist
2) Only one Spell Immunity at a time
3) No Wishresting or infinite Spell-Looping (impossible without duplications or NPCs) in the middle of combat (or at all)
4) No closing of doors between you and the enemy
...

[Urdjur]

Carinna wrote...

Sorry, I know this isn't what you were asking for, but I can't stop myself:

If
a. You are exploiting every instance of cheese in the game, and
b. You find the game so ridiculously easy that it's not fun, then

Why don't you simply stop with the cheese?

Sorry if I misunderstood; it seemed the use of cheese in spellcasting (especially multiple-image spellcasting) was something you couldn't do without...

That's mostly a question of aesthetics. Here's a simile: You're playing chess against a small child and obviously not finding the game very challenging. How to solve this problem - do you:
a) Choose to start with no Queen to make the game more balanced; or
Simply play less well by making poor choices and not using your mind to its fullest potential?

IMO, you're suggesting that I simply select rather than find a mod that accomplishes a). To me, there's even less enjoyment to alternative than simply crushing the "kid" (or vanilla BGII if you will), Queen and all, in the first place.

It's not that I can't do without any "cheese" as you put it (and what is "cheese" really? Even casting Invisibility on a rabbit familiar and scouting ahead for traps could be seen as cheesy by someone - or simply tactical). Mind you, I played through SoA with a paladin first time around and my first SIPS several years ago didn't even bother with the lvl 6-8 clone spells. I'm just looking for an optimal spell selection, and a challenge that will require that effort.

I found this to be an inspiring thread:
http://forums.biowar...722586&forum=18

It seems SCS-II makes the game quite challenging for a solo sorceror, and spell selection non-trivial, even when you play at a fairly high level early in the game. I intend to run the same setup:

ToB + official patch + G3 fixpack + SCS-II

Do you also recommend any of the ToB enhancements at the bottom of the site below, or are they more or less covered already by SCS-II (which also improves on the 5, for instance)?
http://www.sorcerers...ted_bioware.php

[Carinna]

Urdjur wrote...
That's mostly a question of aesthetics. Here's a simile: You're playing chess against a small child and obviously not finding the game very challenging. How to solve this problem - do you:
a) Choose to start with no Queen to make the game more balanced; or
Simply play less well by making poor choices and not using your mind to its fullest potential?

IMO, you're suggesting that I simply select rather than find a mod that accomplishes a). To me, there's even less enjoyment to alternative than simply crushing the "kid" (or vanilla BGII if you will), Queen and all, in the first place.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't find the concept of self-limitation synonymous with acting dumb.  For me, it's more a matter of self-control.  In your example, it would be akin to leaving the queen on the board and simply not using her.

And I don't play chess.  Something to do with having a chessmaster ex who solved the problem you described by just crushing me.

Modifié par Carinna, 12 janvier 2011 - 04:01 .

[suttree]

ToB + official patch + G3 fixpack + SCS-II

Do you also recommend any of the ToB enhancements at the bottom of the site below, or are they more or less covered already by SCS-II (which also improves on the 5, for instance)?

Again, I very much recommend  Ascension (before fixpack in the install order, all components) - fully compatible with SCS. 

Modifié par suttree, 12 janvier 2011 - 04:16 .

[Urdjur]

Carinna wrote...
I guess the difference between us is that I don't find the concept of self-limitation synonymous with acting dumb.  For me, it's more a matter of self-control.  In your example, it would be akin to leaving the queen on the board and simply not using her.

And I don't play chess.  Something to do with having a chessmaster ex who solved the problem you described by just crushing me.

Chessmasters can be like that, I suppose.

Well, I do "leave the queen" to some extent by playing a poverty game. But when it comes to spell selection, I'd rather have hard programmed limits to push against. It's hard to get a sense of accomplishment from pushing something to the limit if you have to make some arbitrary limit yourself...

Note that the fixpack corrects 3xPI spam

Ah, good! That should make Spell Trap recharging mid combat impossible, and Wish resting mid combat decidedly less dependable. I'd rather not bother with either, though I'll probably recharge myself between fights.

Mislead is nerfed by SR, and SR additionaly nerfs PI/Simulacrum by
preventing the infinite scroll exploit (copies have no access to quick
slots) - not relevant to a SIPS game I guess.

My thoughts exactly. The "nerf" from SR is already superceeded by my vow of poverty And the Mislead nerf is largely irrelevant to my playstyle. I mostly use it for my PI clone, and then the casting time is the real perk compared to Improved Invisibility. Even after the decoy dies, I've found that enemies continue to ignore the mislead caster (or PI in this case) as long as there's another, visible target. So the PI just has to summon a Mord Sword or other meat shield while the decoy lasts, and then go about his business. I have no idea how SCS etc. will affect this though.

Anyway, a good PI fix would be to let the original caster lose as many spells as the PI used. Or spawn it with a radically limited spell choice, such as 1 spell each of levels 1-6 (slightly more powerful than the Limited Wish recover spells option).

though I still highly recommend SR

I can see some of the appeal, but please elaborate. On a cursory glance, I enjoyed the energy protection streamlining, though some of the other modifications seemed strange. For example, IIRC, Lvl 1 Grease was blessed with a no-save slow effect, but Lvl 4 Teleport Field got both a yes-save and a yes-MR nerf. The changes to Knock was downright bizarre, but I suppose it still opens doors despite its new found combat use? I usually take it even as a SIPS to complete various side quests etc.

I could see myself getting talked into using SR if it:
a) Provides somewhat better balance, if not by much and
Doesn't reduce the tactical advantage to enemy AI from SCS by providing "strange" spell variants, or interfere in other ways. In which order should I install the mods?

BTW: I've yet to read of a solo insane no-reload Ascension sorceror in
SR/SCS.  Please be sure to share an account of your tactics if you
proceed. 

You bet, but expect this to be a long term project. That is, whenever I feel like/have time for computer gaming, I'll probably go to work on this, but it may take a while. Btw, is there a 2011 no-reload thread yet? I'm new to the boards, and only glanced over the 2010 thread when considering spell selection etc. If not, I'll just continue in this thread once the game gets going.

Possible self- limitations:
1) No duplications of your protagonist
2) Only one Spell Immunity at a time
3) No Wishresting or infinite Spell-Looping (impossible without duplications or NPCs) in the middle of combat (or at all)
4) No closing of doors between you and the enemy

1) This is problematic from a solo perspective, because in no-rest areas, I'll simply not have enough firepower to bring the opposition down. I suppose a work around would be to summon a suitable spell caster and have it recharge me through Spell Trap between battles (see point 3). The pseudo-invulnerability from not having the protagonist in the room where the combat takes place is more or less gravy. And a nice insurance to make up for the self-imposed no-reload restriction IMO.

2) Seems like a pretty pointless restriction if enemy AI is scripted right and spell protection removal ignores Spell Immunity anyway.

3) Seems like the fixpack already makes it highly unreliable to attempt this mid combat. I also doubt that recharging between battles will really be needed if I use Project Image. As long as there aren't more battles between rest opportunities than I have level 7 spell slots, I should be fine. But some way of extending your "juice" as a solo sorceror (beyond mere resting) will probably be needed (see point 1). After all, you're trying to do the work of six men all by yourself.

4) Blah, I never do this. Exploiting bugs like this is not enjoyable to me. Btw, I hear some of these new tactic scripts lets liches etc. follow you with Dimension Doors etc. - very appropriate!

Again, I very much recommend  Ascension (before fixpack in the install order, all components) - fully compatible with SCS. 

OK, I'll give it a go as well. What about Spell Revisions? How compatible/useful and when in the install order?

Modifié par Urdjur, 12 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[silenceall]

Urdjur wrote...
That's mostly a question of aesthetics. Here's a simile: You're playing chess against a small child and obviously not finding the game very challenging. How to solve this problem - do you:
a) Choose to start with no Queen to make the game more balanced; or
Simply play less well by making poor choices and not using your mind to its fullest potential?

IMO, you're suggesting that I simply select rather than find a mod that accomplishes a). To me, there's even less enjoyment to alternative than simply crushing the "kid" (or vanilla BGII if you will), Queen and all, in the first place.

Interesting, but I recently had this very dilemma in RL playing against my son.  I solved the "problem" by limiting myself to 5 seconds to make a move after he completed a move.  It worked out rather nicely for us, although I gotta say it's difficult trying to take chess seriously when you are playing with Mario and Luigi as your king and queen against DK and DK, Jr. as his king and queen, etc.

[suttree]

Urdjur wrote...

though I still highly recommend SR

I can see some of the appeal, but please elaborate. On a cursory glance, I enjoyed the energy protection streamlining, though some of the other modifications seemed strange. For example, IIRC, Lvl 1 Grease was blessed with a no-save slow effect, but Lvl 4 Teleport Field got both a yes-save and a yes-MR nerf. The changes to Knock was downright bizarre, but I suppose it still opens doors despite its new found combat use? I usually take it even as a SIPS to complete various side quests etc.

I could see myself getting talked into using SR if it:
a) Provides somewhat better balance, if not by much and
Doesn't reduce the tactical advantage to enemy AI from SCS by providing "strange" spell variants, or interfere in other ways. In which order should I install the mods?

SR certainly meets your two criteria (SR plays very well with SCS), but it does add complexity to your mod setup.

See SR as a "polished" version of the original spell system - you may not agree with all the changes, but it aspires to play better *as a whole* than the original.  By "better" I mean that the mod (1) allows a greater variety in tactics for spell casters (useless spells become useful ) (2) improves role/game play by making spells more "fun".  The improved/standardized spell descriptions are also nice.   Note that you can comment out a revised spell before install if it doesn't appeal.

You are playing a very specialized game (solo, no divine magic, sharp tactical focus) so SR may not be your cup of tea.  SR is a great mod (hence my recommendation) but that doesn't mean it will suit your particular play style.  It certainly will require a little more research - example: deciding which spell tweaks to use - SR vs. SCS. 

If you're looking for a challenge, I suspect SR will be more difficult (as compared to vanilla) to solo with a sorceror.

SR is installed before SCS in the install order.  Be sure to add the hotfixes to SR before installing.  Ascension + Fixpack + SR + SCS is a very stable install for me.

Re:  Grease - indeed, this spell is much more powerful than vanilla. I'm a fan of this shift - grease is now useful  (without dominating lvl 1) all through the game.

Re:   Teleport Field - this change can have a *major* effect on solo sorceror strategy.  I'm not a fan of this shift - Teleport Field seems too weak for its level.   Perhaps a reason to decline SR (or block this change) if you plan on building a strategy around layered telefields.

Re: Knock - a great change.  Take it to open locks and for additional tactical options.

.... but expect this to be a long term project.

Wouldn't imagine otherwise - will you restart if your character dies?

Possible self- limitations:
2) Only one Spell Immunity at a time
...
2) Seems like a pretty pointless restriction if enemy AI is scripted
right and spell protection removal ignores Spell Immunity anyway.

Being able to run both SI:Div (protecting II) and SI:Abj (Dispel/Remove Magic) is a great advantage - less so with a solo (high level) sorceror.  Since you're playing SCS,  enemy mages will certainly use this strategy.

Modifié par suttree, 12 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[Urdjur]

See SR as a "polished" version of the original spell system - you
may not agree with all the changes, but it aspires to play better *as a
whole* than the original. [...] The
improved/standardized spell descriptions are also nice. 

This would be the main reason for the SR install IMO. I've read up a bit on the specifics and I must say that I'm impressed, overall. The Polymorph tweaks seem balanced and appropriate - it always irritated me that I could navigate my Web spell as a mustard jelly, but not as a spider! Anyway, polished is better than unpolished. And the fact that you have up to date spell descriptions that are accurate on saves and MR etc. is extremely helpful when planning out your spell selection in advance.

Note that you
can comment out a revised spell before install if it doesn't appeal. [...] Perhaps a reason to decline SR (or block this change) if you plan on building a strategy around layered telefields.

This is a gray area for me that I would feel uncomfy with. Once I start cherry picking which spell version I want from which mod/vanilla version, I kind of lose track of the "increase difficulty" part.

Teleport Field isn't a major loss to the spell repertoire when soloing IMO. I'd rather lose a lvl 4 option and gain a better level 1 option, since there are so many "must haves" in level 4 already. So far, the most significant nerf I've seen is Melf's Minute Meteors no longer hitting as a +5 weapon (+2 instead). This will cause problems with some monsters. Perhaps relying on Planetars will suffice. Plus I get those energy blades later so yeah, no matter.

Wouldn't imagine otherwise - will you restart if your character dies?

Probably. I'll also do some quick test games in Irenicus' dungeon and beginning of ToB to test out the new AI and spell selection before I start "for real". Btw, I checked out the 25th no reload thread and it was many pages and quite cluttered. Is there any veto on detailing your exploits in a separate thread such as this one?

Be sure to add the hotfixes to SR before installing.

Oh boy... This is where I know it's going to be most complicated, actually getting the mods to work properly. I shall make haste to these forums if /when I need help! I'll probably try to start my run by the weekend, if possible. First priority is to reconsider the spell selection in the light of SR and SCS...

If I understand how this mod business works, the SCS tweaks will overwrite the SR tweaks in those few cases where it applies? For example, at level 20, Skull Trap will do 12d6 damage rather than 20d4 damage if I install like so:

Patch + Ascension + Fix pack + SR + SCS ?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Urdjur wrote...
If I understand how this mod business works, the SCS tweaks will overwrite the SR tweaks in those few cases where it applies? For example, at level 20, Skull Trap will do 12d6 damage rather than 20d4 damage if I install like so:

Patch + Ascension + Fix pack + SR + SCS ?

Only if you install that component.
Just to be on the safe side, you should choose which one you want to install (and leave out the other), because it's possible (and highly unlikely) that SR + SCS2 Skull Trap means a cap of 12D4. Have somebody else comment on this.

Urdjur wrote...
That's mostly a question of aesthetics. Here's a simile: You're playing chess against a small child and obviously not finding the game very challenging. How to solve this problem - do you:
a) Choose to start with no Queen to make the game more balanced; or
Simply play less well by making poor choices and not using your mind to its fullest potential?

IMO, you're suggesting that I simply select rather than find a mod that accomplishes a). To me, there's even less enjoyment to alternative than simply crushing the "kid" (or vanilla BGII if you will), Queen and all, in the first place.

How nice of you to stick to my simile.
How is limiting yourself with new rules b rather than a?
Cheese is called cheese for a reason. It's a cheap way to play. Whether you have more resources than you should, or getting limitless XP for no real reason, or having the enemy act suicidal, it feels wrong somehow. (or feels as though it should feel wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it)
Forgive me if my examples of limiting yourself didn't reflect your strategies, but in the end, limiting yourself to legal means doesn't dumb you down - it makes the game more difficult and therefore requires you to think. To come back to your simile, employing cheese against an AI is not unlike putting your Queen back to her starting position on the board whenever your brother manages to capture her. Neither of them can do anything against it, and they'll both be completely helpless, even with the best scripting (in case of the AI). (and yes, that means that even with SCS2 there are still ways to exploit the engine in fabulous ways)

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 12 janvier 2011 - 10:33 .

[Flamedance]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Urdjur wrote...
Now that you put it that way, I feel compelled to prove you wrong But seriously, SCS seems more like what I'm looking for - I'll go read up.

I didn't try it myself (the concept of IA doesn't lure me), but from what I've heard it's not that the battles are so difficult in general, it's that as soon as the engine realizes that you're solo or a FM PC (of any sort, Kensage, FM multi or whatever), additional cheats will be employed by the enemy, for example unstoppable and complete debuff
...

Amongst other things. Saros proved v. 5 could be solod by certain classes (f/m multi iirc, using every exploit available). Soloing IA with a sorceror wasn't possible in IA5, since you rely on a high, consistent physical damage output to kill most opponents. As of v.6 it's no longer possible to solo for any class. Saros tried and failed. Don't waste your time trying to prove you can:)

[Urdjur]

Cheese is called cheese for a reason. It's a cheap way to play. Whether
you have more resources than you should, or getting limitless XP for no
real reason, or having the enemy act suicidal, it feels wrong somehow.
(or feels as though it should feel wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it)

Well, look at it this way then. Either you can vow not to use the cheese if it makes it too simple. Or you can increase the difficulty through other ways so that use of the cheese not only becomes balanced but necessary if you are to complete the game as you intended. I prefer the latter option, but to each his own!

@Flamedance: Thanks for the extra input on IA - don't worry, I won't be trying it. It sounds like it's more suitable if you do a full party/items run instead.

If anyone has input, please chime in to this:

EDIT: Nevermind, I just found this link explaining how it works. SCS even adapts to SR if installed already:
http://forums.gibber...showtopic=15059

Just to be on the safe side, you should choose which one you want to
install (and leave out the other), because it's possible (and highly
unlikely) that SR + SCS2 Skull Trap means a cap of 12D4. Have somebody
else comment on this.

I'd prefer if I could just install SR + SCS and not bother with commenting stuff out, but want to confirm how this will work. The arcane spells where SR and SCS overlap explicitly are:

Spellstrike: SR specifies 10f r, but SCS also mods in other ways. Will this revert Spellstrike to single target as in vanilla?
Skulltrap: Damage cap 20d4 (SR) or 12d6 (SCS) (irrelevant difference, but bad if both are applied)
PW Blind: Both make it single target so it shouldn't matter what happens when you install
MMM: Both make it a +2 weapon
Mantle and Improved Mantle: Both are changed (irrelevant spell picks anyway)

If someone with SR and SCS installed could just check what the in game spell description says about either of these, it would probably reveal how the mod layering works. Much obliged! Also, for you SR afficionados out there, I have some questions regarding...

SPELL SELECTION
Summons: I rely a lot on summons. Before SR, my picks where Spider Spawn, Animate Dead, Mordenkainen's Sword and Summon Planetar. In SR, Spider Spawn doesn't really stand out that much compared to the beefed up MSI-III spells, and Animate Dead is relegated to an undead version of the monster summoning spells (i.e. no skeleton warriors with über duration). OTOH, Invisible Stalker is souped up and the only long duration summon in the game. So I'm now thinking about Invisible Stalker, Mordenkainen's Sword and Summon Planetar as primary summons. Would you agree? As for low level options, see below.

Level III Offensive Spells: There are many, and with SR they all seem very balanced. I must take Melf's Minute Meteors, and would only like to take one more offensive spell at this level to leave room for defense and utility. My thoughts:
*Fireball: Still the benchmark and still bad, even though the margin is less with SR. Since I plan to get Sunfire and Dragon's Breath, there's little point to this one.
*Flame Arrow: Now has a save and spreads out the damage instead of focusing it on an opponent. Kind of like a weak, party friendly Fireball. Seems uninteresting for a solo sorceror.
*Vampiric Touch: Previously a must have for a solo sorceror, but it's now nerfed while Larloch's Minor Drain is beefed up. So I'd rather take LMD or ignore both and rely on Bhaalspawn powers instead for healing until I get Summon 25th Level Cleric (a.k.a. Summon Planetar).
*Lightning Bolt: This now fills the role that Flame Arrow used to have. Good damage potential for a single target spell and in an interesting damage type that I won't otherwise be picking up. Merits consideration.
*Skull Trap: Nerfed damage potential, but still presents interesting tactical options. I won't be picking up DBF, but I will take either Cloudkill or Acid Fog, so setting preemptive damage sources before enemies appear etc. will still be possible even if I don't take this. I'll also take ADHW when I get level 8 spells, which overlaps a bit with this. Still merits consideration.
*Summon Monster I: The first available summoning effect is actually quite good with SR. The damage output from 3 hobgoblin archers over 3 turns is probably greater than Skull Trap's potential at level 7, and even when they are no longer useful, you still get a shaman who essentially converts your level 3 spell slot to some useful low level cleric spells. Sounds good to me, especially since I tend to rely a lot on summons in a solo game. But is it worth giving up Skull Trap? Merits consideration.

I also have a few specific questions on how certain spells behave in SR/SCS:
*Glitterdust: How useful is this for handling invisble mages before you get Oracle/True Sight? Will you actually be able to target them with something?
*Know Opponent: Apart from the debuff, does this spell actually provide information? For example, if you target a Skeleton Warrior with it, will the combat dialogue state something like "Skeleton Warrior: Magic Resistance 90%, Skeleton Warrior: Immune to chaos, sleep... blah blah"? That could prove quite useful. If it's only a matter of debuffing, I think I'll pass.
*Vocalize: How important is this in an SCS game? I assume I will be hard to nail with a silence effect anyway.
*Dimension Door: This seems like an absolutely fantastic defensive spell, especially in a solo no-reload scenario. Perhaps a higher priority to get than stoneskin even. How does this work exactly?
*Polymorph Self: Does this spell still shut off spell casting? The SR description doesn't say it does (nor that it doesn't).
*Otiluke's Resilient Sphere: Does this protect against anything or just damage? For example, does it include single target effects like PW kill or area debuffs like Web? Does it protect against traps? Can you manipulate external objects like switches and containers?
*Contingency and Chain Contingency: Can you still use these when the game is paused, mid combat?

Thanks for your input!

EDIT 2: I'm a bit slow here with all this mod business, but I just found out what Tutu does. So nowadays you could actually play BG-I as a sorceror? Interesting... I'm warming up to the idea of testing the suggested challenge in the complete trilogy But since my experience with BG-I extends to a few sessions at my friend's comp some 10 years ago, I think I will need to practice a bit first Also, a level 1 solo sorceror without items will need some clever way to take out groups of 6 enemies. Are barehand attacks possible? Otherwise, a combative familiar should work well

Modifié par Urdjur, 13 janvier 2011 - 02:26 .

[suttree]

If anyone has input, please chime in to this:
EDIT: Nevermind, I just found this link explaining how it works. SCS even adapts to SR if installed already:
http://forums.gibber...showtopic=15059

Yes, no need to comment out.  The only SR/SCS conlfict where I overwrite SR is "More consistent Breach" - SCS hits Liches/Rakshasa, SR doesn't.

SPELL SELECTION

I'm afraid I can't comment much here - I certainly have opinions, but I play with a party in BG2 and I imagine your spell selection needs to be geared 'specially for your playstyle.

Summons:

Web Spam + Spider Spawn is a useful combo if you're taking web.
Others have commented on the absence of skeletons (Necromancers w/ no skels?) at G3, likely to return in v4, perhaps at a different spell level (90%MR is powerful).  Undead are slightly weaker in SCS since they can be turned.
Wyvern is a medium duration summon that can work well (again with web)

I just noticed that the recent changes to fiend summoning haven't made it to the spell descriptions online.   Correct descriptions ingame, but the hotfix thread has details.  Not likely to be useful though.

So I'm now thinking about Invisible Stalker, Mordenkainen's Sword and Summon Planetar as primary summons. Would you agree?

Seems fine (stalker: long duration, sword: resistances, planetar: umm, planetar) weaknesses will be low HP on Stalker and short duration on Sword.

Level III Offensive Spells: There are many, and with SR they all seem very balanced. I must take Melf's Minute Meteors, and would only like to take one more offensive spell at this level to leave room for defense and utility.

My choices
LEVEL 3
Spell Thrust - required in SCS
Remove Magic - required
MMM - mage suppressant (combo w/ True Strike)
Skull Trap - magic damage, trap sneakiness (cheese if necessary)
free choice - depends on style - more damage, defence, or buff?

I also have a few specific questions on how certain spells behave in SR/SCS:

*Glitterdust: How useful is this for handling invisble mages before you get Oracle/True Sight? Will you actually be able to target them with something?
With prebuffing, not very useful -  Mages will be running some sort of Globe.   I take it in party game to deal with thieves and invisible creatures (very effective).
*Know Opponent: Apart from the debuff, does this spell actually provide information?
No.  Great spell in certain battles, though (cast by cleric or by scrolls)
*Vocalize: How important is this in an SCS game? I assume I will be hard to nail with a silence effect anyway.
Good question - I get this from items/scrolls, but I can't remember the last time I used it. 
*Dimension Door:  How does this work exactly?
You teleport - cast, click, you're there. Awesome.
*Polymorph Self: Does this spell still shut off spell casting?
Yes.
*Otiluke's Resilient Sphere: Does this protect against anything or just damage? For example, does it include single target effects like PW kill or area debuffs like Web? Does it protect against traps? Can you manipulate external objects like switches and containers?
You are completely paralyzed (character unselectable) but immune to everything.
*Contingency and Chain Contingency: Can you still use these when the game is paused, mid combat?
No.

EDIT 2: I'm a bit slow here with all this mod business, but I just found out what Tutu does. So nowadays you could actually play BG-I as a sorcerer? Interesting... I'm warming up to the idea of testing the suggested challenge in the complete trilogy

Also Baldur's Gate Trilogy (BGT)
Also this might be of interest (solo Ascension sorcerer)

Modifié par suttree, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:10 .

[Urdjur]

suttree wrote...
Spell Thrust - required in SCS

Why? To bypass MGoI? I intend to kill low level mages with MMM and summons. Or even Sunfire - the level difference will likely be vast due to soloing and possibly importing from TuTu (I intend to limit myself to the original TotSC cap in that case though, which still means lvl 9 chez Irenicus). The Web/Grease Matrix is mainly a means to control warrior types.

Remove Magic - required

I had considered taking this as my last lvl 3 pick at level 22, when the level difference is more likely to be significant, to take down mid-level mages (and friends) with greater ease. It seems optimal to me.

Beyond those already mentioned, I have also considered:
*Haste: For quick escapes and buffing summons - I'll probably reconsider now that Dim Door is available (and sluggish Skeleton Warriors aren't).
*Protection from Missiles: Better survivability before Protection from Magic Weapons becomes available - plus I hear SCS won't always use magic weapons at high levels.

*Dimension Door:  How does this work exactly?
You teleport - cast, click, you're there. Awesome.

But, but... the implications are enourmous! I suppose only explored areas are available for clicking so I can't cheat my way through "quest-locked" doors etc? Is there a range limit?

Also this might be of interest (solo Ascension sorcerer)

Ah, that will make a fine read with the morning coffee tomorrow, I must be off to bed now. Thanks for the help!

[suttree]

Urdjur wrote...

suttree wrote...
Spell Thrust - required in SCS

Why? To bypass MGoI? I intend to kill low level mages with MMM and summons. Or even Sunfire - the level difference will likely be vast due to soloing and possibly importing from TuTu (I intend to limit myself to the original TotSC cap in that case though, which still means lvl 9 chez Irenicus). The Web/Grease Matrix is mainly a means to control warrior types.

To bring down MGoI at low levels and SI:Div quickly/efficiently at mid/high levels.   Mages not vulnerable to remove magic will need some debuffing before vulnerable to MMM/melee.
<edit>Note my solo inexperience, perhaps you can wait out some protections.

Dimension Door

To be honest, I've never pushed the limits of this spell.  I know I can travel anywhere I can see - great for ambushes and managing ambushes and dodging incoming missiles/spells.   I haven't used it for exploring or jumping past closed doors.   Perhaps unbalanced for solo play (hit run rest).  Granted, enemies can chase you down (fiends).  And if you leave mages alone, they will summon fiends like no tomorrow.

<edit>More reading material - SCS sorcerer spell list on pg 3
<edit>SR DD should restrict you to LOS and cause any spells cast at you to fail.  I seem to have old Dimension Door (transport anywhere, spells follow) on my current install so I can't test this. 

Modifié par suttree, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:16 .

[Urdjur]

suttree wrote...
To bring down MGoI at low levels and SI:Div quickly/efficiently at mid/high levels.   Mages not vulnerable to remove magic will need some debuffing before vulnerable to MMM/melee.

Quite. Remove Magic + Spell Thrust seems like quite an efficient package. Especially if complemented by Breach and Ruby Ray of Reversal at higher levels. Just so I understand correctly:
*When installing SCS-II over SR, SCS-II normally doesn't include its "More Consistent Breach" package, since SR has another solution to liches/rakshasas in its modified Pierce Shield?
*However, you edit this option out to conserve the SCS-II mod which makes Breach work against everything except the turning suite of spell protections?

Three more questions:
*Do you know if Remove/Dispel Magic is also capped at level 20 as it is in PnP, or if level differences are counted beyond that?
*Do you know if PIs inherit spell triggers/sequencers you have set? In that case, I need not worry about the casting time when choosing certain spells.
*The PI according to SR turns the caster invisible to prevent recharging through spell trap, which is also kinda useful for protection. But what happens if an enemy uses SR Oracle/True Sight in the vicinity of both the Original Caster and the PI? If the PI has warded itself with SI: Divination, will that prevent the invisibility on the OC from disappearing too?

Btw, thanks for the reading material - it was educative, though some of it seems out of date when compared to more recent versions of SR/SCS. Also, somthing I forgot in a previous posts:

Also Baldur's Gate Trilogy (BGT)

I understand that the weidu version of BGT is now as stable on Mac as the weidu TuTu, including mod compatibility? If so, I don't see why I shouldn't choose BGT instead - the bridges are probably interesting and will add to the experience. My basic problem remains however: Inability to procure Baldur's Gate 1 for Mac anywhere. Good Old Games recently made BG1 available online for like 9 bucks, but unfortunately it's the PC version. It's impossible to find second hand in Swedish stores (I doubt the Mac version was even released here), and Amazon won't ship it here. Any suggestions to aid this are most welcome. My other options are a) not playing the full trilogy and playing it on my gfs crappy laptop instead - I must confess that neither appeals to me as much as running the full game on my 40" HTPC mac mini.

[Spjuv3rn]

Urdjur wrote...


It's impossible to find second hand in Swedish stores (I doubt the Mac version was even released here), and Amazon won't ship it here. Any suggestions to aid this are most welcome.

I doubt this is helpful but i can confirm it was released for mac in Sweden, though i've only seen one copy of it in my life.

[Urdjur]

Thanks Spjuv3rn, you've got PM By Firkraag's beard, I'll track down a copy of that game yet!

Edit: I'm still thinking about my tentative spell list (to be tested out before I start the run of course). Mon Dieu que c'est complex! I'll be back with... something, for you folks to comment on.

Modifié par Urdjur, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:11 .

[suttree]

*When installing SCS-II over SR, SCS-II normally doesn't include its "More Consistent Breach" package, since SR has another solution to liches/rakshasas in its modified Pierce Shield?
*However, you edit this option out to conserve the SCS-II mod which makes Breach work against everything except the turning suite of spell protections?

SCS is modular - one can pick and choose which components to install.  If you prefer SR, don't install the corresponding SCS component.  If you prefer SCS, install the SCS component. 
SCS breach differs only slightly from SR (both are blocked by Spell Turning etc.) in that it hits liches/rakshasa.

*Do you know if Remove/Dispel Magic is also capped at level 20 as it is in PnP, or if level differences are counted beyond that?

Inquisitor Dispel Magic seems to work reliably at all levels, so no.

*Do you know if PIs inherit spell triggers/sequencers you have set? In that case, I need not worry about the casting time when choosing certain spells.

No.  Triggers and Contingencies are not inherited. 

*The PI according to SR turns the caster invisible to prevent recharging through spell trap, which is also kinda useful for protection. But what happens if an enemy uses SR Oracle/True Sight in the vicinity of both the Original Caster and the PI? If the PI has warded itself with SI: Divination, will that prevent the invisibility on the OC from disappearing too?

SI:Div on the PI does not protect the caster.    If you want to protect your caster, Contingency: Otiluke: Helpless should work.

*Btw, thanks for the reading material - it was educative, though some of it seems out of date when compared to more recent versions of SR/SCS. Also, somthing I forgot in a previous posts:

Just background on the content of improved tactical encounters. 

*I understand that the weidu version of BGT is now as stable on Mac as the weidu TuTu, including mod compatibility?

Apologies, not a mac user.  Thought it was fine, but apparently it still takes work to get BGT on Mac.  Possible but probably not worth the effort. Tutu wins.

<edit> Note you will use SCS on BG1 and SCS2 on BG2

Modifié par suttree, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:17 .

[Urdjur]

Thanks for those clarifications. I soon have a spell list ready for some beta testing chez Irenicus and beginning of ToB while I wait to get my hands on BG1 for Mac. There are a few slots that I have trouble finalizing:



2nd level spell at level 11: I will have Invisibility, Web, Knock and Mirror Image. Should the last slot be:

A) Glitterdust, for its use as a thief-type anti-measure (I sometimes have trouble with those since they don't reveal with True Sight and pop out of nowhere) or

Strength, for improving damage with MMM (does it still?) and debuffing golems without MR/save (does it still?)

C) Another must-have for SCS-II that I've missed?



3rd level spell at level 22: This will obviously have a marginal effect on the game, being of such low level and coming into play so late. Still, I clever choice may simplify the high level game. I will already have MS-1, MMM, Remove Magic and Spell Thrust. Should the last slot be:

A) Skull Trap, for its tactical options (its use as a primary damage dealer is largely outplayed by Sunfire, ADHW and Dragon's Breath at this point), or

B)Clairvoyance, as a powerful but narrow alternative with the same motivation as Glitterdust above



Finally, the 6th level summon. It would be nice if it was as compatible as possible with my "death matrix" which may consist of Grease, Web (comprises [web] and [hold] effects) and Cloudkill (a [poison] effect)

*Invisible Stalker: Immune to poison and hold. Hampered by the grease (slow) and web effect (which does what exactly?)

*Wyvern Call: Immune to grease, web and hold, but not poison, meaning it will turn hostile from Cloudkill.



That's all I can think of for the moment - the other picks seem clear cut (at least right now).