345 réponses à ce sujet

[Tiax Rules All]

*sigh* Siabh

well i was waiting for the sexism talk...

I see some things as truths.. you can spout off the reasonings of the modern independant woman but lets be real about some things. This is why the whole thing should be avoided

[Anna0_o]

AmyBA wrote...

GodWood wrote...

AmyBA wrote...
I am really starting to think I am the only female fan of Bioware games who hates the idea of the PCs getting pregnant, having babies, being parents, etc, whatever else.

I don't want to in real life, I don't want to in game. I don't get what is up with the baby obsession these days, its a bit scary...

It'd be optional.
Besides, I personally have no desire to ever have kids in RL but certain characters I'd make for DA2 would be the type to want kids with their LI thus having kids would increase my role-palying enjoyment with those types of characters.

The problem is, something like that would be hard to make "optional".

Consider a game like Mass Effect, where there are books that mention Shepard. Love interests alone can be changed and be optional, they don't have to be mentioned in stories, they do not carry the same kind of impact, they can remain in the background. But a child? A child has a HUGE impact on that character, from now on and forever. Everything that character does will now have to be done differently, its a very big life and character altering event. Continuity between stories and carrying over decisions changes big time when its between baby or no baby, that characters history and impact on the world is now much larger and longer lasting. I really don't see it as being something they would honestly make optional.

Choose between having a child with your LI thus making them unable to accompany you in future quests (To look after *child*), or not having a child at all? Just a wild idea. 

[GodWood]

AmyBA wrote...
The problem is, something like that would be hard to make "optional".

Consider a game like Mass Effect, where there are books that mention Shepard. Love interests alone can be changed and be optional, they don't have to be mentioned in stories, they do not carry the same kind of impact, they can remain in the background. But a child? A child has a HUGE impact on that character, from now on and forever. Everything that character does will now have to be done differently, its a very big life and character altering event. Continuity between stories and carrying over decisions changes big time when its between baby or no baby, that characters history and impact on the world is now much larger and longer lasting. I really don't see it as being something they would honestly make optional.

Not really.
Mass Effect produces direct sequals to their titles that centre around Shepard's battle to stop the Reapers.
Dragon Age does not.
Dragon Age produces individual stories with a beginning, middle and an end to the protaganist's journey.
Whether Hawke had one kid, no kid, or 20 kids is completely unimportant to the story of say; "the Champion of Orlais".

Modifié par GodWood, 12 janvier 2011 - 12:38 .

[AmyBA]

Anna0_o wrote...

Choose between having a child with your LI thus making them unable to accompany you in future quests (To look after *child*), or not having a child at all? Just a wild idea. 

And, point? It still fits with why it makes it hard to make it an optional decsion, the impact on story is rather large, more so than just who you are sleeping with.

You now have future generations and much longer lasting influences from your character in the world.

Having a kid drastcially alters a characters life so much that trying to make a game that branches between "no kid in life" to "now kid in life" would be A LOT of story work...

You can't sit there and tell me the everything and everyone is going to react around the PC exactly the same when a kid is in their life or not.


EDIT AGAIN:
Since when is this JUST about Dragon Age? I am talking Bioware games in general, as was mentioned in the original topic. My thinking and arguing is more focused on future games and IP, and nothing current in the works (as i am pretty sure we wont be seeing much of any kids being born in anything current).

Modifié par AmyBA, 12 janvier 2011 - 12:51 .

[Saibh]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

*sigh* Siabh
well i was waiting for the sexism talk...
I see some things as truths.. you can spout off the reasonings of the modern independant woman but lets be real about some things. This is why the whole thing should be avoided

It is sexism. Not just towards women--towards men, too. Assuming that they don't love and care as much as a mother can, or would. That's insulting, far more than the claim that women can't be bad, neglectful parents.

[Milana_Saros]

Saibh wrote...


Latent sexism. Assuming that a father doesn't need to care. Also assuming that a mother does. Each Hawke is equal in this regard.

You are right, it is sexism. However I'm perfectly aware that it's personal to everyone. We are talking about a game feature here which is why I fealt the need to generalize. Don't you think I would be quite old fashioned and narrow minded if I actually thought like that?

Says who? They'd probably have next to the same dialogue options.

I'm talking about the biological bond. Which is different. Sexism or not.

Fathers aren't protective over their children?

Never claimed they wouldn't be. I specifically said that they can act like a douche if they SO CHOOSE.

But this is an obligation for women, and optional for men. Rather an insulting assumption for both gendes.

Was just an example of how I, even if I don't have kids, reflect the "mother tiger" behavior towards the people closest to me. Men are protective sure. I never claimed they wouldn't be. You're reading into it far too much IMO. Merely trying to make people get that the biological bond is STILL different. Sexism aside.

Depends on the FemHawke. I imagine it's
optional--if yours doesn't, don't give birth. If mine does, she will.
Perhaps, the way she sees it, everyone she loves is always in danger
(also, no raging wars with darkspawn in this game), but she doesn't cut
ties with everyone. She protects them.

Or course it depends on the FemHawke. I still am not as stupid as to think that it wouldn't. And not raging wars of darkspawn? Well OK, gee, was just an example, a hypotethic one since all we can do is make assumptions about a game feature that might not (hopefully) excist. Again, IMO, you are going to deep with this. FemHawke is a game character, made by Bioware, she does what Bioware makes her to do. Creating own-made background stories is a completely different matter and an unfair thing to grab on.

Risk? There's nothing in the game that BioWare does not include. You can't treat your kid like crap unless they let you.

You probably mean that misstreatment would be prohibited to begin with. Still, doesn't prevent people from tinkering around.

Also, I think you need to reevaluate your judgment on "twisted and sick" if you think NPC-slaying is that. What I would do in a game is not what I would do in Real Life.

Did I talk about NPC-slaying in general? Well maybe I did but I assumed that people would know the difference between slaying male/female opponents opposed to torturing harmless NPC's like the Adorind Fan or killing your own horse and pushing it off of a cliff. That's what I meant.

Well, he's not, and you couldn't do that. Irrelevant. Also, the Ann--Adoring Fan is immortal.

Yes you are correct. Which is exactly why I said "not so closely relevant". This is all a hypothetic discussion. Whis is why I use assumptions. And immortal? Doesn't prevent people from recording execution videos.

You can't do anything that developers won't let you. You can't be mean, harm the child, ignore the child, kick the child, kill the child, burn the child, and so on if they don't include that option.

And people wouldn't find a path around it?

I honestly don't think that my view of this is so bad and illogical. But many people seem to be driven with the desire to have kids in a video game. OK, whatever if it's completely optional. It would however, made me re-evaluate my desire to play this type of games. As I've said before, enough is enough.

[Anna0_o]

AmyBA wrote...

Anna0_o wrote...


Choose between having a child with your LI thus making them unable to accompany you in future quests (To look after *child*), or not having a child at all? Just a wild idea. 

And, point? It still fits with why it makes it hard to make it an optional decsions, the impact on story is rather huge than just who you are sleeping with.

You now have future generations and much longer lasting influences from your character in the world.

Having a kid drastcially alters a characters life so much that trying to make a game that branches between "no kid in life" to "now kid in life" would be A LOT of story work...

You can't sit there and tell me the everything and everyone is going to react around the PC exactly the same when a kid is in their life or not.


EDIT AGAIN:
Since when is this JUST about Dragon Age? I am talking Bioware games in general, as was mentioned in the original topic...

Sorry about the 'Dragon Age' reference, my mistake.

I'm just saying some people would be interested in having a kid, some wouldn't. Tell you the truth, I'm not to keen on the idea of an in-game child myself, though if the option was there I'm sure I'd give it a go...at least once.

And my point? Well, if Bioware saw it as an appropriate addition to a story that would satisfy a good percent of it's customers, why not put it in? Very much the same as having LIs in the first place, etc etc etc.

Personally I don't think they'd put it in yet, (Excluding perhaps in the ending epilogue?) or for quite a while, anyhow. But who are any of us to say what those devious devs () would and wouldn't do? 

I'm sure whatever happens, pregnancy or no, their games should be as fun and entertaining to play as usual. 

[AmyBA]

Saibh wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

*sigh* Siabh
well i was waiting for the sexism talk...
I see some things as truths.. you can spout off the reasonings of the modern independant woman but lets be real about some things. This is why the whole thing should be avoided

It is sexism. Not just towards women--towards men, too. Assuming that they don't love and care as much as a mother can, or would. That's insulting, far more than the claim that women can't be bad, neglectful parents.

Heh, in my marriage, Hed be the good parent and I the bad. Hes good with kids, im and freakin' TERRIBLE.

Which is why we do not plan to have kids.

Anna0_o wrote...

Sorry about the 'Dragon Age' reference, my mistake.

I'm just saying some people would be interested in having a kid, some wouldn't. Tell you the truth, I'm not to keen on the idea of an in-game child myself, though if the option was there I'm sure I'd give it a go...at least once.

And my point? Well, if Bioware saw it as an appropriate addition to a story that would satisfy a good percent of
it's customers, why not put it in? Very much the same as having LIs in the first place, etc etc etc.

Personally I don't think they'd put it in yet, (Excluding perhaps in the ending epilogue?) or for quite a while, anyhow. But who are any of us to say what those devious devs ([smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]) would and wouldn't do? 

I'm sure whatever happens, pregnancy or no, their games should be as fun and entertaining to play as usual. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

I hope if they do decide, they are able to find a way do it in a manner that it is completely optional and would be able to no long term effects or impacts, so that the characters who choose not to are kind of left out of some big story element involving future generations.

And Ishould also note I am sorry if I come off harsh, it wasnt intentional, but my husband read through it and said I sounded angry, lol, so I apologize.

Modifié par AmyBA, 12 janvier 2011 - 01:01 .

[AmyBA]

EDIT: Bah, sorry, post freaked out and posted twice.

Modifié par AmyBA, 12 janvier 2011 - 12:58 .

[Anna0_o]

AmyBA wrote...

Anna0_o wrote...

Sorry about the 'Dragon Age' reference, my mistake.

I'm
just saying some people would be interested in having a kid, some
wouldn't. Tell you the truth, I'm not to keen on the idea of an in-game
child myself, though if the option was there I'm sure I'd give it a
go...at least once.

And my point? Well, if Bioware saw it as an
appropriate addition to a story that would satisfy a good percent of
it's customers, why not put it in? Very much the same as having LIs in
the first place, etc etc etc.

Personally I don't think they'd put
it in yet, (Excluding perhaps in the ending epilogue?) or for quite a
while, anyhow. But who are any of us to say what those devious devs ([smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]) would and wouldn't do? 

I'm sure whatever happens, pregnancy or no, their games should be as fun and entertaining to play as usual. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

I
hope if they do decide, they are able to find a way do it in a manner
that it is completely optional and would be able to no long term effects
or impacts, so that the characters who choose not to are kind of left
out of some big story element involving future generations.

And I
should also note I am sorry if I come off harsh, it wasnt intentional,
but my husband read through it and said I sounded angry, lol, so I
apologize.

Don't mention it, the one downfall of typing something is the lack of 'tone' you can put to what you're tring to say, that's why I say thank-god for emoticons!  

[Milana_Saros]

AmyBA wrote...

And, point? It still fits with why it makes it hard to make it an optional decsion, the impact on story is rather large, more so than just who you are sleeping with.

You now have future generations and much longer lasting influences from your character in the world.

Having a kid drastcially alters a characters life so much that trying to make a game that branches between "no kid in life" to "now kid in life" would be A LOT of story work...

You can't sit there and tell me the everything and everyone is going to react around the PC exactly the same when a kid is in their life or not.

Wish I could make short and on-point posts like this. Pretty much what I was trying to say but I have a bad habit of ranting and that's when people start twisting your words and looking too deep into it.

[The Lesser Evil]

This whole pregnancy issue was so much simpler when it involved a Grey Warden, a Witch of the Wilds, a magical ritual, an archdemon and the soul of an old God.

[BunnyisCthulhu]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Anna0_o wrote...

It wouldn't really be fair to let M-Hawke knock someone up, and not let F-Hawke GET knocked up. So if it does happen, it would have to happen for both, or neither.

I see a pretty big difference really... Have a feeling by explaining it i will be going into sexism territory though. Fair has nothing to do with it really. Just logistics

They could be able to deal with it by having a time-jump that is about a year long (and a wet nurse). Which I expect to be common (they are from noble stock, so they may have wet nurses).

If you're going by the idea that Hawke is part of the nobility, then neither fem or male Hawke would have much impact on their child's upbringing. Parents would have others to care for their children so they can continue to rule over their lands/have more children.


Either way, I'm not bothered if we can/can't have kids. I'll be curious to see how they implement it if we can, but I won't sadface if we can't, my Hawke will just have to be a badass auntie 

[pink_alora]

I think if that was ever to be included it would be optional since romances are optional already and it wont have a great impact on the story.. I doubt though it will happen in DA 2..

[Anna0_o]

Ninalupa wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Anna0_o wrote...

It wouldn't really be fair to let M-Hawke knock someone up, and not let F-Hawke GET knocked up. So if it does happen, it would have to happen for both, or neither.

I see a pretty big difference really... Have a feeling by explaining it i will be going into sexism territory though. Fair has nothing to do with it really. Just logistics

They could be able to deal with it by having a time-jump that is about a year long (and a wet nurse). Which I expect to be common (they are from noble stock, so they may have wet nurses).

If you're going by the idea that Hawke is part of the nobility, then neither fem or male Hawke would have much impact on their child's upbringing. Parents would have others to care for their children so they can continue to rule over their lands/have more children.


Either way, I'm not bothered if we can/can't have kids. I'll be curious to see how they implement it if we can, but I won't sadface if we can't, my Hawke will just have to be a badass auntie 

Gotta love the badass Aunty. 

[Saibh]

Milana_Saros wrote...

You are right, it is sexism. However I'm perfectly aware that it's personal to everyone. We are talking about a game feature here which is why I fealt the need to generalize. Don't you think I would be quite old fashioned and narrow minded if I actually thought like that?

Traditional people also don't think you should have sex before marriage. We're not playing a traditional-minded game.

I'm talking about the biological bond. Which is different. Sexism or not.

No one is bound to anything. You are assuming every mother is like this. When's the last time you've heard about a bad mom? Pretty recently, I imagine.

Never claimed they wouldn't be. I specifically said that they can act like a douche if they SO CHOOSE.

Not if the developers don't add that choice. The sexist, sexist "women must be like this, but men are also like that", choice.

Was just an example of how I, even if I don't have kids, reflect the "mother tiger" behavior towards the people closest to me. Men are protective sure. I never claimed they wouldn't be. You're reading into it far too much IMO. Merely trying to make people get that the biological bond is STILL different. Sexism aside.

Fathers have biological bonds to their children, too. To say that it can't be as strong as a mother's is sexism. Because it's wrong. Mothers are more likely to have a stronger bond, but there's the beauty of RP, eh?

You probably mean that misstreatment would be prohibited to begin with. Still, doesn't prevent people from tinkering around.

What, with code? Modding something? Sure, I can mod the option to be Alistair's identical twin sister, despite it breaking the laws of biology. Doesn't mean anything. People added whole interactive brothel mods and this has raised no ire.

As far as being able to tinker around with something in the game without mods...no, you can't do that.

Did I talk about NPC-slaying in general? Well maybe I did but I assumed that people would know the difference between slaying male/female opponents opposed to torturing harmless NPC's like the Adorind Fan or killing your own horse and pushing it off of a cliff. That's what I meant.

And this makes "sick and twisted" people? 

And people wouldn't find a path around it?

Can you kill Eamon? Sure, you can mod in his death and break the game, but can you? Is there any way? No. Open worlds like Oblivion are totally different. DAII is a closed world with closed paths. You can't mistreat your kid if they don't have the option.

I honestly don't think that my view of this is so bad and illogical. But many people seem to be driven with the desire to have kids in a video game. OK, whatever if it's completely optional. It would however, made me re-evaluate my desire to play this type of games. As I've said before, enough is enough.

If it was optional, and this is your issue, yeah, it's illogical. You're make wild assumptions about things the developers might include, and what you think the players might do with what they don't. Which they can't.

[AmyBA]

Anna0_o wrote...

Ninalupa wrote...


Either way, I'm not bothered if we can/can't have kids. I'll be curious to see how they implement it if we can, but I won't sadface if we can't, my Hawke will just have to be a badass auntie 

Gotta love the badass Aunty. 

Yes, now THAT is something I would be happy with!

Modifié par AmyBA, 12 janvier 2011 - 01:26 .

[Anna0_o]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

This whole pregnancy issue was so much simpler when it involved a Grey Warden, a Witch of the Wilds, a magical ritual, an archdemon and the soul of an old God.

Until...
 One day the Warden was walking out his door, to which his surprise he saw a small, hand-written letter slipped under his door. He threw the door open and saw nothing but the falling rain, and what he thought to be a tiny flicker of a shadow around the corner. He opened the envelope and read it to himself.
"To _______, it has come to our attention that you owe to Morrigan of the Wilds the sum of 500,2500 Gold in child support. Failure to pay this can result in law-suit and/or jail".

There wasn't really a 'God Baby', the sneaky harlot just wanted your cash.

There'll be DLC for it...You'll see. 

Modifié par Anna0_o, 12 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[Urazz]

I think it's possible with the time skips and all but I think if it did happen, it would be towards the end of the game so bioware wouldn't have to worry about developing a personality for said baby.

[The Lesser Evil]

Anna0_o wrote...
Until...
 One day the Warden was walking out his door, to which his surprise he saw a small, hand-written letter slipped under his door. He threw the door open and saw nothing but the falling rain, and what he thought to be a tiny flicker of a shadow around the corner. He opened the envelope and read it to himself.
"To _______, it has come to our attention that you owe to Morrigan of the Wilds the sum of 500,2500 Gold in child support. Failure to pay this can result in law-suit and/or jail".

There wasn't really a 'God Baby', the sneaky harlot just wanted your cash.

There'll be DLC for it...You'll see. 

There was already DLC for it, it's called Witch Hunt. It pre-empted the child suppot claim by giving my Warden the option to go through the mirror with Morrigan to take care of the child, or just by stabbing her.

[drahelvete]

Yrkoon wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

In Baldur's Gate 2 - a BioWare RPG, you could get one of your L.I.'s (I can't remember her name for the life of me, it was one of the elves) pregnant by the expansion.

  Yep.  Aerie.

And that one had the single most deliciously evil dialogue choice *ever*.  When she initiates the love talk to tell you she's pregnant, you had the option to say:  "that's great.  Take a hike, Mommy"


By the way, we really don't have to go all the way back to Bg2, here.   In DA:O you could get Morrigan pregnant, remember?  Although the game  ends  shortly thereafter.

And there's the Of Noble Birth quest for Dwarf Nobles.

[Anna0_o]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

Anna0_o wrote...
Until...
 One day the Warden was walking out his door, to which his surprise he saw a small, hand-written letter slipped under his door. He threw the door open and saw nothing but the falling rain, and what he thought to be a tiny flicker of a shadow around the corner. He opened the envelope and read it to himself.
"To _______, it has come to our attention that you owe to Morrigan of the Wilds the sum of 500,2500 Gold in child support. Failure to pay this can result in law-suit and/or jail".

There wasn't really a 'God Baby', the sneaky harlot just wanted your cash.

There'll be DLC for it...You'll see. 

There was already DLC for it, it's called Witch Hunt. It pre-empted the child suppot claim by giving my Warden the option to go through the mirror with Morrigan to take care of the child, or just by stabbing her.

DARN. Yet another spoiled theory to add to the collection. 
Back to the drawing board, I suppose. 

[shadowpiranha]

In a plot spanning 10 years, 9 months is not that long, so yeah, I could even see a FemHawke getting pregnant. It would be kind of cool, especially if the child were born a mage and you'd have an even bigger reason to fight the Templars, who would obviously want to take your kid away. Of course this is just an example of how the kid could fit in the plot, which I think would be necessary. Having a kid just because doesn't seem as good to me.

[Tiax Rules All]

shadowpiranha wrote...

In a plot spanning 10 years, 9 months is not that long, so yeah, I could even see a FemHawke getting pregnant. It would be kind of cool, especially if the child were born a mage and you'd have an even bigger reason to fight the Templars, who would obviously want to take your kid away. Of course this is just an example of how the kid could fit in the plot, which I think would be necessary. Having a kid just because doesn't seem as good to me.

Honestly I really think Bioware can come up with better ideas for a plot then that.

Look I take bets right now... There will be no pregnancy of any kind of Fem Hawke or created by Male Hawke

[nightcobra]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

shadowpiranha wrote...

In a plot spanning 10 years, 9 months is not that long, so yeah, I could even see a FemHawke getting pregnant. It would be kind of cool, especially if the child were born a mage and you'd have an even bigger reason to fight the Templars, who would obviously want to take your kid away. Of course this is just an example of how the kid could fit in the plot, which I think would be necessary. Having a kid just because doesn't seem as good to me.

Honestly I really think Bioware can come up with better ideas for a plot then that.

Look I take bets right now... There will be no pregnancy of any kind of main character or created by main character in future dragon age games.

fixed
i like this bet better.
makes it easier to prove it wrong down the line.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 12 janvier 2011 - 01:49 .