87 réponses à ce sujet

[redzin]

As the title says, the distance from the Citadel to Earth is 50,000 lightyears (according to this comic).

That got me thinking... theoretically, if they had a really good telescope on Earth, they could see the Reapers in action on the Citadel back when the Prothean extinction was happening.

It wouldn't be easy, but neither would FTL technology be. If they can use quantum entanglement and FTL technology, they can make a crazy telescope too.

So yeah, is this like a small plot hole or is there a reason they don't do this? Or is there a scientific reason why this wouldn't work that I've missed?

Modifié par redzin, 12 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Aeowyn]

Are you saying there's a plothole because the humans didn't use a telescope to see the Prothean Extinction?

When the Prothean extinction begun, humans were still neanderthals.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 12 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[EatChildren]

Its a 'plot hole' in the many plot holes in Mass Effect, because Mass Effect is based on classic pop-culture sci fi like Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, and so on, and not on grounded, realistic science fiction.



There's no point trying to bring in real world science to Mass Effect's universe, because Mass Effect has always defied science. But that's why we love it.

[samurai crusade]

Why use telescopes to see planets that you can find on the extranet or can jump to on a weekend getaway? My guess the average astronomer in ME time goes to the nebula he wants to research and not stare through a big scope on his own planet. It's like writting a letter when you can IM someone or text

[SLPr0]

Something that wasn't considered in the original writing of Mass Effect.

The astrophysics involved in ME2 are actually far more conscientious but yes, you are correct, due to the speed of light, you would be able to use a massive telescopic array or laser orbital telescopic array to view the Reaper attack of the Citadel from Earth, effectively around the same time the Mass Effect story starts, plus or minus five to ten years, 20 years at the outside. Dependent on when the actual relay jump occurred, if we're to be conscientious and apply the laws of modern science its no more likely that actually dating Prothean ruins will have any more or less exactitude than we have with our own technology at this time, so one should always view archaeological estimates of "50,000" years with a margin of error.

Modifié par SLPr0, 12 janvier 2011 - 02:42 .

[SLPr0]

None of the people above me took Physics.

Modifié par SLPr0, 12 janvier 2011 - 02:42 .

[redzin]

When the Citadel is 50,000 lightyears away from Earth, that means it takes 50,000 years for light to travel between them. In other words, if you look at the Citadel from Earth, you would see the Citadel as it was 50,000 years ago.

It's like the light from our own Sun, which is ~8 minutes old when it reaches Earth. The light from the Citadel would be 50,000 years old.

Modifié par redzin, 16 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[Ulzeraj]

Don't try to apply science to mass effect. Add relativistic concepts and limitations and you'll end up screwing the story.



Also it doesn't work like that. The galaxy is full of dust that prevents us from "looking" through it. Projects like the Spitzer telescope circumvent this limitation by analyzing the infra-red wave length.



The size of the galaxy is 100k light years in diameter and 1k light year thick. We have a better view of other galaxies than other parts of our own galaxy.

[SLPr0]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Don't try to apply science to mass effect. Add relativistic concepts and limitations and you'll end up screwing the story.

Also it doesn't work like that. The galaxy is full of dust that prevents us from "looking" through it. Projects like the Spitzer telescope circumvent this limitation by analyzing the infra-red wave length.

The size of the galaxy is 100k light years in diameter and 1k light year thick. We have a better view of other galaxies than other parts of our own galaxy.

This is also true but given the success of the WMAP project, and given that we're talking about science as of around 2160 or beyond, we could logically assume that advances on that kind of imaging could be made and potentially detect the actual original Reaper attack on the Citadel as of the same time previous to the events that brought us into the story.

Yes applying real science does sort of take some of the fun out of it, but, theoretical science advances between now and 160 years from now would demand that imaging would be a far more advanced field than it already is.

[redzin]

SLPr0 wrote...

Something that wasn't considered in the original writing of Mass Effect.

The astrophysics involved in ME2 are actually far more conscientious but yes, you are correct, due to the speed of light, you would be able to use a massive telescopic array or laser orbital telescopic array to view the Reaper attack of the Citadel from Earth, effectively around the same time the Mass Effect story starts, plus or minus five to ten years, 20 years at the outside. Dependent on when the actual relay jump occurred, if we're to be conscientious and apply the laws of modern science its no more likely that actually dating Prothean ruins will have any more or less exactitude than we have with our own technology at this time, so one should always view archaeological estimates of "50,000" years with a margin of error.

Yes, so it would indeed be possible if the Prothean extinction happened exactly 50,000 years ago, and if the distance really is exactly 50,000 lightyears.

And to those above saying that ME isn't "real science"; a large part of it actually is fairly close, or at least inspired by real science. The non-scientific things in ME (like FTL and biotics) are explained by adding to the current science, not by discarding it. There's plenty of references to real science in ME, which is one of the reasons it's so good.

Modifié par redzin, 12 janvier 2011 - 02:52 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

While an interesting observation, it's really looking too much into things.

[Fredvdp]

Don't forget this is a no spoiler forum so try and be as vague as possible.

samurai crusade wrote...

Why use telescopes to see planets that you can find on the extranet or can jump to on a weekend getaway? My guess the average astronomer in ME time goes to the nebula he wants to research and not stare through a big scope on his own planet. It's like writting a letter when you can IM someone or text

Wow, talk about completely missing the point.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:04 .

[Ulzeraj]

redzin wrote...
And to those above saying that ME isn't "real science"; a large part of it actually is fairly close, or at least inspired by real science. The non-scientific things in ME (like FTL and biotics) are explained by adding to the current science, not by discarding it. There's plenty of references to real science in ME, which is one of the reasons it's so good.

My knowledge of physics and astronomy is amateur and mediocre at best but there are many things that just don't feel right about Mass Effect or even other sci-fi titles. For example... blue supergiants cant sustain planetary systems because its radiation is so strong that causes photoevaporation of all nearby matter (including neighbour stars). There are at least 1 or 2 blue giant star systems with planets on ME2. Even if they were extrasolar captures they just shouldnt be there.

There is also the case of the suits. So hell yeah if Jupiter's radiation is 8000 times bigger than what is considered a "lethal dose" how in the nine hells they jump from a delerict reaper "falling" on a brown dwarf (37-90x the size of Jupiter? Young enough to have nuclear fusion...) using nothing more than a mask? 

The correct answer is: their outfits are cool and the story is more interesting. Just ignore and keep playing.

Faster-Than-Light is not a fiction. The concept exists (general relativity suggests it) but not as is presented on the ME universe. 

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:11 .

[SLPr0]

I still have to concur, imaging systems in the Systems Alliance as of the time of around 2160 to 2180 would be far superior to what we have currently. Technically all someone would have to do is point one of them at the Citadel and they could,perhaps, detect some level of activity in the Widow Nebula that would indicate massive spectral blueshifts entering that area.

It is, perhaps, logical to assume that with FTL comms and QEC and what not that the archaic method of imaging by light collection may have fallen into disuse and there may not be any major imaging projects in the SAN that aren't based on FTL science in some way. But you'd think there would still be at least one big mirror out there somewhere, just to take pictures of the galaxy and study it as it was in the past.

Astrophysical Archaeology? Interesting concept.

Modifié par SLPr0, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .

[baryonic member]

good luck spotting a 44km long station at 50.k lightyears, okay. we cant even see planets directly in ze closest star systems to us, we can only detect shadows and their gravitational pull, yes?

[SLPr0]

baryonic member wrote...

good luck spotting a 44km long station at 50.k lightyears, okay. we cant even see planets directly in ze closest star systems to us, we can only detect shadows and their gravitational pull, yes?

160 years, between now, and then.

Moore's Law. You're assuming what we'd be able to image in 2160 - 2180 would be the exact same thing we could image today. I highly doubt that will be the case, provided we survive ourselves to get there.

[Ulzeraj]

baryonic member wrote...

good luck spotting a 44km long station at 50.k lightyears, okay. we cant even see planets directly in ze closest star systems to us, we can only detect shadows and their gravitational pull, yes?

 http://blogs.discove...items-pictures/

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ulzeraj wrote...

My knowledge of physics and astronomy is amateur and mediocre at best but there are many things that just don't feel right about Mass Effect or even other sci-fi titles. For example... blue supergiants cant sustain planetary systems because its radiation is so strong that causes photoevaporation of all nearby matter (including neighbour stars). There are at least 1 or 2 blue giant star systems with planets on ME2. Even if they were extrasolar captures they just shouldnt be there.

It's entirely dependent on how massive said supergiant is; blue supergiants are typically between 10 to 50 or so Solar masses. Planets could form around a supergiant with a decent mass of, says, 18 Solar masses, for instance. However, said planets would have to be sufficiently distant from the star for them to orbit comfortably with no significant perturbations. By sufficiently, I mean a distance of at least 350-750 AU. Anything closer than that would be too much for a planetary body to handle.

[Tyrael02]

Aeowyn wrote...

Are you saying there's a plothole because the humans didn't use a telescope to see the Prothean Extinction?

When the Prothean extinction begun, humans were still neanderthals.

****** sapiens sapiens are a different lineage of hominid species than neanderthals. humans were never neanderthals. But I agree with you that theres no way they could have stopped the prothean extinction. With the rise of anatomically modern humans and the first of any technology or knowledge (that is, agriculture) being only roughly 10 000 years old, theres no way in hell humanity could've stopped the prothean extinction, let alone even see it.

[samurai crusade]

Fredvdp wrote...

Don't forget this is a no spoiler forum so try and be as vague as possible.

samurai crusade wrote...

Why use telescopes to see planets that you can find on the extranet or can jump to on a weekend getaway? My guess the average astronomer in ME time goes to the nebula he wants to research and not stare through a big scope on his own planet. It's like writting a letter when you can IM someone or text

Wow, talk about completely missing the point.

Really? because I would have guessed ME scientists and astronomers wouldn't used primative observation techniques? I was merely giving an explanation as to why nobody in ME  has thought of this.        I took physics.. it's my minor.  Technically you would be able to spot the Reaper invasion as it was 50,000 years ago... providing there is nothing to block your vision.  Whether it be dust, glare, etc.

[redzin]

baryonic member wrote...

good luck spotting a 44km long station at 50.k lightyears, okay. we cant even see planets directly in ze closest star systems to us, we can only detect shadows and their gravitational pull, yes?

Technology will have advanced a lot; they have FTL and what not. It's not too unlikely that they'd be able to at least get some sort of data about what was going on at the time of the Prothean extinction.

Ulzeraj wrote...
My knowledge of physics and astronomy is
amateur and mediocre at best but there are many things that just don't
feel right about Mass Effect or even other sci-fi titles. For example...
blue supergiants cant sustain planetary systems because its radiation
is so strong that causes photoevaporation of all nearby matter
(including neighbour stars). There are at least 1 or 2 blue giant star
systems with planets on ME2. Even if they were extrasolar captures they
just shouldnt be there.

There is also the case of the suits. So
hell yeah if Jupiter's radiation is 8000 times bigger than what is
considered a "lethal dose" how in the nine hells they jump from a
delerict reaper "falling" on a brown dwarf (37-90x the size of Jupiter?
Young enough to have nuclear fusion...) using nothing more than a mask? 

The correct answer is: their outfits are cool and the story is more interesting. Just ignore and keep playing.

Faster-Than-Light
is not a fiction. The concept exists (general relativity suggests it)
but not as is presented on the ME universe. 

Blue stars don't have to be supergiants. There are a couple of blue stars in the game that seem to be much larger than other stars though, so I suppose they could be considered supergiants.

About suits being super isolating; that could be explained as a technological advance. Like biotics, kinetic barriers, etc.

The thing about the 50k lightyears thing is that it would almost certainly be possible, yet they don't do it. It's not about doing the impossible, it's about not doing the possible.

Anyway, yeah the suits are cool and the story is great so it's all cool I guess.

Modifié par redzin, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:59 .

[Ulzeraj]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...

My knowledge of physics and astronomy is amateur and mediocre at best but there are many things that just don't feel right about Mass Effect or even other sci-fi titles. For example... blue supergiants cant sustain planetary systems because its radiation is so strong that causes photoevaporation of all nearby matter (including neighbour stars). There are at least 1 or 2 blue giant star systems with planets on ME2. Even if they were extrasolar captures they just shouldnt be there.

It's entirely dependent on how massive said supergiant is; blue supergiants are typically between 10 to 50 or so Solar masses. Planets could form around a supergiant with a decent mass of, says, 18 Solar masses, for instance. However, said planets would have to be sufficiently distant from the star for them to orbit comfortably with no significant perturbations. By sufficiently, I mean a distance of at least 350-750 AU. Anything closer than that would be too much for a planetary body to handle.

I dont know if the article I checked was vague but they were specifying any class O (blue giant/supergiant - 20-90 times the mass of the Sun) class stars. This pic shows that the affected area can be huge enough to affect other stars:



I'm using a macbook right now (no ME for Macs QQ) and I'm lazy to walk to the PC and search for the name of the blue giant star system. Also, I remember the flotilla being stationed on the orbit of a binary blue giant star (no planets).

redzin wrote...

Blue stars don't have be supergiants. There are a couple of blue stars in the game that seem to be much larger than in the other systems though, so I suppose they could be considered supergiants.

class A (1-2 times the mass of the sun) and B (2-16 times the mass of the sun) can be blue. Blue giants are the class O main sequence stars.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:39 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ulzeraj wrote...


I dont know if the article I checked was vague but they were specifying any class O (blue giant/supergiant - 20-90 times the mass of the Sun) class stars. Like this:

*snip image*

I'm using a macbook right now (no ME for Macs QQ) and I'm lazy to walk to the PC and search for the name of the blue giant star system. Also, I remember the flotilla being stationed on the orbit of a binary blue giant star.

Oh yeah, I'm not denying this. But it ultimately depends on how massive the supergiant in question is. More massive supergiants tend to be more monstrous and as such it's unlikely to find planetary companions around them. Less massive supergiants are likely to have planetary companions lying somewhere inside their Hill Sphere (region within which a smaller body will orbit a larger due to the latter's gravitational attraction), but only at certain distances.

Remember that the more massive a star is, the more likely any planets around it will lie far off because anything too close to it will have been eaten away or evaporated by the star itself. It's a typical mass-distance dilemma. Basically, if you're far enough, you're fine.

Regardless, blue supergiants indeed aren't the best type of star to look for planets, but it's not impossible for them to possess planets.

[SLPr0]

Spectral analysis would at least give clues, even if somehow, the technology of the 22nd Century failed to address issues with dealing with visual imaging challenges we face today. The sudden massive spike in blue shifted to red shifted light in the Widow Nebula would be a huge indication that a large mass of "something" entered the Nebula at extreme speeds to slow to normal speeds after exiting the relay.

Given some thought to spectrograph scanning evolution it would be acceptable to assume an eezo trace spectrogram would be something we'd also be able to pick up.

So with a spectrographic imaging station, without any actual "visual" on what was within the Widow Nebula we would still be able to tell that a massive amount of something just entered the system at extreme speeds, we would be able to detect eezo traces in the spectrograph and even potentially calculate the rough number of unidentified objects that entered the nebula at that time by calculative analysis, and potentially even make some rough guesses on the size of the individual objects based on total eezo trace numbers in the spectro-analysis by doing some fairly (hypothetical) but simple math for the 22nd century to divide the amount of eezo in the spectro-analysis by the amount of total objects identified then extrapolate the mass of each object based on the total number of identified "objects" and dividing it by the total estimated eezo mass in the trace.

So even without "seeing" it, we could confirm, whether or not the Reaper Invasion of 50,000 years ago that wiped out the Protheans did occur. The science on the Prothean's in ME is fairly non-explicit, researchers know some of it, but not the entire story that Shepard and his team are exposed to. So its possible that they wouldn't even know, given the information they had, that they'd want to be looking at the Citadel to try to confirm this past invasion, but given that Shepard knows and Anderson knows and Hackett knows you can safely assume that some very intelligent scientists of the time are aware too.

It would make sense, knowing what they know, to simply point an advanced spectro-graphic imaging satellite at the Widow Nebula, and then just deconstruct the data from there. You would at least get a forewarning of the size of the potential Reaper Fleet that you're well aware is coming. Tactically that makes plenty of sense to me, even if its kept under a top secret clearance level.

Modifié par SLPr0, 12 janvier 2011 - 03:47 .

[Ulzeraj]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...


I dont know if the article I checked was vague but they were specifying any class O (blue giant/supergiant - 20-90 times the mass of the Sun) class stars. Like this:

*snip image*

I'm using a macbook right now (no ME for Macs QQ) and I'm lazy to walk to the PC and search for the name of the blue giant star system. Also, I remember the flotilla being stationed on the orbit of a binary blue giant star.

Oh yeah, I'm not denying this. But it ultimately depends on how massive the supergiant in question is. More massive supergiants tend to be more monstrous and as such it's unlikely to find planetary companions around them. Less massive supergiants are likely to have planetary companions lying somewhere inside their Hill Sphere (region within which a smaller body will orbit a larger due to the latter's gravitational attraction), but only at certain distances.

Remember that the more massive a star is, the more likely any planets around it will lie far off because anything too close to it will have been eaten away or evaporated by the star itself. It's a typical mass-distance dilemma. Basically, if you're far enough, you're fine.

Regardless, blue supergiants indeed aren't the best type of star to look for planets, but it's not impossible for them to possess planets.

I think the star is Nith and I was mistaken. It is a B-class14.9 times the mass of the Sun with 3 planets on the Krogan DMZ. I don't know if there are stars that are more massive than this present on the game.