87 réponses à ce sujet

[RaduM]

adam_grif wrote...



Do you have a dish to collect all the photons that is 4000 lightyears across or something?

Hmmm...

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rothla

" The method used to destroy the planetoid has never been deduced. The clan who performed the experiment apparently all died in the event.
Ships that have traveled to the edge of the event's light cone observed a
moment of extreme gravitational lensing around Rothla immediately
before its break up, but no other clues.
"

[Ulzeraj]

You guys insisting on this have no idea how things works and how breathtankingly 50.000 light years are. Yeah its 160 years in the future but its the same universe with its same physics.



And again... you dont simply take pictures of things that far. There are craploads of gases and dust on the Milky Way. We have a better view of other galaxies than of our own.



Its not a plothole.

[RaduM]

Ulzeraj wrote...

You guys insisting on this have no idea how things works and how breathtankingly 50.000 light years are. Yeah its 160 years in the future but its the same universe with its same physics.

And again... you dont simply take pictures of things that far. There are craploads of gases and dust on the Milky Way. We have a better view of other galaxies than of our own.

Its not a plothole.

But radio transmissions could be.



"Crap radio stations from two centuries back"

[Sandbox47]

Oh, hey! That's very clever.

In theory, that should be possible. And I guess that it might have been made on purpose. I don't know. I just comment because it's a brilliant realization.

[KainrycKarr]

redzin wrote...

No, when the Citadel is 50,000 lightyears away from Earth, that means it takes 50,000 years for light to travel between them. In other words, if you look at the Citadel from Earth, you would see the Citadel as it was 50,000 years ago.

It's like the the light from our own Sun, which is ~8 minutes old when it reaches Earth. The light from the Citadel would be 50,000 years old.

We have a winner.

[Ulzeraj]

RaduM wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...

You guys insisting on this have no idea how things works and how breathtankingly 50.000 light years are. Yeah its 160 years in the future but its the same universe with its same physics.

And again... you dont simply take pictures of things that far. There are craploads of gases and dust on the Milky Way. We have a better view of other galaxies than of our own.

Its not a plothole.

But radio transmissions could be.



"Crap radio stations from two centuries back"

Uh no.

First, broadcasts are not efficient.

Real world assumption: The more we humans evolve the more we stay away from radio broadcasting methods and adopting better ways of data transmission (i.e. fiber). This is actually an argument about why we may not get anything with our Seti project.

Mass Effect related assumption: As a race whose technology was based on the relays they probably used the same relay FTL technology for comm as all the present races. No reason to use obsolete and slow ways of communication.

mmm the relays are a perfect trap. Those reapers are smart. I like them.

So no prothean broadcasts for you.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 15 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .

[RaduM]

I am sorry,but your post denotes a certain ignorance when it comes to science fact.

You seem to be confused about the terms "radio" and "broadcast".

1) "Radio" means "radiation" ( not that thing you use to tune in to music in your car ) and I clarified the context in my post. A "radio telescope" isn't used to study the latest Miley Cyrus hit. It is used to study the radiation emissions from distant stars.

Everything from civilian/military communications (satellites and Earth-based), to light, to the emissions from unstable heavy metals like enriched uranium, everything is "radio emission" or "radiation" of different frequencies and amplitudes. It's all propagation of waves/particles.

And they all travel at the speed of light, the highest known attainable speed. ( Yes,the speed of light in a complete vacuum like deep space is higher than the speed of light in a planet's atmosphere, but this is besides the point ).

2) "Broadcast". "Broadcasts" are still used, believe it or not, it's not a term that describe.say, 1950's television/radio. In fact,all wireless communication is broadcast. That's why Signal Intelligence is such an important military branch for example.

3) You seem to be further confused about the "magical properties" of glass fiber wire optical data communication.

Wires, from a communications point of view, were used to carry data cheaply, efficiently and preferably privately from point A to point B ( as in,not broadcast . As you guessed, you if want to "not broadcast" your comms into the ether you use wires... something not exactly practical given the distances in space ).

Now the problem with wires is that they are,of course, solid ( as opposed to,say, thin air,which isn't ) and that means wires have an upper limit of the frequency (and amplitude,but this is less consequential for communications) of the waves that can propagate through them ( air doesn't have this problem ), hence wires have an upper limit of data that can be sent through them at a given time.

Enter the fiber glass wire. It has no known upper frequency limit at this time and likely it's very high.

But why do they call it "fiber glass optical wire"? Why optical?

Answer : lasers ( more or less ), or rather "very high frequency,concentrated beams of radiation". Radiation. Which,you guessed it, travels at the speed of ... radio waves! Correct! Radio waves like those used by wireless communications ( see how the circle closes here ), like those used by,say NASA?

In other words, no, fiber wire doesn't replace wireless communication. It complements it. Especially since there's a little thing like the "huge distances of the void of space" that prevents you from linking planet/ship A with ship/planet B via this "magical fiber".

Now that we've established that radio broadcasts are NOT obsolete today and will never be obsolete in the context of space travel due to radio waves travelling at the speed of light ( until faster-than-light speeds are discovered), let's move on to the Mass Effect universe.

Mass Effect has FTL comms.

http://masseffect.wi...odex/Technology

But, Bioware has done their homework.

"The networks connect across regions by communications lasers through the mass relays.
"

Translation :
1) FTL communication is just "fiber wire to the next level"
2) FTL communication is done between pairs of mass relays.

What does this mean?

This means that FTL communication is done between great distances, NOT, I repeat, NOT for communication within the same cluster .

In other words, if somebody on Earth wants to transmit a message to the Citade? FTL comms all the way. If somebody on Earth wants to communicate with somebody on Uranus? Good old fashion,light-speed radio waves.

Again, do NOTE : "Radio" waves! What your sattelite dish receives for your TV are radio waves ! What your wireless router manages are radio (or radiation if you're more comfortable) waves. The data transmitted is different from your grandfather's radio and the receiver ( your TV) is different from your grandfather's (his radio), BUT the mechanism which propagates the "data"(the channels tv or radio) is exactly the same . Radio waves. Mobile phones,sat dishes, your local radio station. Light-speed radio waves.

What does all this add up to?

It adds up to the fact that unless the Protheans could do FTL comms without mass relays, like FTL comms between two ships/planets, then the alternative is only one : They used light-speed radio waves. Light-speed radio waves comms between ships in the fleet,between planets and the fleets,between planets themselves in a system or cluster. And these radio comms would have not yet left the galaxy in 50,000 years since the galaxy is 100,000 light-years in diameter.

So, unless you say "Protheans could do FTL communication without mass relays", the echoes of Prothean extinction would still haunt the Milky Way.

Modifié par RaduM, 15 janvier 2011 - 11:44 .

[adam_grif]

RaduM wrote...

" The method used to destroy the planetoid has never been deduced. The clan who performed the experiment apparently all died in the event.
Ships that have traveled to the edge of the event's light cone observed a
moment of extreme gravitational lensing around Rothla immediately
before its break up, but no other clues.
"

Useless information unless you know when it happened. The Krogan Rebellions happened in the 700's C.E., and these ships could have observed this any time after then, from one day to one thousand years. Even if they did it circa 2185, that would imply the ability to observe planets (but obviously not with sufficient detail to work out what actually happened) 1485 years in the past, which is an order of magnitude more recent. If they can't get very good detail there, how are they supposed to get good detail 50,000 ly away? 

[Archontor]

you know that quantum entanglement device left no traceable emissions- the protheans most likely have thos, it's entirely possible that anything to do with the reapers would only be transmitted by them to prevent detection/monitoring

[Ulzeraj]

RaduM wrote...

I am sorry,but your post denotes a certain ignorance when it comes to science fact.

You seem to be confused about the terms "radio" and "broadcast".

1) "Radio" means "radiation" ( not that thing you use to tune in to music in your car ) and I clarified the context in my post. A "radio telescope" isn't used to study the latest Miley Cyrus hit. It is used to study the radiation emissions from distant stars.

I dont know what should I dedicate my facepalm... your attempt to make me look as ignorant or your definition of the term "radio". So you think our radio telescopes are equiped to detect just one range of spectrum or that we have only one telescope on the entire planet? Also SETI doesnt exist and the Arecibo is set to search only one kind of radi{o,ation} spectre?

Radio is the transmission of signals by modulation of electromagnetic waves with frequencies below those of visible light.[1] Electromagnetic radiation travels by means of oscillating electromagnetic fields that pass through the air and the vacuum of space. Information is carried by systematically changing (modulating) some property of the radiated waves, such as amplitude, frequency, phase, or pulse width. When radio waves pass an electrical conductor, the oscillating fields induce an alternating current in the conductor. This can be detected and transformed into sound or other signals that carry information.

The thing that allows you to hear Miley Cyrus on your car are eletromagnetic waves.



There is also the XKCD version (funny but not 100% serious)

2) "Broadcast". "Broadcasts" are still used, believe it or not, it's
not a term that describe.say, 1950's television/radio. In fact,all
wireless communication is broadcast. That's why Signal Intelligence is
such an important military branch for example.

I know they are used. I'm posting this through a 2400Mhz 802.11g network. However if I had cables I would have a full duplex 20x faster than this wifi network. If I had fiber optics it would be even more faster. I also wouldnt need to dedicate connection and hardware resources to use RSA in order to encode my transmissions and keep my neighbors from stealing mah internets.

2) "Broadcast". "Broadcasts" are still used, believe it or not, it's not a term that describe.say, 1950's television/radio. In fact,all wireless communication is broadcast. That's why Signal Intelligence is such an important military branch for example.

Cable and fiber optics link ground stations bypassing broadcast transmission. Within a few decades there will be
little to no high wattage broadcasts. And hey, its not depended on wire as you may think if you have powerful lasers to send information... alas there is a scientific paper (http://www.coseti.org/townes_0.htm) that defines such possibilities.

Think about it: if they used radio broadcasts our Seti project would have caught them on the Mass Effect universe years ago even before the first contact war. As I said, makes no sense.


Tip: if you are trying to make a point, you dont need to start your post attempting to flame the parent poster. You dont need that to prove you're right.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:27 .

[Dem_B]

How do you know where to look?
How do you know where the Citadel?
In space billions of stars, the citadel does not emit light.
Its dimensions are negligible on a cosmic scale.
Light from the shot is negligible compared with the light from the star.
Find Citadel by using a telescope is simply impossible.

[RaduM]

Ulzeraj wrote...

-- snip --

The reason why I avoided terms like "electromagnetic spectrum" and the like is to avoid the conversation to turn into a high-brow spectacle only the initiated would understand.

Yes, the XCKD comic strip is quite relevant to our discussion, it portrays the various waves adequately.

The point is, wonderous as cable fiber may be, it is very much cable. Can't exactly be used in deep space, now can it?

Now, you provide the example of wireless point-to-point communication achieved through lasers or any such concentrated source of EM radiation. The only problem with that is the same with light in general. Dispersion,absorbtion by space dust or atmospheric conditions, background light,etc. If somebody wants to jam your new connection, he merely has to, literally, throw dust in your receiver's face.

Even if you move the spectrum away from the visible light, it's not exactly Heaven's Garden. Move to ultraviolet and X-ray and so forth ? A star's emission will mess you up. Move towards microwaves? What's cooking doc?

The simple truth is that you can't have your cake and eat it too, not in engineering. You can't have the focused and private data stream you get using cables without the cables themselves. It is simply an engineering trade-off.

In deep space you use EM broadcasts, the distances are too great, the relative speeds between objects too high and the conditions of deep space to fickle for you to get away with pointing a laser to whoever you want to call.

Now,don't get me wrong, this plothole can be covered up with more science fiction, it's not a problem. Just that the original poster did raise a valid question, visible light or no visible light. Yes, it would be a bit naive to think the Prothean harvest would be witnessed like on TV, but the question regarding possible "echoes" rippling through the Milky Way is valid.

But now that I've dismantled your argument, let me offer a helping hand to your argument : There would be no Prothean transmissions rippling about because the Protheans used Beacons(Eden Prime? )  = FTL telepathy. So, technically, no, no traces of the Reaping. Although older broadcasts from the Prothean's industrial age could be swimming about.

Modifié par RaduM, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[redzin]

iOnlySignIn sent the following as a PM:

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Here's the answer to your question:
http://en.wikipedia....ular_resolution

The angular resolution of a massive telescope array of radius 10km, observing the Prothean extinction at hard X-ray wavelengths (~0.1nm) will have an angular resolution of

0.1nm/10km = 10^(-14)

Distance from Earth to Citadel ~ Galactic radius ~ 50,000 ly ~ 5*10^21m.

5*10^21m*10^(-14) = 5*10^7m = 50,000km, about the radius of Jupiter.

This means that at that distance, we cannot see anything smaller than the size of Jupiter, which Reapers are. We can see stars, only because they are far away enough from each other. We cannot distinguish between a single or a double star at that distance with 21st century technology because double stars are too close together. Not enough angular resolution.

This essentially means that it would be impossible to view anything from the Citadel from across 50k lightyears, unless they had a telescopic array with the radius of Earth... which I think would be impossible, even considering the technological advances of 200 years, etc.

There could still be other traces of the Reapers, or perhaps a completely new way to detect light from across great distances. In any case, it would only be possible with additional fictional technology.

I think we can conclude that it's not a plothole, though an interesting concept to explore. (Unlikely to happen in ME though )

Modifié par redzin, 16 janvier 2011 - 07:01 .