355 réponses à ce sujet

[JBaconBits]

Hmm, I wonder why can't I preorder Dead Space 2 on Steam? Can one of the Bioware guys pass it along to EA?



Thanks!

[Fernando Melo]

Extending this isn't really an option - sure, sounds simple but again there is a massive assumption being made that there are no implications with other partners or players who would cry foul or me too.  The reason for doing the SE as a pre-order was deliberate - the fact that some retailers were not part of it (whether it was steam or other retailers, but steam obviously being the largest) is unfortunate, but that time has passed.  That is completely independent of other products/discussions - thus, we were able to get the normal edition on steam. 

As for purposefully holding back - that too makes some gross assumptions that this behavior is directly beneficial in some manner because we also have a digital store, such as somehow we assumed everyone would just buy elsewhere and thus there is little or no loss from it, which is not the case.  If the intent was truly to walk away then why would we do the regular edition which over the lifetime of the product will sell many many more units?

Again, some of you may desire to rationalize this in some way - but if you actually seek truth you only need to look at how we operate with other partners.  For example, look at retail.  We have very deliberate incentives to encourage players to purchase a new box, yet we still value retail as partner and offer pre-order incentives.  The assumption that being a player in the marketplace is an all or nothing proposition is folly - the norm (not just us, but as an industry) is actually to both operate as a competitor and a partner. 

Lastly, if you look at the industry as a whole absolutely it is going digital - so maybe the day will come at some point in the future where the above could be rational.  For the moment (in the reality we all currently live in), that is not the case.  But I agree with some of you when you say that creating drama is much more exciting than reality - to each their own

F.

[Raygr]

Well it does suck I will say that. I'm not going to spout out drama though will admit i'm disappointed in how things went in the end. *Shrugs* I was trying to be patience and wait since there was no word on steam being excluded but in the end I regret it and wish I had picked up a physical copy while I could while the deal was going on.



Can't say i'm happy that i'm getting slapped with a $60 price tag for what could be considered a water down version of the game either but not much I can do other then wait for a sale to get the game at a fair price which includes buying the rest of the game later....I may be patience to wait sometime but i'll be damned if I completely skip out on this game.

[Beowulf28]

Ok if this wasn't deliberate then why are so many other big EA titles being withheld from Steam?

[sfcrafael]

I wonder... we all know the Sebastian DLC will be avaible to buy, but What about the SE and pre-order items? Will they be avaible later on?



This way at least Steam users would be able to get all content in the future, even if paying a bit more. ME2 has dlc for unique guns and armours, will DA2 follow the same path?

[Legbiter]

Got it.

[Cav829]

At the end of the day though the result is a significant percentage of the consumer base loses out because of whatever the situation was. And the rest is not changed. While it is nice that Steam users will have access to some pre-order DLC content, it is simply a portion of DLC content every other user is getting and it is not the much more expansive content of the Signature Edition that most users were interested in.



For instance, the argument of "we cannot offer the signature edition to Steam users because it might interfere with existing contracts" can be countered by saying "well why can't you offer Steam users $7store credit towards Bioware DLC so that they can choose to purchase the DLC." There are definitely ways to remedy the situation if the desire is there to make it happen. Not to say that's the solution, but there is a superior solution to nothing.



While the drama is certainly out of hand the reality if probably far less grandiose than being depicted, it does not change the situation. Not that this is to suggest vast international conspiracies or anything of the such, but what the consumer cares about is the end-result, which is Steam users lost out and nothing will be done to remedy it, and less so what led up to that as that just confuses the issue when it is an irelevent factor.

[Bryy_Miller]

Inarborat wrote...

I can't believe one of the pre-order bonuses is a freaking store.  That's all you guys could think of?  Oh come on....

Yes. A store. Full of stuff you would not get otherwise. 

[JBaconBits]

As for purposefully holding back - that too makes some gross assumptions that this behavior is directly beneficial in some manner because we also have a digital store, such as somehow we assumed everyone would just buy elsewhere and thus there is little or no loss from it, which is not the case.  If the intent was truly to walk away then why would we do the regular edition which over the lifetime of the product will sell many many more units?

Offering day one DLC with a time limit allows you to ensure a ton of early adopter sales. Limiting that promo to certain stores let's you make sure those sales are not on a competing service EA deems a threat. 

Fairly simple concept, further proven by the lack of other high profile EA games available for preorder on Steam.

[Meltemph]

Fernando Melo wrote...

Extending this isn't really an option - sure, sounds simple but again there is a massive assumption being made that there are no implications with other partners or players who would cry foul or me too.  The reason for doing the SE as a pre-order was deliberate - the fact that some retailers were not part of it (whether it was steam or other retailers, but steam obviously being the largest) is unfortunate, but that time has passed.  That is completely independent of other products/discussions - thus, we were able to get the normal edition on steam. 

As for purposefully holding back - that too makes some gross assumptions that this behavior is directly beneficial in some manner because we also have a digital store, such as somehow we assumed everyone would just buy elsewhere and thus there is little or no loss from it, which is not the case.  If the intent was truly to walk away then why would we do the regular edition which over the lifetime of the product will sell many many more units?

Again, some of you may desire to rationalize this in some way - but if you actually seek truth you only need to look at how we operate with other partners.  For example, look at retail.  We have very deliberate incentives to encourage players to purchase a new box, yet we still value retail as partner and offer pre-order incentives.  The assumption that being a player in the marketplace is an all or nothing proposition is folly - the norm (not just us, but as an industry) is actually to both operate as a competitor and a partner. 

Lastly, if you look at the industry as a whole absolutely it is going digital - so maybe the day will come at some point in the future where the above could be rational.  For the moment (in the reality we all currently live in), that is not the case.  But I agree with some of you when you say that creating drama is much more exciting than reality - to each their own

F.

But EA held out its games from steam till 2008, I would assume there was a reason for that... I really don't get the idea that it does not make sense, since they saw it before as competition.  

Even though steam was not as big as it is now, it still had a rather large fanbase. Also, not releasing SA for steam, but releasing the regular version, would actually makes sense, because it lets you incentivize purchasse from other distributors(and DD through EA) and at the same time keep the biggest selling version on steam since they have the biggest user base.

At least me personally I never talked about walking away, that would be stupid(incredibly so), considering how big of a market steam holds on DD, but that doesn't mean incentivizing to different vendors would be a stupid decision.  The simple fact that it did not go to steam would suggest it either way; you incentivized away from steam, purposely or not.  I mean, we are not talking about "other retailers" we are talking about the biggest DDer.  

Whether it was intentional or not, I don't see how completely righting it off as something that wouldn't make sense, is the case.  Why would it not make sense? 

As for looking at retail.  Well I would assume you would look at retail and deal with it differently then you would DD specially considering the differences between the 2.  And again we are not talking about just any partner we are talking about the biggest one that was called out by multiple retailers last year, specifically by addressing the publishers that use steam, so I don't think going strictly by retail dealings is a 1 to 1.  

At the end of it all, ok, you did not purposely leave Steam out of the deal, but you did leave them out of it either way, so either way it happened.  I just don't see why you would think it wouldn't make sense to hold bigger pre-order incentives for retail and your own DD, on purpose, specially when, the majority of the sales will come from the regular edition anyway(since even if it was not intentional the same results happened).

[menyu]

That answer is unsatisfactory, as a consumer of a big retailer that has very nicely filled my needs, I don't care about the other retailers beyond the fact that Steam doesn't get monopoly of the online pie that seems to be making people from Bioware/EA to commit lackluster decisions.



I want the SE on Steam or I don't want it at all. I can easily wait for an ultimate version in a few months that I'll pay significantly less than I'd be willing to pay right now.



Cav829 came up with a very sound compromise, I'd suggest reading it, this is a very bad decision in both sales and more importantly, reputation.



Please do not take us for fools.

[Meltemph]

That answer is unsatisfactory, as a consumer of a big retailer that has very nicely filled my needs, I don't care about the other retailers beyond the fact that Steam doesn't get monopoly of the online pie that seems to be making people from Bioware/EA to commit lackluster decisions.



I want the SE on Steam or I don't want it at all. I can easily wait for an ultimate version in a few months that I'll pay significantly less than I'd be willing to pay right now.



Cav829 came up with a very sound compromise, I'd suggest reading it, this is a very bad decision in both sales and more importantly, reputation.

A very small % will look at this near as serious/drastic as you are. Yes, there are people who wanted to get SA DA2 through steam, but I don't think them not going through steam for this specific deal, will hurt their reputation or much of anything else really, except the people who only use steam.

Besides Fernando makes a very good point, they couldn't extend this w/o pissing off a lot of other retailers.

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:06 .

[Shkoot]

A fair post Fernando, but you should be aware that many people, including myself, expect to be treated fairly regardless of the platform we play on. Whether it is EA's, or Bioware's, or Valve's fault is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that this time around we are all paying $10 more than we paid for the original, and yet are unable to receive all the benefits that other distribution services have offered. Being totally honest, DA: II's life thus far hasn't been top notch and many people are not as optimistic for this game as they could be.



Furthermore, 2011 is literally saturated with big releases and promising new IPs. It's the year of the consumer. Quite honestly, with this in mind, pleasing the Steam crowd should have been the top priority in regards to this preorder special, and someone somewhere dropped the ball.



I want to preorder Dragon Age 2. I want to have it day one and get lost in Ferelden all over again. But, you're not making it easy for me to make that decision. If this deal is unable to return to Steam for an extension, then it should be free DLC the first week for Steam owners. People are still buying the game either before or just after the game is released, and are still receiving the benefits most are entitled to.



If there is no extra benefit coming to the Steam platform in line with the Signature Edition bonus so many others were given the option of, then I am afraid I am passing on Dragon Age 2 until it goes on sale on Steam. Seeing as many others have already stated they intend to do the same, or even wait for the sure-to-come Ultimate Edition, trying to appease the Steam owners with some sort of free DLC is likely to be a better financial option than simply leaving us in the dark.



Looking forward to Mass Effect 3 though,

Skooty

[Meltemph]

A fair post Fernando, but you should be aware that many people, including myself, expect to be treated fairly regardless of the platform we play on. Whether it is EA's, or Bioware's, or Valve's fault is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that this time around we are all paying $10 more than we paid for the original, and yet are unable to receive all the benefits that other distribution services have offered. Being totally honest, DA: II's life thus far hasn't been top notch and many people are not as optimistic for this game as they could be.

Why do so many insist on speaking for "everyone else"... Specially since it is incredibly anectdotal. Also, there is nothing wrong with companies giving incentives to other retailers but not others, it quite literally happens all the time and is standard.

Furthermore, 2011 is literally saturated with big releases and promising new IPs. It's the year of the consumer. Quite honestly, with this in mind, pleasing the Steam crowd should have been the top priority in regards to this preorder special, and someone somewhere dropped the ball.

Subjective, perspective, and assumptions, that steam should be top priority.

I want to preorder Dragon Age 2. I want to have it day one and get lost in Ferelden all over again. But, you're not making it easy for me to make that decision. If this deal is unable to return to Steam for an extension, then it should be free DLC the first week for Steam owners. People are still buying the game either before or just after the game is released, and are still receiving the benefits most are entitled to.

No one is entitled to any product or any deals with-in the market. Developers/publishers do not owe people who specifically shop at a specific retailer anything. Also, DA2 is not in Ferelden.

If there is no extra benefit coming to the Steam platform in line with the Signature Edition bonus so many others were given the option of, then I am afraid I am passing on Dragon Age 2 until it goes on sale on Steam.

Which is a smart thing if you don't think the game is worth the purchase w/o the DLC.

Seeing as many others have already stated they intend to do the same, or even wait for the sure-to-come Ultimate Edition, trying to appease the Steam owners with some sort of free DLC is likely to be a better financial option than simply leaving us in the dark.

The forums is not a place to get a majority or use them as an example of much of anything, really.

[Thunderfox]

Given that it is already number one in sales after a day, I'm betting EA doesn't really care about you people and your waiting

Fallen down to second since I last looked

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

......you have got to be kidding me.

It shows up on Steam now? I mean, I accepted that I lost out on content due to my preference of retailer, and I was certainly gung ho about purchasing once the game did show up but to have it pop up on Steam the very day after the deal ends is a bit.....disconcerting, to put it nicely.

I'll keep my thoughts on the conspiracy theories to myself, I suppose, but I can't help but feel a bit.....disappointed? Don't get me wrong, I'm very appreciative that a version of the game is available on Steam at all and this does little to change my thoughts on purchasing. It's just that I had hoped for a bit more from you guys at Bioware. I completely understand that "a bit more" may not have been possible in this instance and for that, I'm truly sorry as it puts you fine folks in an awkward position. But this move, whether intentional or not, is incredibly unfortunate and makes me just a tad wary.


However, what's done is done, I suppose. Intent, whether nefarious or not, matters little now. I'm glad at least one version made it to Steam. And since all this fancy content comes with a new edition, rather than a pre-order, I don't feel pressured to buy when uninformed and I can wait for a bit more info before making a purchasing decision.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[Fernando Melo]

All fair comments and opinions - it doesn't change the present status.

It may be we're arguing opposite points for naught, or that these are being considered and things are already afoot, or maybe nothing will happen and you will continue to feel that somehow this was purposeful on our part to simply ignore you for some reason - I don't pretend to predict the future, nor that I have any direct control over it.  

I can only offer some perspective to contrast some the thinking on this thread of how the past led us up to this point - how you choose to react to that and whether you wish to assign blame, as always, is entirely up to you.

F.

[nabokovfan87]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Given that it is already number one in sales after a day, I'm betting EA doesn't really care about you people and your waiting

Fallen down to second since I last looked

Number one for 1 day means people bought it, number 1 for a week/month, means it is selling well.

[Meltemph]

this was purposeful on our part to simply ignore you for some reason

I don't feel that way at all, and don't really know why others do. Nothing wrong with giving incentives to retailers and nothing wrong with not giving the same incentives to every retailer. Not like you guys make people only go through 1 retailer, you gave us options, just not every option(which is normal).

[thethain]

Honestly this makes me sick to my stomach a little bit. I have been a HUGE bioware fan for a long time. But the assertion that the deal was made the day after it was too late for signature edition is just too coincidental. I have every bioware game on PC since Baulders Gate including all xpacs. And since they have been available on steam I have purchased there, it provides the best user experience, no cds to lose, and can redownload whenever I need to.



I would be happy if it was just stated "We decided it was not in our best interest to allow this on steam" Or even the try to blame them on it "Steam did not meet our obligations for signature edition" but to say it was just happenstance and it has no way shape or form deliberate is silly.



You have a big giant corporation with billions in assets and lawyers. If EA/Bioware Heads wanted steam to have signature edition available, it would. End of story.



So as a customer I was given the option of buying a physical copy, with all the inherit drawbacks. Or signing up for a new digital platform for ONE game, to have to install extra overhead programs and remember a new password all for this one particular game, while every other PC purchase has been handled via steam.



Now go ahead and lock this post and suspend this account. I'll just wait and pick up DA2 on sale in a few years, this whole fiasco really has made me lose a lot of interest in it.

[Dendens]

I love how melodramatic everyone is.

[Kentor]

Fernando, as reasonable as I'd like to say your argument sounds, I think you're missing something here. It's not really about whether or not there was some grand conspiracy or not, rather far from it. People, your customers are upset, and I think you'll find that even if you did convince everyone that things did occur exactly as you imply, your customers would still be upset.

For all the rationalizations, both outlandish or reasonable, Bioware's customers feel slighted. They feel as though Bioware is being a bit too greedy, but they can't exactly place where that feeling comes from. I think that a lot of people here feel like they are being cheated, and that feeling came well before any logical argument of Bioware's intentions with the lack of Steam SE. It's easy to shrug this off, and say, "Hey, their reasoning isn't sound, so their concerns shouldn't be taken seriously", but that's a mistake.

If we're going to be brutally honest here, the primary economic reasons why you have DLC, pre-order bonuses, and retail specific offers is to capture as much consumer surplus as possible via market segmentation, dampen the effect of piracy, which can be seen as special case of market segmentation, and capture profits as soon as possible because latter purchases will have a lower net present value. Theatres have cheap matinees, Juice companies offer $1 off coupons, airlines have economy and business class, cellphones have premium models, processor companies offer different clock speeds regardless of die yields, and game companies have pre-order bonuses.

When you get right down to it, the Special Edition is penny pinching in a very literal sense. Instead of picking the optimal intersection of supply and demand, you're trying to increase profits by capturing those who are willing to pay more via DLC and premium editions, and those who are only willing to pay less by offering lower price options. For the most part, we're fine with that. You're offering something extra we want and we're willing to pay more for it. Well, it would be fine, but it's a very dangerous line to walk.

Airlines found out the hard way that market segmentation might sound great, but it can horribly backfire if you aren't careful. Making your consumer feel as though they were screwed is the easiest way to erode customer loyalty and worse, trust. In the example of airlines, they over segmented their population and intentionally made their prices obscure to attempt to squeeze as much surplus out of the market as possible. It's like asking a car dealer how much that red sedan over in the corner is and hearing back, "Well, how much do you got?" Same principle. Worse still airlines charge a premium rather than discounting, which further reinforces the notion that they're trying to rip you off.

There's a spectrum of segmentation that ranges from very simple concrete segmentation like 3 models of iPhones, all the way to cars with a billion options, prices, and features. Getting back to games, you're not Apple showing us a handful of cellphones separated by storage size. You're that car salesman and we're asking you how much that red sedan in the corner costs. You're telling us there's these features on this model and that model, different versions we can get, some special trim and seat materials we can get, but only at your sister dealership down the road and more. Can you feel some of that customer trust slowly crumbling away?

I'm sure some business folks out there are laughing it up with the assumption that games are relatively inelastic at the high end, after all you can't get Dragon Age made by Valve, but that's not entirely true. Movies are at the point now that the market can only sustain a few blockbusters a season and there's always a few prominent well made films that end up taking in a relative pittance. Bioware is great and all, but there's a lot of very good studios out there making just as great games. My wallet, like many wallets, is not infinite.

What you should take away from people being angry about the special edition is not that your customers are illogical retards. What you should take away is that you're doing something wrong and have eroded trust enough that your core proponents will be angry at the drop of a hat. That should be something you're a bit uncomfortable with.

Modifié par Kentor, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:48 .