112 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Overlord is a during-ME2 DLC mission. It wasn't a 'bridging' DLC which could/was intended to be played after the Suicide Mission (like LotSB).

Retribution is about a year after ME2, which puts it about a year and an indeterminate amount of time after Overlord.

Fair enough, but we also don't (correct me if I am wrong) know what facilities were raided and what people were taken in that could easily be/lead to Overlord. We only know TIM's research station with Grayson was raided.

[RetrOldSchool]

I have to say that overall I enjoyed Overlord even more than LotSB (and that being said I loved LotSB).



I think the reason is that Overlord really brought me back to the best parts of ME1, but with the superior ME2 combat. Yes, the Hammerhead combat is pretty lame, but still the whole feeling of the DLC was truly epic and the atmosphere brilliant.



The story played out like a sci-fi/horror movie, great atmosphere!

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Overlord is a during-ME2 DLC mission. It wasn't a 'bridging' DLC which could/was intended to be played after the Suicide Mission (like LotSB).

Retribution is about a year after ME2, which puts it about a year and an indeterminate amount of time after Overlord.

Fair enough, but we also don't (correct me if I am wrong) know what facilities were raided and what people were taken in that could easily be/lead to Overlord. We only know TIM's research station with Grayson was raided.

Are you really going to take a stand that a potentially plot-relevant Cerberus operation decision is going to be undermined and mitigated on the part of a side-story that may or may not even occur in any universe in which Anderson was chosen as Councilor in the first place?

Really?

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Overlord is a during-ME2 DLC mission. It wasn't a 'bridging' DLC which could/was intended to be played after the Suicide Mission (like LotSB).

Retribution is about a year after ME2, which puts it about a year and an indeterminate amount of time after Overlord.

Fair enough, but we also don't (correct me if I am wrong) know what facilities were raided and what people were taken in that could easily be/lead to Overlord. We only know TIM's research station with Grayson was raided.

Are you really going to take a stand that a potentially plot-relevant Cerberus operation decision is going to be undermined and mitigated on the part of a side-story that may or may not even occur in any universe in which Anderson was chosen as Councilor in the first place?

Really?

So your suggesting that the decision for David to stay wouldn't work if Overlord was raided? First off, they could easily get the data off world and you still have a HUGE improvement. Second of all, its not the first time decisions don't matter. Remember Anderson leaves politics regardless of whether he is councilor or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

The importance isn't the data: Cerberus keeps that regardless. The importance is David himself. If Overlord was raided by the overwhelming Turian strikeforces, and David is taken away/killed, it's exactly the same end-result as if Shepard took David away himself.

For literary/continuity reasons alone, Bioware is not going to indulge that sort of retcon of player choices when they both have no need to and never have before.


Dionkey, Retribution, by Drew's own admission, was written on a presumption that Udina was chosen as Councilor in the first place. No Mass Effect media has ever claimed, suggested, or implied that Councilor Anderson has ever stepped down from that position.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 janvier 2011 - 12:43 .

[Sandbox47]

I loved it as well, but they should have given the squad memebers some dialogues as well, and not just body dragging, though that was interesting.

That's really my only criticism.

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The importance isn't the data: Cerberus keeps that regardless. The importance is David himself. If Overlord was raided by the overwhelming Turian strikeforces, and David is taken away/killed, it's exactly the same end-result as if Shepard took David away himself.

For literary/continuity reasons alone, Bioware is not going to indulge that sort of retcon of player choices when they both have no need to and never have before.


Dionkey, Retribution, by Drew's own admission, was written on a presumption that Udina was chosen as Councilor in the first place. No Mass Effect media has ever claimed, suggested, or implied that Councilor Anderson has ever stepped down from that position.

The events from the book would be so dramtically changed if he didn't step down that they would literally have to write another version. While the choices may have been renegade, BW was pretty clear that it was acceptable for either playthrough minus small events here and there. Also David is no importance after they have sufficent data. Also you have to factor in they are using Legion if you hand him to cerberus. They don't need david to control the geth, they just needed him to be a mount for their program.

[didymos1120]

Dionkey wrote...
We only know TIM's research station with Grayson was raided.

Uh, what?  No.  The book was clear: there was a simultaneous raid on a ton of Cerberus facilities.

[Dionkey]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
We only know TIM's research station with Grayson was raided.

Uh, what?  No.  The book was clear: there was a simultaneous raid on a ton of Cerberus facilities.

Yeah I know, I meant that his station was the only raid that went into detail.

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed, it would have been dramatically changed. So what? Names change, events change, contexts change, but that's the nature of a 'shape your own adventure' story.

It doesn't change Drew's position that Councilor Anderson couldn't/wouldn't have stepped down to go joy-fighting across the galaxy, and the fact that Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was always Councilor. Again, there remains no Mass Effect media basis for the claim that Councilor Anderson steps down/quits/is fired as Councilor.


Dionkey, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Cerberus would get 'sufficent' data in the year between ME2 and Retribution. David is necessary to be the program mount and make progress, and the very context of his choice asserts that if you keep him there, it's going to be a life-long proposition for him.

You have yet to provide any suggestion that Overlord would be a targeted project, and in light of Bioware's emphasis on continuity between games and the story reasons for NOT undermining player choices in side-media that have consistently only been briefly referenced in the games, the burden lies on you to give compelling reason why Overlord would be an exception to established policy and be directly affected by Retribution.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[adam_grif]

I don't read any EU stuff (didn't even read the free comic that came with my ME2 special edition). Can someone summarize the events that might be "important" to ME3?

[Dean_the_Young]

Admiral Anderson works with Turians to take down a lot of Cerberus cells/projects, and exposing a lot of Cerberus infiltration of the Alliance. Political sh*tstorm erupts, political ramifications could affect/shape tone of early ME3.



Admiral Anderson quits Alliance.



Cerberus gets hit by a body blow, is not taken out, gains and keeps valuable Reaper research data. Justifies reduced prominence in ME3 due to effort to rebuilding, role more dependent on your ME2 decision.



Alliance finally starts studying how to counter Reapers in a concentrated effort by dissecting the corpse of a minor character who was turned into a Reaper Avatar by Cerberus.

[Zeke01231]

Did anyone take Legion along ??? wondering if he at least had SOME dialogue.

[Spartas Husky]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Admiral Anderson works with Turians to take down a lot of Cerberus cells/projects, and exposing a lot of Cerberus infiltration of the Alliance. Political sh*tstorm erupts, political ramifications could affect/shape tone of early ME3.

Admiral Anderson quits Alliance.

Cerberus gets hit by a body blow, is not taken out, gains and keeps valuable Reaper research data. Justifies reduced prominence in ME3 due to effort to rebuilding, role more dependent on your ME2 decision.

Alliance finally starts studying how to counter Reapers in a concentrated effort by dissecting the corpse of a minor character who was turned into a Reaper Avatar by Cerberus.

honestly I hope everyone still remains a witless idiot. Nothing would satisfy me more than to FORCE the citadel into cooperating by simultaniously deploying my allies to every major homewolrd and holding it hostage unless they heed my warnings. Is not fun when they say "yes we were wrong". is fun when you force them to do what they need to do to survive.... ugh so excited hopefully there is a renegade style like that.

Rachini, geth, quarian ships unloading rachi and krogan onto every major homeworld.... god nothing would satisfy me more than to be Soeverign and destroy half the at the time ctiadel defesne fleet and f*&%&*56ing smack the council in the face.

sigh one can dream, one can dream

Zeke01231 wrote...

Did anyone take Legion along ??? wondering if he at least had SOME dialogue.

and no nobody has dialogue in it... not that I remember really.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[cachx]

bjdbwea wrote...
...exploration part still felt too much like a
conveniently designed level for a video game ...

And that is why is so vastly superior to the regular Mako ****-fest. Too bad the didn't iron out the other glaring Hammerhead blunders (light armor, boring combat, lack of savegame), if they would have bothered with it, the DLC could have gone from "good" to "amazing".

Zeke01231 wrote...
Did anyone take Legion along ??? wondering if he at least had SOME dialogue.

Archer makes a off-hand remark about him if he's present, and Shep responds. 2 or 3 extra lines. Legion himself doesn't say anything though...

[UpDownLeftRight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I found it depressing that the end-game choice really amounted to 'Keep the poor boy in, or take him out in the knowledge that Cerberus will just try to do the same thing to plenty of other autistic kids until they finally find someone else compatible.'

There's a lot more bodies going to suffer. Does anyone really think that Cerberus would quit in the face of difficulty when David proved what was possible? Even the post-mission TIM email doesn't give any sign that they were shutting down the project, only that you set them back by decades. And who wants to guess what those decades will include and be filled with?

But it isn't all about Cerberus and/or David. It is also about enslaving one species(Geth) for the sake of another(Humanity).

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:12 .

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Indeed, it would have been dramatically changed. So what? Names change, events change, contexts change, but that's the nature of a 'shape your own adventure' story.

It doesn't change Drew's position that Councilor Anderson couldn't/wouldn't have stepped down to go joy-fighting across the galaxy, and the fact that Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was always Councilor. Again, there remains no Mass Effect media basis for the claim that Councilor Anderson steps down/quits/is fired as Councilor.


Dionkey, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Cerberus would get 'sufficent' data in the year between ME2 and Retribution. David is necessary to be the program mount and make progress, and the very context of his choice asserts that if you keep him there, it's going to be a life-long proposition for him.

You have yet to provide any suggestion that Overlord would be a targeted project, and in light of Bioware's emphasis on continuity between games and the story reasons for NOT undermining player choices in side-media that have consistently only been briefly referenced in the games, the burden lies on you to give compelling reason why Overlord would be an exception to established policy and be directly affected by Retribution.

 

Sorry for the long wait on reply, I have been in exam practice all day. Anyway, I am not really sure what you mean by the shape your own adventure part. Are you saying that they SHOULD make another book for paragons or they should just deal with it?

Also the reason why we can safely assume this is for the fact a massive part of the plot would be missing. Are you saying Udina is going to run around the galaxy instead of Anderson? The work he is doing after retribution would leave no time for citadel political BS.

David maybe a life long project, that doesn't mean he is being used his whole life for the single goal. The geth quarian war is about to burst in the coming months and Cerberus knows this, they aren't going to take 50 years to study david. Archer even said they made MASSIVE breakthroughs while he was active.

For the record, I never stated Overlord IS a targeted project, it is very possible though. BW can easily say that they gained sufficent data for the year while he was being tested on. It wouldn't work in real life but neither would mass relays or elbowing a mech to death.

[Dean_the_Young]

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

But it isn't all about Cerberus and/or David. It is also about enslaving one species(Geth) for the sake of another(Humanity).

I assume you also didn't use the Heretic virus?

Regardless, for 99% of the franchies, and even longer in terms of Galactic History, the Geth have not been a species in which normal relations have been possible or not. Regardless of whether you feel their initial uprising was justified, they went on to genocide over 99.9% of the Quarian race, the survivors living not because the Geth felt guilty or that they were wrong, but because the Flotilla managed to escape.

The Geth then, for the next 300 years, maintained a quiet war against the Quarians, uniformly killed all organic ambassadors or attempts to establish any sort of diplomatic relations.

And then, not two years ago, Geth launched an unprovoked invasion of Human space, a species with which it had no contact or quarrel with, and attempted to genocide not only humanity, but all organic life in the galaxy as well, allying themselves firmly with the Reapers and with no hint or indication otherwise. In ME2, the Geth continue a dying war, even attempting to destroy an entire colony. And, again, with not one envoy or message to organic species communicating anything else.



It is not for the eleventh-and-a-half hour, near the very end of the war against the Collectors, that there emerges any sign of anything else. One Geth platform, which makes claims that can not be verified, which few people know about, let alone have heard speak.

And that's well after Project Overlord started and had it's little disaster.


Until you have Legion and trust what he says, the Geth are not a race of equal sentients. They are a race that has chosen to try and kill all organics, humans included, and worship a race of genocidal super-AI. Subjugating them is not a moral crime: letting them kill people when you could stop them is a moral crime. 

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:48 .

[darknoon5]

I actually am tempted to keep project Overlord going, just in case the reapers find a way to brainwash the geth, but I trust Legion (and the codex.), and David deserves better. Plus, it's importance in ME3 probably won't be that significant.
I found it very moving, personally. Up there with LoTSB as my favourite DLC story and character wise, but the actual gameplay isn't on the same level as LoTSB

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Sorry for the long wait on reply, I have been in exam practice all day. Anyway, I am not really sure what you mean by the shape your own adventure part. Are you saying that they SHOULD make another book for paragons or they should just deal with it?

Shape your own adventure, of course, refers to the ability to shape Commander Shepard's words and actions.

Ideally, ME3 will include it's own 'book summary' purchase, just as ME2 did, with a 'canonical' summary, as well as in-game references.

Otherwise, yes. People who chose Anderson (not necessarily Paragons) should come to terms that the expanded universe did not retcon their decisions. One would think they should be happy at that.

Also the reason why we can safely assume this is for the fact a massive part of the plot would be missing. Are you saying Udina is going to run around the galaxy instead of Anderson? The work he is doing after retribution would leave no time for citadel political BS.

No, I am not saying Udina would run around the galaxy instead of Anderson (though LotSB shows that he does a little of that regardless).

David maybe a life long project, that doesn't mean he is being used his whole life for the single goal. The geth quarian war is about to burst in the coming months and Cerberus knows this, they aren't going to take 50 years to study david. Archer even said they made MASSIVE breakthroughs while he was active.

Archer said they made significant breakthroughs, but he also said it was a life-time fate for his brother. While he said progress was likely, if not guaranteed, he never said or implied results were imminent.

The Quarian/Geth conflict will not be in months. It will be in years, when ME3 takes place. Years also gives a fitting thematic production of results for Overlord, along with most other 'medium-term issues' Shepard can resolve.

For the record, I never stated Overlord IS a targeted project, it is very possible though. BW can easily say that they gained sufficent data for the year while he was being tested on. It wouldn't work in real life but neither would mass relays or elbowing a mech to death.

From a continuity, thematic, and literary viewpoint, is is not very possible, and incredibly unlikely. ****ting on continuity for no reason is a general no-no for writing standards.

[Dionkey]

It wouldn't be the first time they **** on writing.

[Dean_the_Young]

In general? No. In violation of their own continuity? Up to now in Mass Effect, the only errors in continuity were the result of bugs in the import, not outright subversion.

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Geth then, for the next 300 years, maintained a quiet war against the Quarians, uniformly killed all organic ambassadors or attempts to establish any sort of diplomatic relations.

OK, where are you getting that bolded part from?

[Dean_the_Young]

Tali and Legion, who refer to the fact that conflicts between Geth and Quarians have happened in the interim period. Were those conflicts usually instigated by Quarians? Maybe, even likely (the 'in our experience, Quarians have always tried to attack when they think they can win', mixed with codex entries about the Quarians and references to constant competition with the Geth). But the Geth never once have responded to, or sent out, a peace delegation of any sort.

[lovgreno]

Zeke01231 wrote...

Did anyone take Legion along ??? wondering if he at least had SOME dialogue.

Davids brother questions if it was realy smart to bring a geth to bases infested with hacked geth. That is a very good point actualy. Legion himself however, stays as mute as everyone else who is not Shepard.