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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Architects ultimate goal is peace between the surface races and Darkspawn. Granted his previous plan (the one from The Calling) wasn't his most thought through plan, but that plan has since been abbandoned, it seems. Now he seeks enlightenment for his entire race, so that his race at least get a choice when it comes to a Blight. And for every Darkspawn who makes the choice, not to go to the surface during a Blight, will be one less for us to eventually kill. And them having gained a brain will not neccesarily make them more dangerous, since with a brain they also get a self-preservation instinct, which will make them a whole lot easer to face on the battlefield.

[IanPolaris]

The Withered and First beg to differ. The awakening does nothing to take away the aggressive, parasitic, and predatory nature of the Darkspawn. It does take away the ONE saving grace the surface races have: Darkspawn without a leader (Archdemon) are dumb and thus can be dealt with (with varying success) and we know that Thedas only has two blights left.



The Architect would replace two blights with continunal warefar with Intelligent Darkspawn (and Intelligence on a predatory creature always makes it more dangerous) that is more aggressive and can out breed all other races by literally thousands to one.....



So this is a good idea WHY???



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:51 .

[sleepingbelow]

Being smarter might not make the darkspawn a greater threat. The darkspawn using clever small unit tactics was only scary because, at that point, Fereldan wasn't in the middle of a blight. When an archdemon awakes, it is able to mold the darkspawn into a cohesive military force with lieutenants, generals, and squad leaders. We got that vibe in the siege of Denerim in both the cannon game and in Darkspawn Chronicles. As it stands, during a Blight, you've got a scary military force that is able to mobilize a total war effort. They're certainly plenty tricky; DA:O is filled with trap filled ambushes and surprise attacks.

If you let the Architect try his little song and dance, the Darkspawn might go away. A bunch of folks have the knee jerk reaction and scream, "Impossible!" Or, "Darkspawn will always trouble Thedas because they need mortals to exist!" Well, maybe, but not definitely. The Architect certainly seems to present a case for the possibility of a permanent retreat. Alternatively, if they do become intelligent, at the very least they won't be responding to any archdemons, which means they no longer have a force that can unify them into a total war front. So, you're either getting peace or a less organized invasion. From that perspective, good deal.

This is assuming the Architect doesn't have anymore "lab accidents" involving Old Gods. Or need more any more test subjects. Or is lying. Not to mention, the whole Grey Warden system has been sort of working so far. I mean, it has its drawbacks, but hey. That last blight (numero cinco) was solved pretty quickly by wardens that weren't exactly working with many resources. Something to be said for tried and true, ol' blue. We just need to do that like, two more times...

Unless, of course, everybody, including the Chantry, is wrong. Archdemons are *not* Old Gods. What if they're just powerful, corrupted dragons. The history books certainly would look poorly on the Warden that had the chance to break the cycle but didn't... around the time when an eighth or ninth Archdemon arose.

There are a whole mess of what ifs. At the end of the day, I'll chose the one that is in keeping with the personality I've written for the Warden I'm playing at the time.

[IanPolaris]

We know for a fact that the Archdemons aren't merely High Dragons. At the end of DAA (and during WH) you run into Corrupted High Dragons and they are most certainly not Archdemons.



I am willing to believe that the Old Gods are a special Sub-Set of High Dragons, but we know from game lore that not any garden variety high dragon becomes an archdemon when corrupted.



-Polaris

[sleepingbelow]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Withered and First beg to differ. The awakening does nothing to take away the aggressive, parasitic, and predatory nature of the Darkspawn. It does take away the ONE saving grace the surface races have: Darkspawn without a leader (Archdemon) are dumb and thus can be dealt with (with varying success) and we know that Thedas only has two blights left.

We THINK there are two Blights left.  Because the Chantry says so.  Because we associate archdemons with Old Gods (even Morrigan does).  But who knows?  Because darkspawn don't talk (well, not if you kill off the Architect), a lot of it is guess work based off of the dreams of the senior Grey Wardens, which is wrapped up in their own folklore.  Who's to say the dragons the darkspawn find aren't, well, old dragons?

Also, dwarves might beg to differ that the "darkspawn can be dealt with".

EDIT-- Or yeah, a sub set.  Archdemons may not be just high dragons... but we don't exactly know anything for a fact.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The High Dragon in the Dragon Wastes isn't corrupted. And when do you face a Dragon in WH? You face a Strider, but that most likely only got "dragon" slapped on it for gameplay mechanics' sake. And that one certainly isn't corrupted either anyway.

Matter of fact about Blights are, we know only that the Darkspawn "erupts" from underground, and are lead by what appears to be some sort of Dragon. That is all we actually know about Blights. The Chantry then goes ahead and tells us that these Archdemons are the Old Gods of the Tevinter, which we have no way of proving or disclaiming.



And about the intellegence. Intellegence may make a predator more dangerous, but it can certainly also make the predator docile.

[sleepingbelow]

I was just thinking about it... I'm not sure that I would agree that aphorism, that intelligence makes a predator more dangerous. Intelligent predators react to superior numbers and retreat, recognize prey that is capable of defending itself, don't gorge themselves and wipe out the food supply.

EDIT-  Aaaaand upon thinking about it for another minute, that sort of has even worse connotations, doesn't it?

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:30 .

[IanPolaris]

sleepingbelow wrote...

I was just thinking about it... I'm not sure that I would agree that aphorism, that intelligence makes a predator more dangerous. Intelligent predators react to superior numbers and retreat, recognize prey that is capable of defending itself, don't gorge themselves and wipe out the food supply.

12 billion humans beg to differ.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Are you calling humans capable predators?... How many of us can right now honestly call ourselves a competent hunter?

[sleepingbelow]

Ooookay, getting a little off topic, but first off the world population isn't that high.(http://www.un.org/es.../Newsltr_87.pdf)
And yes, water scarcity and food shortages are a problem... that food scientists, farmers and ranchers, and environmentalists react to and try to solve. And if you're talking about... I don't know, not recognizing threats... man, I can't believe you're steering this conversation here... we haven't used nukes on a global scale. Yet, anyway. So. That still doesn't make sense.
Man, Polaris, what are you doing?

EDIT-- "we haven't used nukes on a global scale." because, I mean... we're scared that other people will, too.  So we have that capability.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:48 .

[sleepingbelow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Are you calling humans capable predators?... How many of us can right now honestly call ourselves a competent hunter?

That, too.

[IanPolaris]

My point is not restricted to humans. Apes (which are very smart) have been known to eat themselves out of habitat on occasion. Also anyone that's handled Apes will tell you that their very cunning often makes them very dangerous to handle. In fact that's generally true. The smarter the animal, the less 'trainable' it tends to be (although the amount of training it can take if you manage increases).

To continue a real world example, do you really think giving Sharks human intelligence would be a good idea? I hope not! Pretty much same, same.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  My point about humans should also be well taken.  There are well documented cases where overgrazing, over-farming, etc have ruined ancient civilizations.  Thus your point about "smart" always looking after themselves really isn't true.  Even "smart" animals tend to react to environment crisis only when it's become an immediate threat to survival (and often by then it's too late).  No reason to think the Darkspawn are any different and lots of reason to think they'd be much worse given the in-game examples.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:00 .

[IanPolaris]

oops sorry, dp

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Architect would replace two blights with continunal warefar with Intelligent Darkspawn (and Intelligence on a predatory creature always makes it more dangerous) that is more aggressive and can out breed all other races by literally thousands to one.....

So this is a good idea WHY???

-Polaris

That's a good point. I know this was addressed in another thread as well, concerning the wellfare of the dwarves if the Architect was spared:

Sarah1281 wrote...

What if there was an outcry to round up and kill the very people who had saved the world from extinction? Would all wardens simply go quietly into that good night?

I doubt it. If the last of the Archdemons died and the Wardens truly felt that the darkspawn were gone or were so weak as to never be able to recover and thus their order was defunct then they would simply stop making new ones. Grey Wardens don't taint others and thus there really is no point to killing them. Besides, the Wardens are so secretive no one would have enough information to decide that.

Nothing he said swayed my DN because even if the darkspawn retreated peacefully, the dwarves were still the clean-up crew while the surfacers break out the bottles of wine and go back to blissful lives. We were going to want to reclaim our thiags in the meantime and what happens when we run into talking, intelligent darkspawns in the process? Yeah, that is just flat-out irresponsible and not in the best interest of the dwarves.

Oh, I totally agree. Everyone else would just be happy to forget the darkspawn were still around for another four hundred years and the dwarves would still be slowly dying. It's really an 'us vs. them' situation while the humans and elves could concievably coexist with them as long as the darkspawn remain in their underground lairs. Which isn't likely.

IS the Grey Wardens sole job to end the Blight? I don't think they ever said that. Ending the Blights are the most important job they have, certainly, but why are Blights bad? Yes, the Archdemon is very powerful but the South fell in the first game and no one mentioned any flying dragons and even if the Archdemon was personally present, it couldn't do all that damage alone. The Archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, for example, and even though Cailan was being reckless, the reason they were massacred so badly were because the darkspawn were smart and attacked the tower and the mages first.

So in other words, Blights are bad because intelligent darkspawn are so much more dangerous than mindless roaming darkspawn. How could any even remotely responsible Warden decide that two more Blights which could occur centuries apart and in the future is worse than intelligent darkspawn now and forever? The Archdemon really isn't the only threat and it's only important because it's destruction renders the darkspawn unorganized and less of a threat.

Besides, how quickly does the Architecht think he can make every existing darkspawn a disciple anyway? Who's to say he really will stop the Blights? Maybe he'll dilligently do the best he can to convert as many as possible (and continue making mistakes like the Fifth Blight and the Mother) and in the meantime darkspawn elsewhere that have nothing to do with him find another Old God?

Even if the Architect means what he says and is as good as his word, he's not going to live forever. The darkspawn aren't just going to revert back to mindless creatures again once he's gone or else what's the point of his crusade?

Intelligent darkspawn forever that kill people by their very presence and will inevitably at some point have a few who want to attack humans, elves, and/or dwarves for whatever reason are far more dangerous than two Blights in my book.

[Wereparrot]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Intelligent darkspawn forever that kill people by their very presence and will inevitably at some point have a few who want to attack humans, elves, and/or dwarves for whatever reason are far more dangerous than two Blights in my book.

I don't think so. Genlocks, hurlocks and shrieks are cannon fodder. It's the ogres and emissaries that might cause problems, and even those are short work for my wardens. Compared to revenants and arcane horrors, they are nothing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Darkspawn do not get any more intellegent during a Blight, there are just many more of them actually attacking. Between Blights there are only a few small raids on the surface, probably to gather females. During a Blight it is a numberless horde of Darkspawn lead by an Archdemon which attacks, Cailen knew from the start that there would be no victory at Ostagar, probably based alone on the sheer size of the Darkspawn horde.



I'm not saying that an intellegent Darkspawn wont be a threat, I'm saying that intellegent Darkspawn wont neccesarily want to attack the surface or even the Dwarves. The Darkspawn do not need any further reason than the Archdemons' commands o attack the surface right now. With intellegence, they would need an actual reason to go to war.

Also, the Darkspawn had intellegence for a few years at the most, and within that short time, it lead to a small scale civil war. The more the Darkspawn fight eachother, the better.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darkspawn do not get any more intellegent during a Blight, there are just many more of them actually attacking. Between Blights there are only a few small raids on the surface, probably to gather females. During a Blight it is a numberless horde of Darkspawn lead by an Archdemon which attacks, Cailen knew from the start that there would be no victory at Ostagar, probably based alone on the sheer size of the Darkspawn horde.

This is untrue.  Darkspawn do become more intelligent (more cunning) during a blight.  Much more.  This is confirmed several times during the game and in lore.  In fact the opening scene in DAA confirms it when suprise is expressed that the Darkspawn could try a sneak attack because this isn't a blight.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darkspawn do not get any more intellegent during a Blight, there are just many more of them actually attacking. Between Blights there are only a few small raids on the surface, probably to gather females. During a Blight it is a numberless horde of Darkspawn lead by an Archdemon which attacks, Cailen knew from the start that there would be no victory at Ostagar, probably based alone on the sheer size of the Darkspawn horde.

This is untrue.  Darkspawn do become more intelligent (more cunning) during a blight.  Much more.  This is confirmed several times during the game and in lore.  In fact the opening scene in DAA confirms it when suprise is expressed that the Darkspawn could try a sneak attack because this isn't a blight.

-Polaris

This is even mentioned in the story, because the darkspawn are being guided by the Archdemon (through the Song that even ghouls can hear). The darkspawn committed a sneak attack at the Tower of Ishal while the main force attacked Cailan's armies and they misdirected the armies to think they were heading toward Redcliffe when the bulk of their forces were actually heading to sack Denerim, the capital of Ferelden; that speaks of high intellect to me.

[HolyAvenger]

My take on the architect is that ends do not justify the means. His wanton slaughter and experiments on the Grey Wardens means he has to die. Plus his way out for the darkspawn is too bleak for my liking. There must be another solution.

[Wereparrot]

HolyAvenger wrote...

My take on the architect is that ends do not justify the means. His wanton slaughter and experiments on the Grey Wardens means he has to die. Plus his way out for the darkspawn is too bleak for my liking. There must be another solution.

I'm not saying I justify the Architect's actions, but how else would he establish darkspawn intelligence?

[IanPolaris]

Wereparrot wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

My take on the architect is that ends do not justify the means. His wanton slaughter and experiments on the Grey Wardens means he has to die. Plus his way out for the darkspawn is too bleak for my liking. There must be another solution.

I'm not saying I justify the Architect's actions, but how else would he establish darkspawn intelligence?

He shouldn't be allowed to.  The Darkspawn feed on the various humanities and pretty much the way the ecology is set up, what's good for Darkspawn is ultimately bad for everyone else.  That makes the Architect just as much your enemy as Mother if far more personable and smoother.  He should be treated as such.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

I have been reading a similiar thread that was made several months ago ("To Those Who Spared the Architect"), and the discussion brought up the issue of how darkspawn would deal with reproduction. There seemed to be a consensus that even the sentient darkspawn would need more broodmothers in order to reproduce, and that the darkspawn would try to take women from the surface in order to create more broodmothers. One person actually suggested handing over women (who committed certain crimes) to the darkspawn in order to have peace with them:

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

@krylo, you might be shy of female serial killers even in our day, with a much higher population.

So what is your plan B, failing a couple of female Fereldan Ted Bundy's being turned over to the darkspawn? I'm sure the Chantry would offer up some other possibilities. Blood mages, etc. Kill a few birds with one broodmothering stone.

Blood mages was the original plan.

Seeming as they're to be executed or made tranquil anyway.

And really, what's terrible about the rape etc. isn't the physical pain.  It's the emotional trauma.

Tranquils aren't like us.  They're just dolls.  They have nothing left of what makes them human, and it would be impossible for them to be hurt, beyond a few scrapes and bruises, by what the darkspawn do.

Being punched in the face isn't pain.  Being cut is't pain.  Being electrocuted isn't pain.  It's all just purely physical.  It can be ignored, moved past, and endured.  I've been through my share of physical pain, and you know what?

Physical pain doesn't hurt.

Emotional trauma does.

The tranquil have no feelings and thus could feel no trauma.  There'd be no fear.  No horror.  No sense of being violated.  It would just be the motions.

The tranquil are already dead.

Which--by the by--is why I hate the chantry for even doing it to any mage who is 'too weak'.  It's murder, but without the body and a prettied up name.

Needless to say, the idea of sparing the Architect became very unappealing at this point. The fact that sparing the Architect could condemn women to the fate of becoming broodmothers made me think that sparing him was a big mistake. The discussion continued a few pages on:

krylo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I really find it very difficult to believe that there's not a sociopath behind these words.

Acutally, classically speaking, every single tranquil in the game is a sociopath.  Empathy is an emotion, thus they would be devoid of it.

Honestly, I don't think they were written very well, unless they're SUPPOSED to still have vestigial feelings.

But yeah, no.  Not a sociopath.  Last I checked I was capable of feeling empathy for other human beings.  And also things that aren't human.  But I have certainly been, to borrow a game term, 'hardened' by various events in my life, but let's not get into that.

I keep getting the image of a parapalegic or a coma victim and you saying the same things about them

Look at the other two options, and tell me why not?

It's either that or letting innocent fully functioning women get hurt.

Which is the greater crime, here?  Allowing a perfectly innocent girl...let's say about 14 years of age.  A virgin.  To be taken by the darkspawn, and horribly raped, watch her family get torn apart, and forced to eat them, before being turned into a horrible monster... or maybe you wish it on the 25 year old flower girl?  The college woman?  The business woman?  The mother and beloved wife?  The single mother?  OR

A girl who can't feel horror.  Can't feel terror. Can't be violated in the most vicious and cruel of ways, because they can not feel those things.  Can only feel the perfectly transitory physical pain, that will fade with the beginning of the new day?

If I were a sociopath, I wouldn't give two ****s either way.  So long as it wasn't me getting changed.  But I'm not, and I do, and while both options are terrible, one is far worse.  And you can't choose neither, unless you wipe out the darkspawn and that has its own set of issues.

Just because a human being can't feel- let's correct that, can't feel as you do- then you may do with them as you please?!

As Legion said, all beings are different, and it is a form of speciesm to treat another species exactly as your own when they are not, if a benevolent form.   Likewise, it may be nice to treat people whom can't feel as you or I feel as if they are exactly as us, but they aren't.

A person who is raped is not traumatized, not, truly, hurt, because their body was injured.  They are hurt because their psyche was injured.  Their mind.  They were taken against their will, violated in the deepest and purest and truest way.

However, a tranquil has no will.  There is nothing to violate.  They are not like us.

You say you hate the Chantry, but you would greatly compound their evil and call it a good thing?

Just because I dislike the fact that a resource exists, that doesn't mean that I will not use that resource.

Sheesh.  This discussion is disturbing.

Lil bit.

But, how about this: I'm open to suggestion.

I listed the only three possible choices I saw a few pages ago, here.

So, tell me, is there a fourth option?

What's the right thing to do?

What's the thing that's going to result in the LEAST possible amount of pain?

Utilitarianism is not always good, because sometimes there is not a good choice--however, when you are making decisions that impact millions of lives, you can't think about the suffering of one or two people.  You have to humanize every single person that will be affected.

You can't afford to JUST humanize the few criminals that may be tortured, you have to humanize all the innocent women that WILL be tortured, and to a far greater degree, if you let things continue as they have been with the darkspawn making raids to take women.

You must humanize all the soldiers who would die attempting to stop anyone from being tortured.  You have to humanize their wives and husbands and children at home, whom have to learn that daddy died, or mommy was missing in action after her squad was wiped out in the deep roads, if you choose to wipe them out instead.

This kind of decision is bigger than just the few women that might have to be sent off to a fate that is arguably worse than death (would Morrigan agree?  She doesn't like that response).

You have to stop thinking about just how horrible it would be for them, and start thinking about how horrible it would be for everyone else.

The fact that someone in Thedas might actually suggest that as a means to deal with intelligent darkspawn makes me feel that killing the Architect is the best route to take.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

Not so. As I said, Sigrun will also die (even with quest done and full approval).

She didn't in my playthroughs where I've left her behind and did personal quest/full approval. She survived.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

As far as siding with or killing the Architect, it depends on the Warden I am playing. I have two canons, and each one chose a different path with the architect. One killed him, one spared him, as there are compelling and petty reasons for both descisions. But my greater canon, which is my main one, does kill him, one of the deciding factors being, better the devil you know (Blight Cycle) than the devil you don't (Awakened darkspawn). Both my dwarves killed him, too, because it's their race that would have to deal with the awakened darkspawn.



But I spared him in my second canon, and the ending sounds good enough. Perhaps they will continue to fight amongst themselves.