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[ADLegend21]

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

[Dionkey]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

[DarkSeraphym]

Deathwurm wrote...

@ DarkSeraphym: Thanks for actually posting well thought out posts as opposed to some others I've read! (no sarcasm)
I think we need to look to real World History here...
There are numerous example of Cultures and Countries that don't exactly get along coming together to fight a common threat (think WW2)
so perhaps some Races will participate regardless of the Choices one makes while playing to make sure they're around to finish the smaller Conflicts with their current Enemies...

You are right, there are examples of cultures that were able to put their differences aside. However, keep in mind that Europe, culturally, is one of the younger continents. Travel onto the Asian continent and you are going to see what hundreds, in some cases, thousands of years does to societies. Even if Japan and China could find a common enemy, I do not think you'd be able to convince them to be "allies" asthey'd probably just use the war effort to get an upperhand on the other anyways. Southwest Asia (the Middle East) is another example of what fighting for that length of time can do as the United States government can still not figure out how to make the Kurds, Suni, and Shia Muslims come together despite the fact that, for all intents and
purposes, it would make for a more peaceful situation there (this is a value judgement but you get the idea).

Likewise, some of the WW2 alliances were so superficial that you could barely call them alliances, the Germans and Russians being an example (the Germans turned on them, but Soviet documents suggest that Stalin had been planning to do the samething all along) and the only difference they had between them was the political differences between fascism and communism.

Moving onto the game though, there are even in-game examples of a lack of want to fight together despite there being a common enemy, think Tali telling Shepard she didn't sign on to work with a Geth or listen to the cut conflict dialogue between Grunt and Mordin. Of course, you were able to influence them to see the light but things
do not become so simple when you are dealing with a much larger populace to influence.

Of course, I do agree there are some smaller problems you should be able to fix but the Rachni, Quarian/Geth, and Salarian/Krogan (if Genophage is not cured) are the ones that I think should be more challenging.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:44 .

[Ryzaki]

Dionkey wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

...No it doesn't.

Save Tali's loyalty til after the DR. Wake up Legion immediately afterwards and then talk to Tali. Go to the Flotilla complete her quest and when you come back Legion will ask you about the heretics, go do that mission and then the crew should be captured.

I have done this 10 times without fail.

[Nightwriter]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

So, where do us paragades and renegons fit in all of this?

I am a paragade. I normally get shuffled into the paragon side of things.

I am not sure how renegades treat the renegons.

[Arijharn]

Encarmine wrote...
stuff and roseys and other stuff...

Shouldn't they be daffodils?

While it is true that Renegade's get the better lines (usually at least, the only exception I can think of is the 'Is That It?' lines to Tela, because those just rocked) I sorta hope that for once we get just a wee bit more. I know, I know, I'm being selfish!

Having said that, due to the fact that there seems to be some more content out there for Paragons out there than Renegades (I wonder if anyone has actually gone through the game and counted all the Paragon interrupts vs all the Renegade interrupts?) -- and I can think of that Asari bondmate quest that rewards just pure paragon points I don't expect that BioWare will buck that trend in the future though.

[Winter Dragon]

I've never really focused on whether I get paragon or renegade for the decisions I make, I tend to just make decisions that are in line with my own moral or ethical values in real life without any bearing on what the game awards me.

That said, most of my actions seem to be aligned to Paragon, still figuring out why that is. Maybe I don't like un-neccessary conflict or bloodshed, though I've still killed a number of npcs who probably didn't deserve it.

Modifié par Winter Dragon, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[DarkSeraphym]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

It doesn't necessarily prove that not all Geth are hostile. Legion was under the command of Shepard and he was vastly outnumbered as he was the only Geth that was on that particular ship (not including the Alerei obviously). There are plenty of tactical reasons as to why Legion would have avoided openly attacking as a single Geth on a ship. Of course, as far as he says, we know those are not the reasons for that decision but some of the Quarians could obviously be thinking that these reasons could be reasons why he did not attack.

Likewise, keep in mind that the Quarians are at an impass on how to deal with the problem. We had three generals hearing Tali's trial and all three of them had differing ideas on how to deal with it (control, no war, war) and I think BioWare meant to show this as a representation of the level of uncertainty that exists within the Quarian populace. Even if the majority of Quarian were against war, which I did not get this vibe, it only takes a handful of warmongering Quarians to start a war with the Geth.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:44 .

[adam_grif]

Dionkey wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

Nope, there is exactly enough time to do Tali and Legion's loyalty missions after the IFF is installed.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

I am not sure how renegades treat the renegons.

Probably with a sense of self-superiority?

Psst: I'm a paragade too XD

[Dionkey]

adam_grif wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

Nope, there is exactly enough time to do Tali and Legion's loyalty missions after the IFF is installed.

Ah, I was unaware of this, going to have to try this next playthrough, thanks. Still, I doubt one outcome is only way to manage it. However, it could certainly be one of the few outcomes,just not the only.

[Winterfly]

Encarmine wrote...

Hmmmmmmmm, thats not what I would call a Renegade. Can still havea max Renegade bar and have Wrex alive (i dont think you get points for that decision?) you can spare the Rachni Queen using middle ground conversations. Keeping the base seems to fit in with the novels anyway, and us renegades get the added bonus of have Illusive Man stand there all badass saying 'Cerberus will be Ready Shepard' wich sounds like we havea solid freind their.

Paragons on the other hand, have destroyed a potential weapon, kept a war causing black box in operation, lost a potential geth controlling device, made the geth in general more powerfull because their equivilent of a hand held DS told them to rewrite it and... blah

That sounds pretty bad ass. With a Cerberus so god damn strong with high tech forces the other races to fight for example.

I would love to see Renegade Shep go to talk with the other races leaders, smacking there faces and telling them to get it the f*** together cause they are next in line to die by reaper. 

Moving onto the game though, there are even in-game examples of a lack of want to fight together despite there being a common enemy, think Tali telling Shepard she didn't sign on to work with a Geth or listen to the cut conflict dialogue between Grunt and Mordin. Of course, you were able to influence them to see the light but things 
do not become so simple when you are dealing with a much larger populace to influence.

Indeed, it becomes much harder then. Cause these people clearly have their own "Shepards" aka charismatic leaders or people who know how to talk to a mass and they will probably follow their own kin then someone like Shepard, im pretty sure of that. 

Modifié par Winterfly, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Dionkey wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

Nope, there is exactly enough time to do Tali and Legion's loyalty missions after the IFF is installed.

Ah, I was unaware of this, going to have to try this next playthrough, thanks. Still, I doubt one outcome is only way to manage it. However, it could certainly be one of the few outcomes,just not the only.

I'd recommend it as if you haven't seen the dialogue yet, it's fantastic.

We do know two of them on the top of our heads anyways. If Daro'Xen (I think that was her name) manages to gain control of the Geth then there won't be any need for a war as the Quarians will just take them over again. Likewise if Project Overlord ends up working, as the researchers believe it will (Lair reinforced this), then humanity will gain control of the Geth, which will probably end up without open war against the Geth as well.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:56 .

[Winterfly]

Interesting. So either the Quarian or the Human will take control of the Geth? Only me seeing a conflict zone here?

[DarkSeraphym]

Winterfly wrote...

Interesting. So either the Quarian or the Human will take control of the Geth? Only me seeing a conflict zone here?

There is no telling whether or not Daro'Xen actually has the technology to do it. At most, you get an email from her saying she went through those files and thinks she has discovered a way to claim them as servants again. Cerberus does appear to have the technology for it and if you sold Legion to Cerberus, there is a file in Lair of the Shadow Broker that affirms that Cerberus is going to use Legion for Project Overlord. Of course, there is no telling if it will work. However, so far it appears that David was able to gain control of any Geth he spoke to so I give Cerberus' claims of gaining control more credit than I do to Daro'Xen.

Either way, there is going to be some heated words for that. The Turians will use it as an example of humanity's growing greed for power while the Salarians will probably argue that it at least means the Geth are not going to be a problem anymore (really, it shocks me that the Salarians appear to not care nearly as much as the Turians and the Asari do that humanity is in control in my game). Doubtful it would cause conflict with the Quarians though. For one, it means they no longer have to get rid of the Geth. For another, it means humanity has leverage over the Quarians as a whole (their home planet) . If humanity gains control, both humanity and the Quarians end up winning.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:08 .

[FlintlockJazz]

adam_grif wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Thats not really fair to everyone because that forces you to kill half your crew.

Nope, there is exactly enough time to do Tali and Legion's loyalty missions after the IFF is installed.

Does require a bit of meta-gaming though since ingame Shepard doesn't know he's going to pick up a Geth squadmate on the dead reaper and so doesn't really have any reason to postpone Tali's recruitment mission till then.  Hell, your average player is probably completely unaware that's an option.

[Dean_the_Young]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually I think the Geth/Quarian war should be stopped if you brought Legion on the Flotilla. it shows that the Geth aren't all hostile because Legion didn't start shooting once he was at the heart of the migrant fleet.

Not that, mind you, a potentially non-hostile Geth would undermine everything the Quarians believe: Legion and his kind have continued to fight a 300 year war with no prior sign of any willingness to negotiate, and the war-inclined Admirals aren't exactly disuaded if you bring Legion to the trial regardless. Xen wouldn't care, either.

It could certainly be possible to stop the war, but it's far from a 'everyone stop fighting, the geth are friendly!' 'Ok.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .

[Lycidas]

I don't think either ending (paragon or renegade) will differ much from the other because at the end of ME3 BW needs a canon ending to continue the IP with.

[RVallant]

I'll probably support the geth over the quarians in ME3 if push comes to shove... I've held the view that all information in game should be treated with a very large pinch of salt. Personal experience with the races are much more important. It's the same logic process I used to establish whether to keep the Rachni Queen alive or not.



If they're intelligent and have their own society or are working towards that then in all cases diplomacy is the first option. If it doesn't work then bring out the big guns. From what I'm hearing it sounds like the Quarians are being a bit idiotic about the whole thing. But I'll see for myself soon =p

[Deathwurm]

@DarkSeraphym: I agree with your points about the WW2 Alliances...some were superficial at best and barely lasted till the end of the War...the fact does remain, though, that for that brief period those Nations did come together to defeat a more immediate threat.

Perhaps ME Cultures will do the same only to exploit the situation afterwards...I think it would be cool if the Game extended a bit beyond the Reaper Invasion to show a bit of what happens afterwards and who exploits the situation to Defeat longer-standing Enemies.

Still...all very good points, especially about Asia.

[Vaenier]

Krogan are not going to help defeat the Reapers, at most they will help clean up afterwards. Rachni will be of little help, only a handful of ships at max. If a single queen could produce a powerful fleet in only 2 years, then they would never have lost the war in the first place. I thought the council is not all human, it is just human dominated, as demonstrated in another thread with some screen shots of the epilogue.

But I still saved the Rachni, and kept the cure, even if i wont use it. And my council is the original, even though they are stubborn.

[lovgreno]

Nah, everyone will do well in one way or the other. There are no wrong or right decisions in the ME story.

[Arijharn]

Vaenier wrote...

But I still saved the Rachni, and kept the cure, even if i wont use it. And my council is the original, even though they are stubborn.

I also have this mindset. To me, it's not about getting guarantee's, it's about aligning as many 'uncontrollable' elements in your favour as possible (as I see it). For me that means I:
1) Saved the original Council
2) Saved the Genophage 'cure'
3) Saved the Rachni
4) Would look to a peaceful resolution between Quarian's and Geth (although in all honestly if I had to choose I would be more in favour with the Geth if only because I believe they could mobilize in far greater numbers)
5) Put David back into Overlord
6) Saved the Collector Base.

This way, I have less question marks (as I see it) to deal with when it comes to stopping the Reapers and my Shephard's tend to take that vow of 'galactic peace and stability' pretty seriously -- even if it does make me of less moral standing than others.

Having said that, I still think in some ways Renegade's are going to be more 'screwed' than the Paragons, because as a Paragade I've obviously made decisions that blurs the line somewhat and probably makes me seem 'schizophrenic'  to game progression.

[DarkSeraphym]

elfadelbosco wrote...

well, being a full renegade in Me1 and 2 means killing a lot of savable people (Wrex, Racnhi Queen, and many other), it meant falling out with many people who could be friends or fan of yours, like Verner and many others... you kill or disappoint a full army of potential friends, so how can you hope to do as well as a paragon Shep???

I've gotten the vibe that full renegade is sacrificing allies in exchange for a technological advantage.