209 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

Yes, I am so very sorry for not wanting to hug everyone who weeps, don't feel like listening to an arrogant Krogan whine and moan for five minutes straight, help kittens down from trees, and also I'm so very sorry for believing that we can use the Collector Base in our war against the Reapers and you know, just generally do what I feel is going to help me in the long run. FYI, I saved the Council, Wrex is alive and I saved the Rachni.
Just because I decided not to wipe the tears of Princess Sparklegums it doesn't mean that I'm so called "screwed".

Modifié par Aeowyn, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[DarkSeraphym]

I'm not sure why people keep referencing killing Wrex as a Renegade option. Unless you did his mission or have the Charm/Intimidate to make him stand down, he has to be shot regardless of whether you are a Paragon or a Renegade.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

lol. People still think that the Rachni are evil?

No, I believed the story that they were indoctrinated by the Reapers. My biggest concern was the fact that the "hive mind" problem of the Rachni's build creates a weakness that could be abused by the Reapers all over again as they only need to get ahold of the Rachni Queen. Her species, to me, was too great a risk in the face of an enemy like that to just let go free.

The Rachni aren't a hive-mind, and I'm confused as to where you ever got the impression. The children need to develop in the presence of an adult's 'song' to be mentally healthy, but they are independent minds.

[wolfsite]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I'm not sure why people keep referencing killing Wrex as a Renegade option. Unless you did his mission or have the Charm/Intimidate to make him stand down, he has to be shot regardless of whether you are a Paragon or a Renegade.

I'm guessing it has more to do with him becoming a popular/likable character for most people and thus would see someone wanting to kill him as being Renegade.

[DarkSeraphym]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

lol. People still think that the Rachni are evil?

No, I believed the story that they were indoctrinated by the Reapers. My biggest concern was the fact that the "hive mind" problem of the Rachni's build creates a weakness that could be abused by the Reapers all over again as they only need to get ahold of the Rachni Queen. Her species, to me, was too great a risk in the face of an enemy like that to just let go free.

The Rachni aren't a hive-mind, and I'm confused as to where you ever got the impression. The children need to develop in the presence of an adult's 'song' to be mentally healthy, but they are independent minds.

Thank you for correcting me. I was under the impression they functioned on a hive mind. That does change my view on them now. Honestly, I can't remember where I got that impression)

EDIT: I remember where I got that impression. Mass Effect Wiki.

"Rachni Queens[/b] are the matriarchs of the hive-minded, insectoid rachni species."

It  is also mentioned in the Codex: 

"Though now extinct, the rachni once threatened every species in Citadel space. Over 2,000 years ago, explorers foolishly opened a mass relay to a previously-unknown system and encountered something never seen before or since: a species of spacefaring insects guided by a hive-mind intelligence."

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:49 .

[didymos1120]

wolfsite wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I'm not sure why people keep referencing killing Wrex as a Renegade option. Unless you did his mission or have the Charm/Intimidate to make him stand down, he has to be shot regardless of whether you are a Paragon or a Renegade.

I'm guessing it has more to do with him becoming a popular/likable character for most people and thus would see someone wanting to kill him as being Renegade.

Welll, call me crazy, but it might just have something to do with the game giving you Renegade points for personally shooting him, telling Ash to do it, or telling Ash she did the right thing by stepping in.  It's only not Renegade if Ash does so without permission and you then give her sh!t for it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dragon Age: Origins had what I consider an excellent handling of 'good vs. evil' morality, in so much that it was, because it distinctly favored neither while alternatingly favoring and punishing both over time.

You could play a nigh-Mary Sue Warden, if you wanted. You could play heart-on-the-sleeve morality. And sometimes it would work out beautifully and ideally (reconciling the Dalish and the Werewolves). And sometimes, it did not. (Harrowmount, the sympathetic king.) When it worked out, sometimes it was risky or unsafe, but it wasn't a guarantee. And when the nice thing didn't work out, it was usually both reasonable and predictable in its own right: not only in the sense of Harrowmount, but in the general context of if, after doing a sidequest, if a uber-nice Warden said 'I don't need payment, only your thanks,' the Warden wouldn't get paid. An uber-nice Warden, unless they exploited the Lyrium Potion sale, could suffer for cash throughout the entire game. A nice Warden was not uniformly rewarded, rewarded equally, or always coming with the happier twists of fate.


And on the other side, the Renegade-ish Wardens had both their ups and downs. Their ruthless, straight-forward decisions could provide real gains that more idealist Wardens would miss: permanent stat boosts, greater monetary rewards, rare and powerful items. In one of the Big Choices, the 'evil' choice to keep the Anvil of the Void would get you an extra army of golems, powerful in their own right, and give the dwarves a lifeline out of a losing war verging on extinction. Yes, there were betrayals and unhappier ends for some people and places: the mages, the elves, even your companion Alistair. But there were different gains, and different results, in others: Prince Bhelen, at the end of the day, is far better for the dwarven people than Lord Harrowmount, and the entire choice about Loghaine can completely change what you know of the story, and Ferelden.


While I doubt it will occur, if anything ME3 needs to take a lesson from Dragon Age: both Renegades and Paragons are going to get screwed for their actions. And both Renegades and Paragons should get rewarded for other actions.

[Dean_the_Young]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

lol. People still think that the Rachni are evil?

No, I believed the story that they were indoctrinated by the Reapers. My biggest concern was the fact that the "hive mind" problem of the Rachni's build creates a weakness that could be abused by the Reapers all over again as they only need to get ahold of the Rachni Queen. Her species, to me, was too great a risk in the face of an enemy like that to just let go free.

The Rachni aren't a hive-mind, and I'm confused as to where you ever got the impression. The children need to develop in the presence of an adult's 'song' to be mentally healthy, but they are independent minds.

Thank you for correcting me. I was under the impression they functioned on a hive mind. That does change my view on them now. Honestly, I can't remember where I got that impression)

EDIT: I remember where I got that impression. Mass Effect Wiki.

"Rachni Queens[/b] are the matriarchs of the hive-minded, insectoid rachni species."

It  is also mentioned in the Codex: 

"Though now extinct, the rachni once threatened every species in Citadel space. Over 2,000 years ago, explorers foolishly opened a mass relay to a previously-unknown system and encountered something never seen before or since: a species of spacefaring insects guided by a hive-mind intelligence."

Thank you for correcting me!

Too many things get lost in the codex that are never addressed in the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I'm not sure why people keep referencing killing Wrex as a Renegade option. Unless you did his mission or have the Charm/Intimidate to make him stand down, he has to be shot regardless of whether you are a Paragon or a Renegade.

I'm guessing it has more to do with him becoming a popular/likable character for most people and thus would see someone wanting to kill him as being Renegade.

Welll, call me crazy, but it might just have something to do with the game giving you Renegade points for personally shooting him, telling Ash to do it, or telling Ash she did the right thing by stepping in.  It's only not Renegade if Ash does so without permission and you then give her sh!t for it.

You're crazy.

[DarkSeraphym]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Thank you for correcting me!

Too many things get lost in the codex that are never addressed in the game.

No problem. This universe is like crack for me and you had me concerned that I had missed something since I try to keep as much of the codex in mind as possible when dealing with Mass Effect. Anyways, that was my biggest concern. I was afraid the Reapers could potentially use that to their advantage, as they had previously, and decided it would be safer just to be rid of them.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 13 janvier 2011 - 02:00 .

[Phaedon]

DarkSeraphym wrote...
No, I believed the story that they were indoctrinated by the Reapers. My biggest concern was the fact that the "hive mind" problem of the Rachni's build creates a weakness that could be abused by the Reapers all over again as they only need to get ahold of the Rachni Queen. Her species, to me, was too great a risk in the face of an enemy like that to just let go free.

That wasn't directed to you, some of the first posters actually.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins had what I consider an excellent handling of 'good vs. evil' morality, in so much that it was, because it distinctly favored neither while alternatingly favoring and punishing both over time.

I disagree, DA:O did not do it well IMHO, and other games have done it better, I'd rather they looked elsewhere.  It was more a case of "We want to do gray, but we're too afraid to actually do it" with DA:O, and as a result made it even worse.  Bioware do seem to struggle with morally grey choices I think, tending to resort to making the player choose between wussy saint, neutral mercenary and complete ****** for the sake of being a ******.

ME actually had greater moral choices I feel, especially with some of the loyalty missions like Garrus' one and Samara's was gray even with if you sided up with Samara (had to be done, but was a necessity brought about by the imperfections and unfairness of the world).  While not perfect (some of the renegade choices just seem to be based on being a jerk for no reason other than being a jerk), the overall intentions of paragon and renegade is not meant to be good v evil, and I doubt either choice should be screwed at the end.

[Xilizhra]

You could play a nigh-Mary Sue Warden, if you wanted. You could play heart-on-the-sleeve morality. And sometimes it would work out beautifully and ideally (reconciling the Dalish and the Werewolves). And sometimes, it did not. (Harrowmount, the sympathetic king.) When it worked out, sometimes it was risky or unsafe, but it wasn't a guarantee. And when the nice thing didn't work out, it was usually both reasonable and predictable in its own right: not only in the sense of Harrowmount, but in the general context of if, after doing a sidequest, if a uber-nice Warden said 'I don't need payment, only your thanks,' the Warden wouldn't get paid. An uber-nice Warden, unless they exploited the Lyrium Potion sale, could suffer for cash throughout the entire game. A nice Warden was not uniformly rewarded, rewarded equally, or always coming with the happier twists of fate.

Harrowmont is only sympathetic if you don't pay attention, and the number of people who give you a chance to refuse a reward is rather small.

Also, I doubt Loghain is a Renegade choice. How is it more Renegadeish to save someone's life?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Harrowmont is only sympathetic if you don't pay attention,

I'd say that applies to a lot of the Paragon/Renegade delimmas.

and the number of people who give you a chance to refuse a reward is rather small.

Not that small. You could lose out on a lot of rewards if you didn't outright seek them, and pressure for more.

Also, I doubt Loghain is a Renegade choice. How is it more Renegadeish to save someone's life?

Why shouldn't it be Renegade-ish when saving Morinth's life was?

The reasons for doing so are highly utilitarian (a great general, instant end to the civil war by co-opting the opposition), increasing your own strength), while at the cost of directly betraying the trust of a longer, far more moral-based ally.

Renegade isn't simply 'kill the bastard.' It never has been.

[IrishGunman]

Renegade Shep kills just about everyone he meets, so he might be left with no one to fight the Reapers in ME3.

[Aigyl]

I found Mass Effect has more interesting choices (Legion's loyalty mission, end of Garrus' loyalty mission, Collector Base, etc.), but Dragon Age handled the consequences of choices better. For example take Anvil of the Void; the morally right thing to do is destroy it to prevent more people undergoing a horrific process that turns them into slaves for eternity, but those slaves are damn powerful and could save a lot of lives fighting the Blight. This decision is reflected at the end, if you kept the Anvil you have the most powerful army in the game at your disposal and can kick arse, but as you'd expect events don't go very well back in Orzammar, especially if you crowned Harrowmont.

In Mass Effect, as someone who usually picks the Paragon choice, I would like things to go better for Renegades for once. I'm actually hoping keeping the Collector Base turns out to give better results than blowing up the Base just so picking the idealistic moral choice doesn't always also yield the best result in the aftermath as well. Dragon Age nailed a better balance between idealism and pragmatism as Dean pointed out. Mass Effect favours morals over practicality a bit much, personally.

[88mphSlayer]

could be fun to blow up all the squidbilly reapers and start your own human reaper master race with Sheperd as the AI for the vanguard human reaper

+ finally a reapermance with harbinger

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 13 janvier 2011 - 03:53 .

[BlightOnTheFaceOfEntireGalaxy]

I've done some digging on Geth/Quarian war and if you pushed for peace and resolved Tali's trial with P/R, she tells you that she was asked to replace her father on admirality board( or maybe she said that it was some gossip, but you know what 'gossip' is in games stories...), so I think that is safe to assume that Tali would vote for peace if you asked her, and with her vote the score for peace with Geth would be 3:2(for peace: Qwib-Qwib guy,Shaala Raan and Tali, for war and other stuff: Xen and Han Gerrel). And here you go, Geth and Quarian armies/fleets at your disposal, regardless of your P/R score. So both moralities get their chance it only depends on your choice -you take it or leave it

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

I'm not sure why people keep referencing killing Wrex as a Renegade option. Unless you did his mission or have the Charm/Intimidate to make him stand down, he has to be shot regardless of whether you are a Paragon or a Renegade.

I'm guessing it has more to do with him becoming a popular/likable character for most people and thus would see someone wanting to kill him as being Renegade.

Welll, call me crazy, but it might just have something to do with the game giving you Renegade points for personally shooting him, telling Ash to do it, or telling Ash she did the right thing by stepping in.  It's only not Renegade if Ash does so without permission and you then give her sh!t for it.

You're crazy.

Don't blame me.  Blame Bioware.  They're the ones handing out the Ren points. Of course people are gonna consider an action that nets you Renegade points to be a Renegade action. 

[Bullets McDeath]

But you can also talk Wrex down by being a Renegade and get Renegade points for doing so. No two Renegades rene the gade quite the same way.

[didymos1120]

outlaworacle wrote...

But you can also talk Wrex down by being a Renegade and get Renegade points for doing so. No two Renegades rene the gade quite the same way.

Not the point.  The question was asked "Why do people think killing Wrex is Renegade?"  Well, there are three ways he can end up dead that give you Renegade points. Two of those ways involve Shep deliberately causing that death.  There's one that doesn't, and in that instance it's Ash who does the killing without permission.  Again: I think the game telling you "That was Renegade" when you consciously choose to kill him probably has something to do with people considering it Renegade. 

[88mphSlayer]

didymos1120 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

But you can also talk Wrex down by being a Renegade and get Renegade points for doing so. No two Renegades rene the gade quite the same way.

Not the point.  The question was asked "Why do people think killing Wrex is Renegade?"  Well, there are three ways he can end up dead that give you Renegade points. Two of those ways involve Shep deliberately causing that death.  There's one that doesn't, and in that instance it's Ash who does the killing without permission.  Again: I think the game telling you "That was Renegade" when you consciously choose to kill him probably has something to do with people considering it Renegade. 

it's all "video game" speak anyways

my first playthrough of Mass Effect 1 i got Wrex killed even tho i preferred going the paragon path, not that i wanted him to get killed it just happened that way

[Bullets McDeath]

didymos1120 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

But you can also talk Wrex down by being a Renegade and get Renegade points for doing so. No two Renegades rene the gade quite the same way.

Not the point.  The question was asked "Why do people think killing Wrex is Renegade?"  Well, there are three ways he can end up dead that give you Renegade points. Two of those ways involve Shep deliberately causing that death.  There's one that doesn't, and in that instance it's Ash who does the killing without permission.  Again: I think the game telling you "That was Renegade" when you consciously choose to kill him probably has something to do with people considering it Renegade. 

I read you, but I also think the question at hand is better phrased as "Why do people think Renegades must kill Wrex?", unless I'm missing the subtext. And while killing Wrex is, yes, a Renegade action, it does not mean you have to have killed Wrex in order to qualify as "Renegade", nor does it mean it's the only option Renegades have in that situation. It's not a situation that ONLY Renegades will be presented with and as even you point out, all characters will get Renegade points, even for allowing it to happen, unless their hands are clean *and* they complain about it (at which point Ash should shoot them too, probably, but I digress).

Modifié par outlaworacle, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .