603 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

bassmunkee wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I like how you didn't bother to read a word of what I just said. Good job.

Oh no I did read it, but to be honest I was more impressed that you feel strongly enough about to actually mock up a parody picture.
Kudos for that, it gave me a smile. I can't fault your resolve or the depth of your feeling on the subject of the moral terpitude inherent in the ME universe.
But good luck with that. 

Dude, this has nothing to do with some moral bs. Its all about common sense and logic. Everyone can be naked on the Normandy for all I care, but in battle and especially in space they need to wear a proper armor. You know, like they would in reality...and ME 1.

[HopHazzard]

Speaking strictly of Miranda, I think her outfit made sense for her character. I just would've liked the opportunity to tell her to stop shoving her ass out at me since it was definitely not earning her any points.



More generally, I prefer the ME1 model of default outfit for on the ship and customizable armor for battle.

[Rogue Unit]

Babli wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I like how you didn't bother to read a word of what I just said. Good job.

Oh no I did read it, but to be honest I was more impressed that you feel strongly enough about to actually mock up a parody picture.
Kudos for that, it gave me a smile. I can't fault your resolve or the depth of your feeling on the subject of the moral terpitude inherent in the ME universe.
But good luck with that. 

Dude, this has nothing to do with some moral bs. Its all about common sense and logic. Everyone can be naked on the Normandy for all I care, but in battle and especially in space they need to wear a proper armor. You know, like they would in reality...and ME 1.

Common sense and logic would tell me to just not bring someone who isn't equipped with armor into a vacuum.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:14 .

[Phaedon]

Gleym wrote...

So, let's just sum it up: On one side there are those of us who think there should be plausible armor that makes sense given the setting and circumstance. It can look sleek and sexy, but not at the cost of common sense and believability in the setting.

On the other side, there's the other group of people who think this is perfectly alright..

..because it 'adds unique character style'. Oh wait, no, cause people wouldn't be so quick to defend something this retarded because it's a gender they DON'T want to see freakin' ****** on. Despite the fact that, ironically enough, the gasmask he's wearing even has more going for it than either Miranda or Jack.

Zaeed has less parts of his body covered with clothing than Miranda does. 

[JKoopman]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Babli wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I like how you didn't bother to read a word of what I just said. Good job.

Oh no I did read it, but to be honest I was more impressed that you feel strongly enough about to actually mock up a parody picture.
Kudos for that, it gave me a smile. I can't fault your resolve or the depth of your feeling on the subject of the moral terpitude inherent in the ME universe.
But good luck with that. 

Dude, this has nothing to do with some moral bs. Its all about common sense and logic. Everyone can be naked on the Normandy for all I care, but in battle and especially in space they need to wear a proper armor. You know, like they would in reality...and ME 1.

Common sense and logic would tell me to just not bring someone who isn't equipped with armor into a vacuum.

So, in other words, you feel that people should be forced to potentially leave characters that they enjoy behind for no other reason than because BioWare apparently can't be arsed to create proper atmospheric attire for them? And this is an acceptable state of affairs for you? That's the argument you're going with?

[Rogue Unit]

JKoopman wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Babli wrote...

bassmunkee wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I like how you didn't bother to read a word of what I just said. Good job.

Oh no I did read it, but to be honest I was more impressed that you feel strongly enough about to actually mock up a parody picture.
Kudos for that, it gave me a smile. I can't fault your resolve or the depth of your feeling on the subject of the moral terpitude inherent in the ME universe.
But good luck with that. 

Dude, this has nothing to do with some moral bs. Its all about common sense and logic. Everyone can be naked on the Normandy for all I care, but in battle and especially in space they need to wear a proper armor. You know, like they would in reality...and ME 1.

Common sense and logic would tell me to just not bring someone who isn't equipped with armor into a vacuum.

So, in other words, you feel that people should be forced to potentially leave characters that they enjoy behind for no other reason than because BioWare apparently can't be arsed to create proper atmospheric attire for them? And this is an acceptable state of affairs for you? That's the argument you're going with?

Absolutely. If Miranda being able to waltz around without armor in space is too infurating and breaks immersion for you, leave her behind. Bring her along the next time you're on Illium or the Citadel.

Bioware never hid the fact that your companion's armor was static. Shouldn't have bought the game if this issue is just too over the top.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[Babli]

Rogue Unit wrote...
Absolutely. If Miranda being able to waltz around without armor in space is too infurating and breaks immersion for you, leave her behind. Bring her along the next time you're on Illium or the Citadel.

Bioware never hid the fact that your companion's armor was static. Shouldn't have bought the game if this issue is just too over the top.

[Gleym]

Phaedon wrote...

Zaeed has less parts of his body covered with clothing than Miranda does. 

You're right. Probably because Zaeed covers most of his body with ARMOR, not clothing, unlike Miranda.

[Iakus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

In short, I'm not asking for it to be hyper realistic, I'm asking for it to be consistent and to adopt a style instead of being all over the shop.

This, this, a thousand times this!

ME 1 established that people wear armor in combat.  Ugly armor, yes.  But that's something that could be fixed.   ME 2 seems to be establishing that people wear superhero costumes instead!

Unique looks and functional looking armor are not mutually exclusive concepts!

[HyenaLobo]

Well my perspective is, that all of these people are trained combat efficient experts. So unlike their AI counterparts, would not stand taking shots to the face on a crate. So match real life stealth and cover practices with kinetic barrier modules, it is believable.

In terms of the biotics Miranda, Jack, Samara and Jacob all ware close fitting uniforms. None of which really supply any less exposure than Kaidan's almost skin tight light armor in ME1. Their powers are all story related, but in reality they all have the potential to use "Barrier", matched with the Kinetic Barriers that protect their bodies, do they really need armor?

So my point is no biotic powers= armor+kinetic barrier, biotic powers=tight outfits+kinetic barriers. Also it should be noted that the difference between the heavly armored class characters health, Shepard, Grunt, Zaeed is far diffrent from the lesser armored like Kasumi, Miranda, even Garrus.

Modifié par HyenaLobo, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:36 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Regardless of any argument I've seen yet, the fact that the female armor models in ME1 made their wearers look pregnant was far more immersion destroying for me than even Jack's default costume in ME2. That said, if you actually look at the material Miranda's costume is made out of, it's woven scales of some sort, not a cloth. It could be krogan hide for all we know.

[s0meguy6665]

I don't think Jack's clothing looks sexy at all. I like all the other's suits, but the clothing you get for completing their loyalty was usually cooler.

[The Spamming Troll]

i bought the alternate appearance costumes for the simple fact that i hate seeing jack running around without a shirt on. not that i dont like topless girls, i just tell myself the "shirt" shes wearing is protecting her, instead of that boob strap thing she wears. i like the characters looking iconic, but id also like them to look like they know guns are being shot at them.

[Iakus]

HyenaLobo wrote...

Well my perspective is, that all of these people are trained combat efficient experts. So unlike their AI counterparts, would not stand taking shots to the face on a crate. So match real life stealth and cover practices with kinetic barrier modules, it is believable.

In terms of the biotics Miranda, Jack, Samara and Jacob all ware close fitting uniforms. None of which really supply any less exposure than Kaidan's almost skin tight light armor in ME1. Their powers are all story related, but in reality they all have the potential to use "Barrier", matched with the Kinetic Barriers that protect their bodies, do they really need armor?

So my point is no biotic powers= armor+kinetic barrier, biotic powers=tight outfits+kinetic barriers. Also it should be noted that the difference between the heavly armored class characters health, Shepard, Grunt, Zaeed is far diffrent from the lesser armored like Kasumi, Miranda, even Garrus.

Problem is biotic and kinetic barriers only protect you from a very limited (if common) scope of attacks.  Namely bullets and to a limited extent explosions.  These aren't (or aren't supposed to be) Star Treky "force fields"  Fire, radiation, poison, slower moving attacks like melee, not to mention enviromental conditions like extreme heat and cold, are going to be meaningless against these protections.  Some sort of secondary line of defense is needed.  Some sort of physical protection.

[InvincibleHero]

So is the armor self-repairing? Nope so after a few hits if the we want realism crowd truly want it then A. it has less protective quality until repaired and if it was environmentally protecting you yeah your atmosphere is venting. Realism is no regeneration for humans at all where do they get the materials to rebuild your body with an autodoc? Yeah just forget the realism you'll be far happier for it.



It's just a game if they want Miranda's armor to look different then so be it. It is a flexible leather bodysuit that enables her more mobility in theory. Besides it has the same healing capability as your armor so anything that gets through will be healed when it is able to.



BTW Ceramic armor shouldn't stop mass effect propelled slugs anyway.

[Gleym]

HyenaLobo wrote...

Well my perspective is, that all of these people are trained combat efficient experts. So unlike their AI counterparts, would not stand taking shots to the face on a crate. So match real life stealth and cover practices with kinetic barrier modules, it is believable.

In terms of the biotics Miranda, Jack, Samara and Jacob all ware close fitting uniforms. None of which really supply any less exposure than Kaidan's almost skin tight light armor in ME1. Their powers are all story related, but in reality they all have the potential to use "Barrier", matched with the Kinetic Barriers that protect their bodies, do they really need armor?

So my point is no biotic powers= armor+kinetic barrier, biotic powers=tight outfits+kinetic barriers. Also it should be noted that the difference between the heavly armored class characters health, Shepard, Grunt, Zaeed is far diffrent from the lesser armored like Kasumi, Miranda, even Garrus.

What UNIFORM does Jack wear? She wears cargo pants and a freaking BELT across her nipples. I swear to god, just for that rationale of yours I want to smash a wall.

[InvaderErl]

Dude you need to relax, I hate to say it but it really is just a video game - no need to go smashing walls.

In any case, ME1 established Biotics often wear less armor than regular soldiers often forsaking hardsuits altogether.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that they shouldn't wear hardsuits in environmental hazards or having sensible helmets, but ME1 already had plenty of Biotics wearing little more than



or



not to mention



Its established, move on.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:37 .

[Phonantiphon]

Ok last thing then I'm off this post coz it's boring now.
@BABLI - *I* know it shouldn't be about some moral BS but that appears to me to be how some of the other posters have interpreted it.
They appear to be confused between what they and some others see as appropriate attire for space and appropriate attire worn by women. Check the posts, you'll see what I mean. - (and no, I don't think that women should necessarily wear skintight clothing with loads of decotellage morning noon and night but in the context of the game (the GAME) it's entirely fine and dandy because it fits the universe they are in).
There are as far as I can tell so far anyway no points where they are exposed to hard vacuum or to the same kind of environmental hazards that were prevalent on some of the ME1 planets. So they don't need space suits, do they.
And as for armour - the crew of the Firefly never wore armour, the rebels in Star Wars never wore armour - there is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.

Either way the argument is specious and whilst we are on the subject - and you are guilty of this too - it's NOT real; it's a sci-fi space opera with all the flash-bangs and intrigue and glamour and sex and violence and drugs and everything else that that involves and it's none the worse for it.
You want up to the minute realism? Go and play counterstrike. You wanna have a romp through the farthest reaches of the universe with a ragtag group of compadres against impossible odds all wrapped up in a well thought out and colourful alternate reality, then play this.
If you feel the need to go outside and birch yourself because "Ya canna break the laws of physics, Jim!" and yet it's oh so good to try then go ahead but ffs stop whining about it.
The point is that to be immersive, something does not have to be *real* and yes it has to be believable but that is down in large part to the interpretation of the observer/participant and whether or not they are able to reconcile the elements of the experience into a believable whole. If the observer cannot get over it...I mean as I pointed out before - it's hardly jumping the shark is it?). Bioware have done in my view a great job of putting together all the required pieces, the rest is up to us...
Now I'm off to actually play the game - I believe I'm about to run into Samara, as it goes...

Modifié par bassmunkee, 15 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .

[Gleym]

InvaderErl wrote...

Dude you need to relax, I hate to say it but it really is just a video game - no need to go smashing walls.

It's not the video game issue itself that makes me want to break something in this regard, it's the logic people use to back up the shortcomings of something. It borders on religious zealotism where everything is apparently going to make them correct no matter what.

[Babli]

bassmunkee wrote...

Ok last thing then I'm off this post coz it's boring now.
@BABLI - *I* know it shouldn't be about some moral BS but that appears to me to be how some of the other posters have interpreted it.
They appear to be confused between what they and some others see as appropriate attire for space and appropriate attire worn by women. Check the posts, you'll see what I mean. - (and no, I don't think that women should necessarily wear skintight clothing with loads of decotellage morning noon and night but in the context of the game (the GAME) it's entirely fine and dandy because it fits the universe they are in).
There are as far as I can tell so far anyway no points where they are exposed to hard vacuum or to the same kind of environmental hazards that were prevalent on some of the ME1 planets. So they don't need space suits, do they.
And as for armour - the crew of the Firefly never wore armour, the rebels in Star Wars never wore armour - there is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.

Either way the argument is specious and whilst we are on the subject - and you are guilty of this too - it's NOT real; it's a sci-fi space opera with all the flash-bangs and intrigue and glamour and sex and violence and drugs and everything else that that involves and it's none the worse for it.
You want up to the minute realism? Go and play counterstrike. You wanna have a romp through the farthest reaches of the universe with a ragtag group of compadres against impossible odds all wrapped up in a well thought out and colourful alternate reality, then play this.
If you feel the need to go outside and birch yourself because "Ya canna break the laws of physics, Jim!" and yet it's oh so good to try then go ahead but ffs stop whining about it.
The point is that to be immersive, something does not have to be *real* and yes it has to be believable but that is down in large part to the interpretation of the observer/participant and whether or not they are able to reconcile the elements of the experience into a believable whole. If the observer cannot get over it...I mean as I pointed out before - it's hardly jumping the shark is it?). Bioware have done in my view a great job of putting together all the required pieces, the rest is up to us...
Now I'm off to actually play the game - I believe I'm about to run into Samara, as it goes...

Well, it wouldnt be so annoying if they didnt established proper armor in first ME which I love.
First ME - everybody wears armor or suits at least. Can you imagine somebody like Jack or Samara in first ME? Running on the Citadel or Noveria?

ME 2 - almost everybody wears superhero costumes or almost nothing. They totally threw ME 1 out of window.

My point - if they didnt established something in first game, if there were also superhero costumes like in cheap comics, I wouldnt care so much. I would take it as rules of ME universe. BUT first ME was trying to be realistic sci-fi. As something that could happen and I could believe it. While ME 2 is just another space fantasy to appeal more mainstream audience.

Modifié par Babli, 15 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[JKoopman]

InvaderErl wrote...

Dude you need to relax, I hate to say it but it really is just a video game - no need to go smashing walls.

In any case, ME1 established Biotics often wear less armor than regular soldiers often forsaking hardsuits altogether.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that they shouldn't wear hardsuits in environmental hazards or having sensible helmets, but ME1 already had plenty of Biotics wearing little more than



or



not to mention



Its established, move on.

Interesting that you should choose images that prove exactly the opposite of the point you're trying to make.

Benezia was an Asari Matriarch, basically a political dignitary and advisor to Saren, not a front-line fighter expected to be engaging in combat. That's what her Asari Commandos were for. That she DID engage in combat when you cornered and confronted her does not establish that biotics run around in stripper outfits in combat in the Mass Effect universe any more than it establishes that soldiers run into combat in casual clothes because you fought a few unarmored dock workers during the course of the game; it merely establishes that Benezia was cornered and confronted in a situation she hadn't planned for.

As for the other two, I can clearly see light-armor plating--and at the very least woven (and presumably kevlar-esque) mesh and hardened leather/polymer--covering the length of their bodies (as well as completely sealed suits for hazardous environments and vaccuum). So I'm not sure how either of those prove that it's commonplace for biotics to go into combat situations in high heels and nipple belts.

EDIT: Also, thanks for reminding me how much better Shiala looked in ME1. *sigh* I miss the purple...

Modifié par JKoopman, 15 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[InvaderErl]

Shiala is supposed to be sick, she's supposed to look worse.

You paint it as if Benezia was shocked and surprised by Shepard's arrival or that she had no idea she might actually get into a situation in which she may need to fight. She knew she was walking into a combat zone, that's why she brought tons of Asari Commandos and Geth with her, that's why she told Ventralis and his men to prepare a trap for Shepard BEFORE he got there. She had PLENTY of time to tell somebody to go fetch her a hardsuit. That she didn't indicates she felt her biotics would sufficiently protect her.

Then in combat, surprise surprise, she and the Commando use their Biotics to shield them which seem to do a fine job of offering the protection a hardsuit would.

Also, at this point I'm not arguing design and which one is aesthetically better (which is what so many people try to turn this line of argument into) but rather simple fact. The fact is this: we have numerous cases that attest to, verbal and visual, biotics not wearing full-out hardsuits into battle, hence Biotics are established as not needing hardsuits in combat. Also just to point out the materials of Samara's outfit also look to offer as good if not better protection than all of the examples posted and Liara's fetish outfit posted above is not much better than Miranda's fetish outfit in terms of armor plating.

The dockworker example is irrevelant because they wouldn't have access to military grade weapons and armor. The Commandos do. Benezia does, Liara does. They go into battle with far less protection than their non-biotic counterparts.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:55 .

[JKoopman]

InvaderErl wrote...

Shiala is supposed to be sick, she's supposed to look worse.

I'm not speaking strictly of her green skin, although I do think purple is a far more fetching color on her. Simply put, ME2's "improved" lighting engine makes her face look like it's made out of sandpaper, and I sorely miss how sexy she looked in her Asari Commando outfit (which I must point out managed to be both aethstetically attractive AND appear to offer full-body protection).

InvaderErl wrote...

You paint it as if Benezia was shocked and surprised by Shepard's arrival or that she had no idea she might actually get into a situation in which she may need to fight. She knew she was walking into a combat zone, that's why she brought tons of Asari Commandos and Geth with her, that's why she told Ventralis and his men to prepare a trap for Shepard BEFORE he got there. She had PLENTY of time to tell somebody to go fetch her a hardsuit. That she didn't indicates she felt her biotics would sufficiently protect her.

If she did feel that her biotics alone were suffient to protect her in a combat situation, she clearly thought wrong. So where does that leave your argument...?

In any case, I would counter that, as she had an entire squad of Asari Commandos with her as well as assumed that Shepard would be killed in the trap she had prepared in the Hot Labs, she felt she had no need to bring along combat attire.

InvaderErl wrote...

Then in combat, surprise surprise, she and the Commando use their Biotics to shield them which seem to do a fine job of offering the protection a hardsuit would.

That they use their biotic barriers as ADDED protection does not mean that they view biotic barriers as the only REQUIRED protection. My Sentinel Shepard routinely used a biotic barrier in addition to his full Onyx armor, as did Wrex when he was equiped with heavy Battlemaster armor. Clearly Wrex doesn't believe that his biotics alone are sufficient to protect him...

InvaderErl wrote...

The fact is this: we have numerous cases that attest to, verbal and visual, biotics not wearing full-out hardsuits into battle, hence Biotics are established as not needing hardsuits in combat. Also just to point out the materials of Samara's outfit also look to offer as good if not better protection than all of the examples posted and Liara's fetish outfit posted above is not much better than Miranda's fetish outfit in terms of armor plating.

No, we don't. As I pointed out, both of the later examples you used were of sealed full-body Light Armor no different than what Shepard could equip and most certainly weren't "fetish outfits" by any stretch of the imagination. That it's less bulky and robust than Heavy Armor does not negate that fact that it's still armor designed to protect the wearer, not casual civilian clothes.

There are no cases in ME1 that "establish" biotics didn't need hardsuits. Only examples of biotics either not having access to armor or being caught in an unexpected combat situation while out of armor. And as each and every example ends with them being easily dispatched at the hands of Shepard and his properly armored squad, I'd say a little additional armor probably would've been a good idea.

Modifié par JKoopman, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:24 .

[hitorihanzo]

LOL @ someone thinking Jacob's outfit is sexual. Ahahahahahahahahaha! Jack, I understand, but she's crazy, and dresses like because she has absolutely no regard for galactic standards of morality and propriety. Her outfit plays directly into her character. Miranda dresses provactively because she looks good and she knows it. Again, it plays directly into her character. I have absolutely no problems with any of them. This game isn't for kids, and if pixels and cgi get a rise out of you, then that tells us a lot about your love life.

[JKoopman]

hitorihanzo wrote...

LOL @ someone thinking Jacob's outfit is sexual. Ahahahahahahahahaha! Jack, I understand, but she's crazy, and dresses like because she has absolutely no regard for galactic standards of morality and propriety. Her outfit plays directly into her character. Miranda dresses provactively because she looks good and she knows it. Again, it plays directly into her character. I have absolutely no problems with any of them. This game isn't for kids, and if pixels and cgi get a rise out of you, then that tells us a lot about your love life.

And ink on a page shouldn't get a "rise" out of people, yet Playboy sells so well (and I doubt people are buying it for the articles).

Kind of a tangent, but I hate it when people use the "lol its just pixels" argument; like people aren't allowed to find videogame characters sexy or attractive without being mentally unstable virgins.

Modifié par JKoopman, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .