603 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Just how protective do you think the armor is? It is only a couple of cm of ceramic or like material. It would degrade from a few hits as it ablates strikes. Or it could plain just be penetrated as if it isn't there by a mass porpelled slug. The speed and impact is way beyond current guns such that I don't believe armor is logical to block it. Biotic fields and kinetic shields yeah but plain old material armor no.

Freedom of movement is important in combat. Great swordsmen can fight without armor and defeat an armored opponent. There are tradeoffs. Miranda's looks just as thick as light armor from the first game and who knows waht materail it is. It could be a modern day super-kevlar in ME.

1) ME armor isn't super-heavy or ankward to move in
2) Any proof that those clothes are made of super-kevlar
3) Assuming they are, wouldn't a thicker layer of it be even MORE protective?
4) We see how armor looks in the ME universe. From light to heavy variants, they all look like armors. Cloths don't look like armors. Clothes aren't armors.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jebel Krong wrote...
nice oxymoron there, sport. realistically no band of hard-asses like you assemble is all gonna wear nice, matching, uniforms just because you want them to - no elite units do it today, let alone all the different (mostly loner-type) personalities as represented in ME2. at the most, maybe, you could get the cerberus people to suit up but grunt, thane, let alone jack - no way in hell.

:lol::lol:
You crack me up. How  can you even make that statement without any sarcasm...wait, was that sarcasm?

See this:
www.topfatlosstrainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/delta-force-workout-routine.jpg

Or this:
www.specialoperations.com/Army/Delta_Force/default.html

That is how Special Forces go into battle. It's ture that on special mission (liek spying, observation and such) they wear civilian clothing, but in combat? always fully geared up.

[Flamewielder]

@ OP: loooved the sexy outfits on board... CRINGED at exposed skin in vaccuum, toxic/corrosive amosphere and bullet-stopping spandex.

Keep the sexy casual wear. Get some credible-looking armor/vacc suits for EVA's.

[FlintlockJazz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

2) Any proof that those clothes are made of super-kevlar
3) Assuming they are, wouldn't a thicker layer of it be even MORE protective?

It is fairly common in sci-fi for armour to advance to the point that it can be incorporated in some way into normal-looking clothes, but then it is also typical that guns also advance (and in ME we know guns have advanced significantly with mass effect technology) as well to the point that armoured clothing only really offers mediocre protection against small arms fire like handguns.  I'd expect them to wear armoured clothing when operating undercover or worn by important businessmen who would have it in the form of a business suit, where walking around in armour would draw attention, but in a firefight against people wielding assault rifles?  No way in hell.  That's where combat hardsuits come into play.

Add to this the fact that even if it gave her adequate protection Miranda's suit is clearly intended to be more a business uniform (a very tight-fitting one) and not one that would protect you from environmental hazards then it doesn't really fit the situation.  The high heels are just stupid, no one expecting combat would wear something like that.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:59 .

[Jebel Krong]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
nice oxymoron there, sport. realistically no band of hard-asses like you assemble is all gonna wear nice, matching, uniforms just because you want them to - no elite units do it today, let alone all the different (mostly loner-type) personalities as represented in ME2. at the most, maybe, you could get the cerberus people to suit up but grunt, thane, let alone jack - no way in hell.

:lol::lol:
You crack me up. How  can you even make that statement without any sarcasm...wait, was that sarcasm?

See this:
www.topfatlosstrainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/delta-force-workout-routine.jpg

Or this:
www.specialoperations.com/Army/Delta_Force/default.html

That is how Special Forces go into battle. It's ture that on special mission (liek spying, observation and such) they wear civilian clothing, but in combat? always fully geared up.

REAL special forces - like the SAS/SBS - they choose, individually any equipment they need for any mission; which is why - along with the spetsnaz - they are rated the best special forces in the world.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:59 .

[Undertone]

Gleym wrote...

bbbbbb wrote...

finally a like-minded person....the imagination of some people is...well seemingly non-existant

Imagination doesn't factor into it. That's like saying because I'd find it freaking retarded that Gollum didn't die when he fell into Mt. Doom but went swimming in the fiery lava pits instead that I don't have any sort of imagination. Or that if Iron Man traded in his armor for a gimp costume that it's a lack of vision on my behalf rather than it simply being f*ck-stupid.

I'll say what I said in another thread. I'm always going to prefer the lore-accurate armor that's along the lines of this, or this, or this, or heck, even if it has to be skintight like Miranda's outfit it can even look like this. It isn't a 'limited imagination' on my behalf when something is freakin' obviously clothing and not armor due to the fact that the fabric doesn't act like any sort of armor. And when the rationale behind it is 'oh, it must be a special fabric that has all of the texture, feel and physics of regular spandex, but can deflect bullets!' and I call you lot out on it why everybody else isn't using it? 'Uh, well, clearly only Miranda uses it!'. What a load of trite bollocks. It's not a lack of imagination that makes us disapprove of Miranda's jumpsuit. It's the fact that Miranda's jumpsuit is altogether lacking in imagination in the first place. It's not armor. It's a freaking catsuit. If Shepard ran around dressed like this you sure as hell wouldn't be defending it that much.

And then when you continue to stubbornly insist that it's a super special space fabric, we address the other offender: Jack. Except we don't want to talk about Jack, do we? We don't have an excuse for Jack, other than dismissive remarks about how none of the planets are that dangerous, or how her biotics would protect her-- Oh wait, it's been repeatedly stated and proven via the Codex that her biotics wouldn't do sh*t to save her. So what do you do instead? Pretend nobody said anything. Cause it's alright to prance around half-naked as long as it's part of a unique and interesting character design, right? Well then meet Bob the Space-Hobo. Bob has biotics too, so I guess he's totally safe walking around the middle of a warzone dressed like that.

Don't call other people unimaginative just because we're not hormonal nitwits who absolutely must have a character prancing around in a skintight catsuit. Because in the end, that's all this is about. People trying to cover up the fact that they really like seeing Miranda's ass in their faces on the screen and not wanting it covered up by actual armor that makes sense. Because that'd mean that they can't oogle it all the t-- I mean, that'd detract from her 'unique character appearance'.

This. Nothing else further can be said. People that want the costumes are just hormonal teens. Have them on the ship, but otherwise it's just completely retarded.

[Gleym]

So, Majere, I take it if Shepard went skinny-dipping in lava that'd be perfectly sensible to you?

[FlintlockJazz]

Majere wrote...

You really have to get over this, Star Trek from the 70's showed more remember the Orions females?, most of the crew females had mini skirt.
Mass Effect Series is adult themed and even if it's not it's a RPG and not to be confused with real world, as your ok with your player using magic but dammit the armour your wearing is not realistic how can it protect me with my cleavage showing?

let it go

Original Star Trek is moronic.  If it was made today like that it would be immediately disregarded as utter crap.  Even the Star Trek reboot had the cast wearing more appropriate clothing when off the ship.

[Gleym]

Recon64bit wrote...

Encarmine wrote...

What is that a picture of?

Quarians.

[Gleym]

Biotics don't block out the natural elements, Majere. Perhaps you should refer to the Codex. Nor do they block out things in the atmosphere and air, such as the intensely toxic clouds of chlorine on one planet that you visit, which can sink into your skin and your eyes and poison you, and yet Jack and Miranda prance around with not only exposed skin, but both their breather masks only cover their noses and mouths, meaning it'd sink into their eyes and bloodstream.

So according to you, this is perfectly reasonable and makes sense because it's an RPG in spite of it having pre-established senses of realism. Now, if it is perfectly alright for them to survive those circumstances, Majere, then it stands to reason that they should survive dipping into lava with no armor on as well.

Modifié par Gleym, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:02 .

[ZLurps]

I don't know if comparison to televion sci-fi series or movies is really going to change anything regarding Mass Effect.

On television series, costumes are expensive. They do require money to create and also money to maintain. In let's say historical dramas costumes can be re-used in other drama, in sci-fi not so much.
That's why producers streamline sci-fi elements from costumes and sometimes from other things. New Battlestar Galactica did exactly this with weapons and vehicles.

On games it's different, once the costume is created it doesn't need physical storage page, or maintenance crew and in case of sold DLC it's income to producer. Totally different thing compared to tv or movies.

Edit: Personally I didn't really paid much attention to squad mate armours in combat, but for those who want armours to be option, why not?

Modifié par ZLurps, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:27 .

[Uszi]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Freedom of movement is important in combat. Great swordsmen can fight without armor and defeat an armored opponent.

Maybe in Naruto.

Fact is, every civilization that has ever sent people to fight other people with swords have incorportated some sort of armor, with the trend being to increase armor rather than decrease it.  Mounted European Knights got a little crazy, but the Romans valued this kind of mobility and they still deck their dudes out in partial platemail:


Going in with no armor is just kind of silly, especially if armor has any potential to prevent damage.

The three Musketeers, Zoro, or any other sword weilding badass that supposedly used all of his skill and agility to best better equipped opponents were basically the Jason Borne's of the olden days.

Now folks, we can argue as much as we want about how much Miranda's tracksuit protects her in combat, but lets refer to the codex, shall we:

What does the codex say about the advantages of wearing armor?

Combat hard-suits use a dual-layer system to protect the wearer. The inner layer consists of fabric armor with kinetic padding. Areas that don't need to be flexible, such as the chest or shins, are reinforced with sheets of
lightweight ablative ceramic.  The outer layer consists of automatically-generated kinetic barriers.  Objects traveling above a certain speed will trigger the barrier's reflex system and be deflected, provided there is enough energy left in the shield's power cell.

Armored hard-suits are sealable to protect the wearer from extremes of temperature and atmosphere.  Standard equipment includes an onboard mini-frame and a communications, navigation, and sensing suite. The mini-frame is designed to accept and display data from a weapon's smart targeting system to make it easier
to locate and eliminate enemies.

Now would you rather have a protective coating with onboard computers to help with navigation, enemy identification, that redistribute your kinetic barriers automatically to better defend you against oncoming fire, that have larger energy reserves, and that, as a last resort, cover you in armor to slow the speed of any projectiles that get through?

Or do you just want a better view of dat:


Or dees:

Modifié par Uszi, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:08 .

[Gleym]

"B-But, Uszi!" the hormonal-driven protester shouts, "It's not about the ass and ******! It's about looking unique on the battlefield!"

[Uszi]

If I could continue rambling for a moment, many people have pointed out, "What good is armor against super advanced weapons?"

Well, lets add a dose or realism to our discussion.

First, what is the real, modern equivalent of ceramic armor?
Currently, modern day ablative Ceramic armor completely stops high velocity rifle amunition even at close ranges.

So, I think it's safe to assume that the Alliance Military, as soon as it developed super advanced guns with mass accelerators, it would begin developing new means of protecting soldiers, especially elite soldiers like Shepard.  And even if super-ablative armor is available to the common soldier, certainly an elite soldier like Shepard would have access to it.

The popular argument now is that the armor won't stop the projectiles.  Which to me smacks of BS, but lets roll with it for a mental exercise.  Lets say that future armor "can't" stop incoming projectiles completely.  Now we get into the discussion of, "Well the bullet will pierce you anyone onces your barriers are down, so you might as well be in a track suit with dat and dees hanging out, lol."

Well, no.  We have to consider bullet velocity.

You see, the faster a bullets velocity when it actually enters your body, the more damage it does from the wound expansion.

So, even if a round pierces your armor:
1).  Most of the bullet force is absorbed by the armor and not your squishy bits.
2).  Most of the bullet velocity is dissipated before reaching your squishy bits.
3).  The shape of the round is distorted before reaching your squishy bits.

In all, by wearing armor, you are preventing deeper penetration and the wound formation the bullet was designed for, increasing your odds of surviving that direct hit immensely.

LETS REVIEW class

Situation:
Miranda Lawson Eats a bullet when her barriers go down.
RESULTS:

Miranda + armor
Miranda gets a few broken rips and moderate tissue damage.

Miranda + dat ass
Maybe she will change out of the tracksuit for the funeral?

Modifié par Uszi, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:33 .

[Ulzeraj]

Star Trek, circa 1970.



It says all.

Also, for the "OMG QQ realism" crowd:

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:08 .

[JKoopman]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...
Marvel and DC have been doing this for more than a decade.

Superman doesn't exist in ME.

And really, your skill at debates is abysmal. You keep missing the point and ingore basic logic.

Samara, Jack Miranada - they cna wear those clothes in their private time (or in your playtrough) as much as they want. But some of us would like that in our playtrough, they choose their wardrobe with a bit more sense (or that we may choose for them)...

After all, there is no "I" in a team, and if I say everyone should assemble in matching armor, then they better well do it or they're out of the team.

nice oxymoron there, sport. realistically no band of hard-asses like you assemble is all gonna wear nice, matching, uniforms just because you want them to - no elite units do it today, let alone all the different (mostly loner-type) personalities as represented in ME2. at the most, maybe, you could get the cerberus people to suit up but grunt, thane, let alone jack - no way in hell.

Again, as I already pointed out, neither Garrus, Wrex or Liara were part of the Alliance (or any other) military in ME1 and therefor were under no obligation to follow Alliance/military regulations, yet all of them suited up in proper combat attire when going into battle.

And what good is this supposed team of "badass" professionals if they're apparently not professional enough to take off the high heels and put on some damn armor when going into a combat situation?

[JKoopman]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Star Trek, circa 1970.



It says all.

Also, for the "OMG QQ realism" crowd:

You're right. We should all just accept that in ME3 our team of highly-trained professionals will be going into combat looking like this.



And if anyone has a problem with that, they're just "OMG QQ"ing and should learn to shut up and enjoy the game.

NOTE: I'm also not sure what bringing Star Trek into the argument has to do with anything, as I don't believe scientific realism or plausibility was ever high on Gene Roddenberry's list of concerns.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[Gleym]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Star Trek, circa 1970.



It says all.

Yeah, really. I mean, what more is there to say other than 'this chick is clearly dressed for indoors activities and not for prancing around in outer space during a combat situation'? I feel you've made your point very well in that regard.

Ulzeraj wrote...
Also, for the "OMG QQ realism" crowd:

So Shepard CAN swim in lava. Thanks for confirming that for me.

[Uszi]

Gleym wrote...

"B-But, Uszi!" the hormonal-driven
protester shouts, "It's not about the ass and ******! It's about looking
unique on the battlefield!"

Mmmf.  Dat, in terms of character development, mechanically good design.

Roight.

Modifié par Uszi, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:27 .