603 réponses à ce sujet

[Gleym]

Hey, guess what, InvincibleHero? Wandering around with your skin and eyes exposed in highly-concentrated clouds of toxic chlorine is fatally poisoning, AND there is no antidote for it - so it isn't any different from jumping into a pit of lava! Hurray for credibility!

[InvincibleHero]

Gleym wrote...

Hey, guess what, InvincibleHero? Wandering around with your skin and eyes exposed in highly-concentrated clouds of toxic chlorine is fatally poisoning, AND there is no antidote for it - so it isn't any different from jumping into a pit of lava! Hurray for credibility!

I am unsure if chlorine is skin permeable, but then again we don;t know what exactly genetic modifications Miranda has. Jack doesn't appear to have any skin with all those tats. LOL. Kidding about Jack.

Add http://emedicine.med...820779-overview

Appears it only is an inhalent. So no sorry theory wrong.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:16 .

[Gleym]

http://www.epi.state...i/oii/chlorine/

Common Routes of Chlorine Exposure
[*]Inhalation. The most common way for chlorine to enter the body
is through the respiratory system. Signs and symptoms of chlorine inhalation
can include:

• Rapid, difficult breathing
• Bluish skin color
• Wheezing and congestion
• Cough
• Nausea and dizziness
• Burning, irritated throat
• Swelling or narrowing of the airways
• Chlorine-induced pneumonia
• Possible lung collapse

[*]Absorption through the Skin. Chlorine can be absorbed through the
skin and cause burns ranging from mild to severe depending on the length of
contact. The victim may also experience pain, inflammation or swelling, and
blisters. Symptoms displayed by skin exposed to liquid chlorine can include
frostbite or tissue death.


[*]Absorption through the Eyes. Chlorine can also be absorbed through
the eyes and cause burning or discomfort, irregular blinking, involuntary
closing of the eyelids, redness, and tearing. Larger amounts of chlorine in
the air may lead to severe eye burns, pain, and blurred vision.
[/list]Try again, InvincibleHero. EDIT: Funnier still is that in your OWN link there's mentions of skin and eye exposure, genius.

Modifié par Gleym, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
nice oxymoron there, sport. realistically no band of hard-asses like you assemble is all gonna wear nice, matching, uniforms just because you want them to - no elite units do it today, let alone all the different (mostly loner-type) personalities as represented in ME2. at the most, maybe, you could get the cerberus people to suit up but grunt, thane, let alone jack - no way in hell.

:lol::lol:
You crack me up. How  can you even make that statement without any sarcasm...wait, was that sarcasm?

See this:
www.topfatlosstrainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/delta-force-workout-routine.jpg

Or this:
www.specialoperations.com/Army/Delta_Force/default.html

That is how Special Forces go into battle. It's ture that on special mission (liek spying, observation and such) they wear civilian clothing, but in combat? always fully geared up.

REAL special forces - like the SAS/SBS - they choose, individually any equipment they need for any mission; which is why - along with the spetsnaz - they are rated the best special forces in the world.

My boy, Deltas are real special forces. The best US has, to be exact. SAS are ****** compared to them.

[InvincibleHero]

The study I linked to pointed out that tissue damage appears to be an incorrect hypothesis. Even when it is inhaled in the lungs there is no tissue death.



Gleym not in pure uncombined chlorine. With amonia and HCL yes some burning.



Pathologic findings



Pathologic findings are nonspecific. They include severe pulmonary edema, pneumonia, hyaline membrane formation, multiple pulmonary thromboses, and ulcerative tracheobronchitis.10

The hallmark of pulmonary injury associated with chlorine toxicity is pulmonary edema, manifested as hypoxia. Noncardiogenic pulmonary edema is thought to occur when there is a loss of pulmonary capillary integrity, and subsequent transudation of fluid into the alveolus is present. The onset can occur within minutes or hours, depending upon severity of exposure. Persistent hypoxemia is associated with a higher mortality rate.



The eye seldom is damaged severely by chlorine gas toxicity; however, burns and corneal abrasions have occurred. Acids formed by the chlorine gas reaction with the conjunctival mucous membranes are buffered, in part, by the tear film and the proteins present in tears. Consequently, acid burns to the eye typically cause epithelial and basement membrane damage but rarely damage deep endothelial cells. Acid burns to the periphery of the cornea and conjunctiva often heal uneventfully, while burns to the center of the cornea may lead to corneal ulcer formation and subsequent scarring.



In animal models of chlorine gas toxicity, immediate respiratory arrest occurs at 2000 ppm, with the lethal concentration for 50% of exposed animals in the range of 800-1000 ppm.7 Bronchial constriction occurs in the 200-ppm range with evidence of effects on ciliary activity at exposure levels as low as 18 ppm. With acute exposures of 50 ppm and subacute inhalation as low as 9 ppm, chemical pneumonitis and bronchiolitis obliterans have been noted. Mild focal irritation of the nose and trachea without lower respiratory effects occur at 2 ppm.



In one study of chlorine gas toxicity conducted on human volunteers, 4 hours of exposure to chlorine at 1 ppm produced significant decreases in forced vital capacity (FVC), forced expiratory volume in one second (FEV1), and peak expiratory flow rate.11 An increase in airway resistance was demonstrated. In a controlled volunteer study, patients with hyperreactive airways demonstrated an exaggerated airway response to exposure of 1 ppm chlorine gas.12 While in another study, patients with rhinitis and advanced age demonstrated a significantly greater nasal mucosal congestive response to chlorine gas challenge than patients who did not have rhinitis or those of younger age.13 However, the mechanism of response to chlorine in nasal tissue does not appear to include mast cell degranulation.

[Gleym]

Well, in that case, InvincibleHero, perhaps you should go a step beyond in defending the ludicrous outfits of ME2. I suggest that you go ahead and fill a room with chlorine gas, wear a breather mask over just your nose and mouth, and run around in it for about half an hour. Tell us how that feels.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dear lord...why does reading this thread makes me feel like I'm loosing my IQ? Some of the arguments here are so.....brainless.



And no Invincible Hero. Just no.

We know from the codex the armor works. We know from the games that armor is used by all militaries in the ME universe. So I ask you this - if it doesn't protect, WHY THE HELL ARE THEY USING IT?

[Gleym]

My argument isn't brainless at all, really. InvincibleHero is convinced that chlorine gas is completely harmless as long as you don't inhale it, so I'm curious as to whether or not he'd be so keen to believe it if he had to run into a room full of it so long as he was covered in the inhaling department.

Modifié par Gleym, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:04 .

[InvincibleHero]

Gleym wrote...

Well, in that case, InvincibleHero, perhaps you should go a step beyond in defending the ludicrous outfits of ME2. I suggest that you go ahead and fill a room with chlorine gas, wear a breather mask over just your nose and mouth, and run around in it for about half an hour. Tell us how that feels.

Product failure rates are a big risk in any device created by man. Are you willing to bet your life on a 10% defect rate? I'm not psychotic to take any risk than normal life.

Pathology you know examination of actual victims and corpses proved it. If you can't believe a medical journal then I can't help.

You first make your suit of N7 armor and jump in a live volcano and then I'll do it.  Please don't take that as serious.

[Gleym]

The difference here is that you believe that it is safe and I don't. I don't need to jump into a volcano because I'm the one insisting it'd be freakin' stupid. You, on the other hand, are the one clamoring about how it's harmless.

[InvincibleHero]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dear lord...why does reading this thread makes me feel like I'm loosing my IQ? Some of the arguments here are so.....brainless.

And no Invincible Hero. Just no.
We know from the codex the armor works. We know from the games that armor is used by all militaries in the ME universe. So I ask you this - if it doesn't protect, WHY THE HELL ARE THEY USING IT?

Hmm we know from the codex that fictional armor in the ME2 game works' because they told us in the codex. Somehow that doesn't seem scientific to me. You cannot prove Miranda's suit has any less protective quality as light armor does.

You don't seem to last any longer than Miranda does if you had the same hit points. In fact the armor pieces in game offer no protection bonuses. That is a huge plot hole.

Please try again.

[InvincibleHero]

Gleym wrote...

The difference here is that you believe that it is safe and I don't. I don't need to jump into a volcano because I'm the one insisting it'd be freakin' stupid. You, on the other hand, are the one clamoring about how it's harmless.

In theory eating elephant excrement is harmless so why don't you just chow down? Exactly it is a stupid suggestion. No need to make such statements because they prove nothing.

[Gleym]

That logic makes no sense, because eating elephant excrement isn't harmless at all. There's any number of diseases you can pick up from doing that. And even if it was harmless? There's also the fact that, while it's harmless, it still tastes like sh*t. In theory, shooting yourself in the freakin' arm is harmless too, but you still got shot, meaning your logic is entirely roundabout and nonsensical in the first place in the face of the simple fact that I'M insisting that one thing isn't harmless.

In short: I say eating elephant sh*t isn't harmless, and that's why I'm not stupid enough to do so. You say it IS harmless, so I say you should prove it to me.

EDIT: By the way, I'd just like to point out how f*cking stupid this has gotten now, that the surmounting logic being wielded by those defending Miranda's ******-ass costume in the face of the natural elements is elephant feces. Grasping at straws now, people. Grasping at f*cking straws now. Goddamn I hate ME2 zealots.

Modifié par Gleym, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:24 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gleym wrote...

My argument isn't brainless at all, really.

Not aimed at you mate. Not aimed at you.

[Gleym]

Man, Lotion.. just InvincibleHero's last stroke of 'reason' has officially made me want to cut myself.. ugh. I'm just about to give up on the human race.

[Lotion Soronarr]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Product failure rates are a big risk in any device created by man. Are you willing to bet your life on a 10% defect rate? I'm not psychotic to take any risk than normal life.

Smart man.
Now start taking into acount for a second that people living in ME universe also aren't psychotic and are willing to use any advantage they can get...especially when the survival all life in the galaxy is at stake.
They won't take any unnecessary risk.
Which is why any sane, sensible person, would take as much protection and practicly possible. After all, evne biotic barriers can fail.

Only stupid people have no backup plan.

[Lotion Soronarr]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no Invincible Hero. Just no.
We know from the codex the armor works. We know from the games that armor is used by all militaries in the ME universe. So I ask you this - if it doesn't protect, WHY THE HELL ARE THEY USING IT?

Hmm we know from the codex that fictional armor in the ME2 game works' because they told us in the codex. Somehow that doesn't seem scientific to me. You cannot prove Miranda's suit has any less protective quality as light armor does.

You don't seem to last any longer than Miranda does if you had the same hit points. In fact the armor pieces in game offer no protection bonuses. That is a huge plot hole.

Please try again.

... I ..... my ears are bleeding right now.

Tell me, does Mirandas outfit LOOK like it's an armor of any sort? Does it look like it can protect anything?
We have examples of light armor in the game, don't we? Does Miranda's outfit look anything similar to it? No, it doesn't. Neither in the material used, nor the thickness.

So how can it be comparable to a state-of-the-art military armor, when it's not even closely as thick or protective OR sealed?

You might as well be claiming my honda civic is equal to a tank in terms of protection.

Dear Lord man...just...jsut give up. You're embarrasing yourself.

[JKoopman]

I think this has gotten a little too personal. Play nice, guys, and remember it's just a game.

And yes, InvincibleHero, the codex describes exactly how armor works in the ME universe, and at no point is bullet-stopping spandex ever mentioned in that description. And, as so many people use armor in the ME universe, it can be logically inferred that armor--even light armor--affords some kind of protection against not only the elements but also rounds fired from period weaponry (otherwise what reason would Shepard have for using armor instead of going into combat in a Hawaiian shirt and board shorts?).

Besides, regardless whether you choose to believe in the bullet-stopping spandex theory, in the case of Samara and Jack it can't protect what it's not covering.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Radwar]

I don't care what my squad wears on the Normandy, but when they go on a mission, they should all wear armor, simple as that. All squadmates that don't wear armor on the battlefield look like suicidal morons.

[Val Seleznyov]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
My boy, Deltas are real special forces. The best US has, to be exact. SAS are ****** compared to them.

hahahaha... no.

[ZLurps]

Something I came to think about.



ME2 environments and level design is imo, ok. Most who played the game enjoyed it. If players have had more options regarding outfits it had made it even better game for some players.

Then I thought if we had missions on planets where environment were been really hazardous or missions where we needed to operate in vacuum. (This is non spoiler forum so... eh..)



But just for the sake of discussion, I try to imagine Shepard had a mission where s/he needs to fight something like a Thresher Maw on hazardous environment. Hazard could be anything or combination radiation, poison, vacuum, heat, cold whatever.

Or Shepard needed to make some operation outside of Normandy in vacuum, maybe get some data from derelict alliance ship that have huge holes in it, maybe fight enemies on that mission too.

Yep, I can see why some players would like to have something that looked bit more assuming than Jacks leather strap and so on. (Though I think if there is anyone who could survive in vacuum by just plain attitude, that would probably be Jack :-P)

[Uszi]

Yes, yes, children.  Be kind to your friends.  No hitting or shoving, or teachers Stanly, Chris, or Pacifen will put us all in timeout.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Hmm we know from the codex that fictional armor in the ME2 game works' because they told us in the codex. Somehow that doesn't seem scientific to me. You cannot prove Miranda's suit has any less protective quality as light armor does.

You don't seem to last any longer than Miranda does if you had the same hit points. In fact the armor pieces in game offer no protection bonuses. That is a huge plot hole.
Please try again.

Meh.  Let's refocus our argument, and move forward.  Your points, and tell me if I'm paraphrasing wrong:

(1).  FICTIONAL ARMOR IN THE GAME IS FICTIONAL and is therefore not governed by science, and can therefore do whatever/whenever/however.
(2).  NO PROOF CAN EXIST that would say that Miranda's track suit is not also armored.
(3).  MIRANDA'S ARMOR IS MADE OF A LIGHTWEIGHT AND PROTECTIVE MATERIAL
(4).  THERE IS NO ARMOR PROTECTION IN THE GAME, when you're sheilds go down, you start losing health.



Ahem.

In Regards to: (1) Fictional armor in the game is fictional
You are corect:  We are told how armor in the ME universe works via the "fictional" codex.  Now, because the setting is entirely fictional, any and all things related to ME are by definition fiction and not science.  Real world science literally has no application, because we have created this alternative reality.  Mass Effect behaves according to the Laws of Mass Effect Science.

One of the halmarks of science fiction is: "A story which adheres to a set of fictional scientific principles, while largely maintaining existing, real world scientific principles."  So, no, FTL and warp speed are not scientifically possible in our reality.   But FTL travel is possible in the fictional Mass Effect Universe, and as a SCI-FI story they have invented a fictional scientific explanation.  Because there is an explanation within the setting, it therefore now behaves according to certain rules within the story.  It is "science" within the story.  In addition, a SCI-FI story does not throw out science without some sort of explanation.

We are given an explanation of how FTL travel works, so that we don't need to throw out "real" science.

But, when a sci-fi story stops adhering to its own fictional scientific canon, then a strange thing happens to the audience and the story's credibility.  We lose those scientific laws which served to ground us in the universe.  We no longer have anything to hold onto.  And we therefore reject what has now happened as false. 

What does this have to do with armor?

Well, within the fictional Laws of Mass Effect Science, it is explained how armor works.  In game, there is a science of armor.  You cannot just bull**** something and have it be the same as something that is explained within the Codex.  And according to the Laws of Mass Effect Science, a track suit like Miranda's, or a stripper outfit like Samara's, are not going to behave the same way an environmental hardsuite would.

Again, we are given an explanation of how Mass Effect armor works so that we don't have to throw out the real science of how armor works.

The argument that, "It's fictional," is spurrious.  You are ignoring what Science Fiction is because it is convenient for your argument.



In Regards to: (2) No proof can exist
This argument is a little more difficult to rebut because you have built in a backdoor to escape through.  Really, I sense you want to argue two things:

1.  There is no proof that Miranda's suite isn't armored.
2.  No proof can exist that Miranda's suite isn't armored.

These are two slightly different arguments, and I will do my best to counter both of them.

First, I refer you to the Mass Effect Codex Entry on how armor works.

What it boils down two is:

• Armor needs to be layered.
• Effective armor has three layers:  Shields, Ablative Ceramics, and Kinetic Cloth.
• Effective armor uses extensive onboard computers to adminster first aid, direct kinetic barriers to stop incoming rounds, as well as a host of secondary aspects mentioned in the Codex, such as enemy recognition and target identification, navigation.
• Effective armor can seal the user in from environmental factors, such as atmosphere factors, pressure factors, chemical factors.  It also provides more resistance to radiation factors and heat factors, though one obviously cannot be made completely immune to these things.

This is the science of armor presented within Mass Effect.

Does this sound like Miranda's outfit?  No.  It does not.

First, we know that her tracksuite is not layered.  It has 1 layer, two if you count her underwear.  Though I don't her bra is made of kinetic material (would seem slightly uncomfortable to me -- kevlar bra with wired electronics).



This is literally not debatable.  We see 1 layer of material.  So we already know, given the codex entry, that additional and greater protection is possible with the additional layer of ablative ceramics.  Miranda's lack of ablative ceramic plating is a huge oversite.  The codex states:

When the armor is hit by directed energy weapons, the plates boil away or ablate rather than burning the wearer.

This means that everything that gets through her shields is going to do greater tissue damage then if she had some ablative material between her squishy bits and incoming lead.

Now, is this material the same sealed kinetic ballistic cloth that provides kinetic and environmental protection described in the codex?

I doubt it.  That material is described as being wired for an onboard computer, and has attached nodes that dispense medigel, etc.  Does this look like a thick, bullet proof cloth with electronic wires running through it?



It doesn't look that way to me.  Where is the computer?  Where is the wiring?  If she got hit the abdomen, i.e. the center of mass where any trained soldier is told to shoot, where is the dispenser to provide her with life saving medigel?  

The codex describes additional dispensers woven into the fabric which ooze "kinetically active goo" to quick fix holes and protect against a vacuum or hazardous environment.  Does Miranda's suit really look like it has the capability to repair itself in this fashion?

So, for your argument (2) No proof can exist Part 1: There is no proof that Miranda's suit isn't be armored

I offer:

• The material is one layer thick, and contains no ablative material to absorb the force/energy of oncoming projectiles, offering less protection than a hardsuite.
• The material is skin tight and thin, which does not imply that is is riddled with electronic gadgets that administer medigel and self repair.
• Such a skin tight suit, were it filled with mechanical and electrical components, would undoubtedly be uncomfortable.  Yet Miranda never takes it off.  She works in her desk with it on, she wears it casually when she's around the Illusive Man or heading non-combat oriented projects, she barely slips out of it for love making.
• Even if the suite is filled with all required components, and even if it isn't super uncomfortable, it is incapable of sealing itself against environmental influences.

This seems like pretty good proof that, given how armor works in Mass Effect, Miranda's suit is not armored.

In regards to: (2) No proof can exist Part 2: No proof can exist that Miranda's suite isn't armored

Well, I don't want to start a discussion of espistemology.  I think we can all agree what "proof" is.  And I would argue that given that the Mass Effect Universe, as a work of science fiction, is governed by scientific principles, explained in the codex, that there can exist "proof" of something, so long as there are codex entries on the subject.

And in this case, we are fortunate.  The codex explains how armor works.

Given the explanation of how effective combat armor works in the codex, Miranda's track suite is not armor.

In regards to: (3) Miranda's armor is made of a lightweight and protective material.
For someone who appears to be fixated on "proof" and "science" you must recognize this as pure speculation on your part.

There is literally no evidence, at all, that this is true.  Whereas I have now described what armor is made of in Mass Effect, and I have shown that Miranda's suit is made of a 1 layer, thin, latex like material with no room for the onboard components that could save her life in a fire fight.

I could even grant you that that wonder cloth is somehow protective.  It would be much like other "bullet proof" garments that one could use.  But this bullet proof cloths aren't really bullet proof.  You're still going to get cracked rips and stuff if you get shot with low calibur ammunition.  And they aren't going to stop high velocity rifle bullets.

Even if you assume that Miranda's suite is made of the kinetically active protective material mentioned in the codex, it's lack of an ablative layer means that all weapon force and energy is still going to be experienced by Miranda's body and not a piece of armor.

This means that even if she wears a protective garment all the time -- I guess she's paranoid -- she would still be a complete moron to wear it in the line of fire, where she frequently takes fire from soldiers armed with heavy weapons and assault rifles.

In Regards to: (4) There is no armor protection in game
You make one final argument here, i.e.:

You don't seem to last any longer than Miranda does if you had the same
hit points. In fact the armor pieces in game offer no protection
bonuses. That is a huge plot hole.

But this is a bit of a false argument.

You're now talking about a game mechanic.  It's a huge plot hole that you can't revive dead teammates on the SM with medigel.  It's a plot hole that freezing someone in solid ice doesn't kill them outright.  These cannot relaly be debated because they are gameplay mechanics.  It' like arguing that mushrooms shouldn't really make Mario huge, or arguing that in GTAIV, the cops wouldn't stop chasing you after 2 minutes.

Modifié par Uszi, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:48 .

[Schneidend]

Miranda's outfit could easily be made of the same metal-dipped polymers that ME1 light armor is comprised of. Not as protective as Shepard's modular N7, but that's because the N7 armor is the equivalent of ME1's medium or heavy armor.



And remember, Uszi, in Mass Effect computer chip technology has become so advanced in the Mass Effect universe that you can have them surgically implanted under your skin. ME computers can be incredibly tiny.



So, if you ask me if Miranda's outfit looks like it can have a full suite of gear, then yes, I'd say it does given what we know about the world in which she lives and the vast resources she has access to.

[JKoopman]

To be fair, there are people today that are working to weave microprocessors into fabrics, so I don't think the onboard computer is really one of the failings of Miranda's outfit. I find it perfectly plausible that she could have a full suite of electronics woven into the fabric of her uniform and interfacing with her either wirelessly or through some sort of unseen data node at the back of her neck. Whether there's enough room for medigel dispensers is anyone's guess, but then I think a far better argument there is how the hell does Jack's outfit have ANY of that?

In any case, Uszi, I tip my hat to you.

Modifié par JKoopman, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:07 .

[Dazaster Dellus]

Oh God! Is our country full of prudes or what?! lol! How many of you called in to the FCC during the Janet Jackson nip slip during the Super Bowl?! jk
Seriously though! I don't really mind it. I do wish they did have armor that you coulr have added to them if you wanted to. But what they had is fine. Plus Jack had a few alternate costumes she could wear as well so what is the big deal? Also please don't talk about realism because there are plenty of unrealistic things that still occur with or without armor. Like Shepard being able to survive bing hit by a laser beam that can cut through your ships kinetic barriers and hull. <_<

To appease everyone I think they should have more armor in ME3. More armor bought from merchants that is interchangeable. More character specific armor. Also special armor that can be upgraded to bigger or more sleek looking armor. Let's just be honest. ME2 clothing and armor choices were mad lame. They looked good but the alternate choices were just color changes. SMH! Really?!  I also think you should be able to choose what your character wears into battle. If you want them to go full uparmored battledroid style so be it. If you want them to keep their current original casual style...go ahead. If you want to send them in nekkid, fine(don't know where they will put there money, medi-gel, and ammo though.lol).

The bottom line is that it should be a choice. Not everyone is going to agree on this so the best way to solve the problem is to make a solution that will please everyone.