92 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

More about Mary Sue.

If you're writing about your Warden PC it's hard to avoid the Mary Sue charge. If you play through Origins, the Origins DLC, Awakening and Witch Hunt your warden can easily be level 35, which is Maker level awesome. Because of the in game provided back story and leveling, you have to work pretty hard, and make some fairly irrational decisions to avoid getting points in the Mary Sue test.

I love almost all my wardens, and I have a lot of them. Since I play the character it's very hard not to identify with her, and to be honest, I like wallowing in the game and its setting. So playing the game, I'm diving in deeper, not sticking to the shallows of MarySueism.

That's the difference between playing a game and reading about a game character. I may think my Tabris is little miss wonderful, you as a reader have no reason to agree with me unless I provide you with one. All of the knocks against Mary Sue can be summed up with one sentence: She is boring. It's possible to flout many of the rules and still write entertaining fiction. I've seen it done. To do it, you need solid writing skills and an awareness of what you are about.

Which is the other knock against Mary Sue. She's blissfully unaware of how dull she is. As is her creator.

There are several ways to avoid the problem of boredom. I'm mediocre at best at writing, so my recommendation is to find people you think write, whose works you enjoy and see what they do.

What I've noticed are some fanfics deliberately tone down their Warden's awesomeness, by starting before she becomes a Warden or by inserting mistakes she's made on the road to being the Hero of Ferelden. Other fanfics are not about the Warden at all. They simply use the setting to tell a story. Others use the characters in the game but go off in a different direction from the game. One wonderful version of this has the Cousland marrying Loghain.

To toot my own horn, my solution has been to use my Warden as a supporting character, set the story after everything in the game and see to it that my Warden made and will make bad decisions for plausible reasons.

Perfection is boring. Imperfection can be glorious. Strive for glory, not perfection.

Modifié par mousestalker, 14 janvier 2011 - 12:54 .

[Prisoner24601]

I'm going to toss in an unpopular and dissenting opinion here. Sure the game gives you a Sue to play (although I hate that term, as I find it sort of useless and imprecise, and I hate the litmus tests too). But that doesn't mean that the warden you use in your fic has to be one.

Because here is the thing: playing a Sue/Stu in a video game is fun, but reading about someone's Sue/Stu in a fic is boring. Perfect, asskicking, never wrong characters, that always get their way and everyone in the fic thinks are totally awesome (except the villains) are a bore to read about, because what makes written fiction entertaining isn't the same as what makes a video game experience fun.

You can de-Sue (or Stu or whatever you want to call it) a Warden quite a bit, but it takes some work. Giving a character a distinct personality, quirks, flaws that actually matter, having them mess up on occasion, sharing the spotlight with other characters, and not making the warden the center of all creation goes a long way in making a Warden into a fully dimensional character.

Also this I have to disagree with quite a bit:

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Trying to make the game fit to the story rather than the story fit to the game. Unless you're writing AU, what happened in the game happened. Deal with the canon. This links back to 'knowing game lore', but is more in line with deliberately twisting it for whatever reason and 'rewriting' what's written because the author 'just didn't like/agree with that bit'.

Some of the most entertaining fanfiction I've seen out there takes game canon and twists it into something different and interesting.   I don't see why this is a bad thing at all, and I would never let canon get in the way of telling a good story.

Modifié par Prisoner24601, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

You can de-Sue (or Stu or whatever you want to call it) a Warden quite a bit, but it takes some work. Giving a character a distinct personality, quirks, flaws that actually matter, having them mess up on occasion, sharing the spotlight with other characters, and not making the warden the center of all creation goes a long way in making a Warden into a fully dimensional character.

The problem is that, according to 'What makes a Mary Sue?', all Wardens get 'Sue' points purely because of their Origins and how Dragon Age treats them. Human Noble? Sue point. Family killed by major villain? Sue point. Tragically lost a friend? Got (almost) raped? Own a magically-bred mabari? Are called attractive even if you don't look it? Were given magical Grey Warden powers? Own a bad-ass sword/staff/whatever? Can destroy a horde of enemies with a single spell/melee attack? Win the game and are called a hero no matter what choices you make?

Most games net us 'Sue' points, because our characters will be orphans, linked to a magical past, part of a secret organisation, child of a god, suffering from amnesia, or just plain badass at killing things. So I seriously wouldn't worry too much about Sue-ism in fan fiction wrt your PC. A *completely* original character that *isn't* the Warden from the game is a different story.

[Raonar]

A tactic I myself chose to evade Sue-ism was to have multiple wardens, and each of the non-protagonists to have at least one area of expertise where they are far, FAR better than the main character. This also means I can depict the events of the game from the view point of others and have them be awesome because, unlike Leliana/Sten/Wynne etc, they are Wardens and, thus, MUST be badass.

[Prisoner24601]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The problem is that, according to 'What makes a Mary Sue?', all Wardens get 'Sue' points purely because of their Origins and how Dragon Age treats them. Human Noble? Sue point. Family killed by major villain? Sue point. Tragically lost a friend? Got (almost) raped? Own a magically-bred mabari? Are called attractive even if you don't look it? Were given magical Grey Warden powers? Own a bad-ass sword/staff/whatever? Can destroy a horde of enemies with a single spell/melee attack? Win the game and are called a hero no matter what choices you make?

Most games net us 'Sue' points, because our characters will be orphans, linked to a magical past, part of a secret organisation, child of a god, suffering from amnesia, or just plain badass at killing things. So I seriously wouldn't worry too much about Sue-ism in fan fiction wrt your PC. A *completely* original character that *isn't* the Warden from the game is a different story.

You're getting too hung up on lists and litmus tests.  Which is why I hate the term "Sue."  I'm not talking about anything that has to do with assigning points for special powers, tragic backgrounds or whatever.  I personally think it's entirely fine to work or embelish on what the game gives you.

People should toss the litmus tests and worry about crafting a character that that has genuine flaws and quirks, having personality conflicts with other characters, not focusing on their character as the center of all creation, not having their character be the best at everything, etc...

I mean, honestly, whether or not someone has a special pet or a shiny sword isn't going to stop me from reading a fic.  But if their warden is perfect, never makes a mistake, gets along with everyone except the evil villains, and has everyone tripping over themselves to get in their pants, I'm going to be bored as a reader.

Modifié par Prisoner24601, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:12 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

Also this I have to disagree with quite a bit:

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Trying to make the game fit to the story rather than the story fit to the game. Unless you're writing AU, what happened in the game happened. Deal with the canon. This links back to 'knowing game lore', but is more in line with deliberately twisting it for whatever reason and 'rewriting' what's written because the author 'just didn't like/agree with that bit'.

Some of the most entertaining fanfiction I've seen out there takes game canon and twists it into something different and interesting.   I don't see why this is a bad thing at all, and I would never let canon get in the way of telling a good story.

I'm not saying they can't be good stories. I'm saying it's a personal peeve of *mine* when stories do this, but don't acknowledge a major deviation from canon as AU (alternate universe). eg. A DA fic where the PC manages to convince Alistair and Loghain to work together and fight side by side against the archdemon might be a fine story and beloved by reviewers, but it it should be labelled as AU. I have nothing against AU Blight stories. I've written one myself. But I've labelled and acknowledged it as AU.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:51 .

[Prisoner24601]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I'm not saying they can't be good stories. I'm saying it's a personal peeve of *mine* when stories do this, but don't acknowledge a major deviation from canon as AU (alternate universe). eg. A DA fic where the PC manages to convince Alistair and Loghain to work together and fight side by side against the archdemon Cullen might be a fine story and beloved by reviewers, but it it should be labelled as AU. I have nothing against AU Blight stories. I've written one myself. But I've labelled and acknowledged it as AU.

Eh, I personally don't care if people label or acknowledge things like that as AU.  I assume that the author knows that it's not what's in the game, as well as the readers.  I don't think they need an extra tag for it.

I mean, I don't know.  I have a fic where I killed one of the companions.  Another where two origin stories intersect.  A thrid where Alistair and Morrigan do the dark ritual behind the warden's back.  I know that it didn't happen that way in the game.  I don't claim that it's canon (except in my head), but I also feel no need to slap AU tags all over them either.

I guess I'd see your point if it was Alistair and the companions in an American High School story or something.  But I sort of assume when I go in to read and write things myself that people are going to put their own twists on stuff.  

Modifié par Prisoner24601, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:18 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The problem is that, according to 'What makes a Mary Sue?', all Wardens get 'Sue' points purely because of their Origins and how Dragon Age treats them. Human Noble? Sue point. Family killed by major villain? Sue point. Tragically lost a friend? Got (almost) raped? Own a magically-bred mabari? Are called attractive even if you don't look it? Were given magical Grey Warden powers? Own a bad-ass sword/staff/whatever? Can destroy a horde of enemies with a single spell/melee attack? Win the game and are called a hero no matter what choices you make?

Most games net us 'Sue' points, because our characters will be orphans, linked to a magical past, part of a secret organisation, child of a god, suffering from amnesia, or just plain badass at killing things. So I seriously wouldn't worry too much about Sue-ism in fan fiction wrt your PC. A *completely* original character that *isn't* the Warden from the game is a different story.

You're getting too hung up on lists and litmus tests.  Which is why I hate the term "Sue."

No, I'm not. I'm just pointing out that the *popular* consensus of what makes a Sue is more than what you were describing. I've already said elsewhere that I also dislike the Sue term, and the ridicule that goes with it. I also said fanfic writers shouldn't be hung-up on whether or not their Warden suffers from 'Sue-ism' because it's a game character with an inevitably tragic past, super powers, and destiny to be a hero.

I mean, honestly, whether or not someone has a special pet or a shiny sword isn't going to stop me from reading a fic.  But if their warden is perfect, never makes a mistake, gets along with everyone except the evil villains, and has everyone tripping over themselves to get in their pants, I'm going to be bored as a reader.

And I agree.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Prisoner24601 wrote...

Eh, I personally don't care if people label or acknowledge things like that as AU.  I assume that the author knows that it's not what's in the game, as well as the readers.  I don't think they need an extra tag for it.

I mean, I don't know.  I have a fic where I killed one of the companions.  Another where two origin stories intersect.  A thrid where Alistair and Morrigan do the dark ritual behind the warden's back.  I know that it didn't happen that way in the game.  I don't claim that it's canon (except in my head), but I also feel no need to slap AU tags all over them either.

I guess I'd see your point if it was Alistair and the companions in an American High School story or something.  But I sort of assume when I go in to read and write things myself that people are going to put their own twists on stuff.  

Like I said, it's a pet peeve. Whether or not it's rational, maybe you can say I suffer from being a lore purist and a desire to respect the canon/characters. Just look at the rest of my list. I don't expect you or anyone to share that peeve any more than I'd expect you to share my peeve of people who walk verrry slowly directly in front of me. ;D

[Prisoner24601]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Like I said, it's a pet peeve. Whether or not it's rational, maybe you can say I suffer from being a lore purist and a desire to respect the canon/characters. Just look at the rest of my list. I don't expect you or anyone to share that peeve any more than I'd expect you to share my peeve of people who walk verrry slowly directly in front of me. ;D

Heh, fair enough.  I actually happen to share the rest of your pet peeves on that list as well as a severe annoyance of people who walk slowly in front of me.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

*laugh* Good to know ;D

[Mahkara]

I'll throw in my opinion (as we all know that I am genetically unable to avoid throwing in my opinion whether wanted or not!)



I don't think that having a Sue is a horrible thing. A lot of beloved stories have Sues, or what could be defined as Sues. Your Sue may be loved by a great many readers, as are Sues such as Harry Potter, Bella Swain, etc. etc.



But Sues are inherently *boring*. They do allow readers to get a look at the world, and to live vicariously through an awesome person. But most readers really don't care all that much about a 100% perfect character who everyone likes.



Bioware definitely gives you a Sue. I figure that you can do a couple of things with that.



1) Go for the Sue! Everyone loves your Sue! (Harem fic, FTW!) Your Sue can do no wrong! Your Sue is the Sue-iest Sue in the universe. Done well, I think that this can sometimes work. But to be frank, there's so much of this out there, and most of it is rather overdone (violet eyes alone set me off...) that it's probably not going to make for good fiction. I say probably, as undoubtedly someone has done a white haired, violet eyed enchantress who everyone obsesses over in a story that is fascinating and wonderful. But there are so many "OMG, noes!" in this category than "huh, that was interesting..."



2) De-sue the sue. Your Warden can be imperfect in interesting and consistent ways. I personally find the harem stories to be goofy, because I honestly can't imagine that the (long term) tastes of Alistair, Zevran, and Loghain align. If you are dating all three and it's working out, your character probably doesn't have much of a personality to stand in the way of how all three characters are radically different. A well developed Warden probably wouldn't get along with everyone - he or she might *hate* Anders for shirking duty and admire Loghain...or might think that Anders is the most entertaining person on earth, lets Alistair go free to be a happy go lucky Warden, and thinks that Loghain and Sten need certain sticks removed from certain bits of their anatomy.



3) Just omit the Warden all together, or reduce his/her involvement. I'll be frank in that I read ffic to read about the characters I know and love. Who do I know and love? Not your original characters. Particularly not your original characters who aren't particularly well developed. Yes, it's possible that you'll sell me on your version of Elissa/Solona/Neria/Kallian/Natia/forgetting other default names. It's possible! But it's unlikely, as I have a huge library of original fiction to read if I want original characters. I'm reading ffic for the characters I know and love - Alistair, Zevran, Wynne, Leliana, Morrigan, Sten, Dog, Oghren, Shale, Loghain, etc. I honestly find (fan) fiction that focuses a huge amount on original characters to be a turn off.

[DreGregoire]

Thanks for the links original poster and others. I want to say to the original poster not to get discouraged by some of the things people say to others. Not everybody is judgemental about the way somebodies fanfiction is and the ones that may sound like they are being judgement generally don't mean it that way. I've read a few less read stories that may not have been perfect in every way but I enjoyed them anyways. For me it's about seeing how other people have been impacted by Dragon age origins.

In regards to responses in the thread. Yeah ummm interesting posts. I still don't have a clue what you all are talking about *makes a wrinkle'e eyebrow face in stress* People are so judgemental it's downright scary to me. Don't do this, don't do that, or your writing will be considered a Mary whatcha mu call it. I think I know what people are saying but still I feel kinda bad for people who are reading these and say, "crap that's what I wrote." and perhaps give up in discouragement before anybody has a chance to encourage their creative pursuits.

Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with voicing your opinion and telling people what you like or don't like in fanficiton. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about such things, but I sometimes feel like people are trying to place round stories in square holes. *winks*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:05 .

[Raonar]

DreGregoire wrote...

Thanks for the links original poster and others. I want to say to the original poster not to get discouraged by some of the things people say to others. Not everybody is judgemental about the way somebodies fanfiction is and the ones that may sound like they are being judgement generally don't mean it that way. I've read a few less read stories that may not have been perfect in every way but I enjoyed them anyways. For me it's about seeing how other people have been impacted by Dragon age origins.

In regards to responses in the thread. Yeah ummm interesting posts. I still don't have a clue what you all are talking about *makes a wrinkle'e eyebrow face in stress* People are so judgemental it's downright scary to me. Don't do this, don't do that, or your writing will be considered a Mary whatcha mu call it. I think I know what people are saying but still I feel kinda bad for people who are reading these and say, "crap that's what I wrote." and perhaps give up in discouragement before anybody has a chance to encourage their create pursuits.

Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with voicing your opinion and telling people what you like or don't like in fanficiton. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about such things, but I sometimes feel like people are trying to place round stories in square holes. *winks*

Don't stress Dre. If you want to know what they are talking about, go here and enjoy some delightfully laughter-inducing wasted hours of your life.

[DreGregoire]

Raonar wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

In regards to responses in the thread. Yeah ummm interesting posts. I still don't have a clue what you all are talking about *makes a wrinkle'e eyebrow face in stress* People are so judgemental it's downright scary to me. Don't do this, don't do that, or your writing will be considered a Mary whatcha mu call it. I think I know what people are saying but still I feel kinda bad for people who are reading these and say, "crap that's what I wrote." and perhaps give up in discouragement before anybody has a chance to encourage their create pursuits.

Not that I'm saying there is anything wrong with voicing your opinion and telling people what you like or don't like in fanficiton. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about such things, but I sometimes feel like people are trying to place round stories in square holes. *winks*

Don't stress Dre. If you want to know what they are talking about, go here and enjoy some delightfully laughter-inducing wasted hours of your life.

Heh, thanks for the link. That article cleared up much for me. Flame bait. LOL. Gotta love it.

[Mahkara]

DreGregoire wrote...

In regards to responses in the thread. Yeah ummm interesting posts. I still don't have a clue what you all are talking about *makes a wrinkle'e eyebrow face in stress* People are so judgemental it's downright scary to me. Don't do this, don't do that, or your writing will be considered a Mary whatcha mu call it. I think I know what people are saying but still I feel kinda bad for people who are reading these and say, "crap that's what I wrote." and perhaps give up in discouragement before anybody has a chance to encourage their creative pursuits.

I think that part of the problem is in the way people write fanfiction.  Some people are literally just writing out their fantasies and posting them online for people who share them.  This is a perfectly fine thing to do.

Some are writing with the idea of trying to improve their writing/story telling skills/etc.  This is also perfectly fine.

Those in the first category probably shouldn't worry much about whether people think they're writing a Mary Sue, or a cliche, or much else. What does it matter if this is just for fun?  (OTOH, if someone claims to be genuinely writing just for themself, I don't want to hear them whine about how they haven't gotten enough reviews/hits/whatever.)

Those in the second category, though, really do worry about whether they're creating interesting and engaging stories that meet certain literary criteria.  Mary Sue characters are near universally derided (with some good reason) by most serious writers.  For this reason, writers puzzle over how to de-Sue a Warden (which is a prototypical Mary Sue character), how to write more engaging stories, etc. etc.

In its own way, I think that it would be nice for fics to come with big tags like, "I am writing this just as a personal fantasy.  Feel free to read, but please don't complain about it!" or "I am seriously trying to keep this interesting, offer concrit or whatever if you feel like it" just to make things easier for readers.  This will never happen, though.  Ever.

[Maria13]

But surely it's always a bit of both... I mean I could not write if it did not amuse or satisfy me but at the same time, it is my first FF and now I want to learn how to write and entertain... Obviously this duality does not make things easy for reviewers but I try to meet all comments with gratitude.

[mousestalker]

Everything Dragon Age related that has made me giggle in the shower has been written up, at least in story idea form. So Mary Sue or not, if I laugh, it gets written, even if it's just an outline.



I've had three stories tell themselves to me, one of which was for a secret santa thing. That's just plain awesome when it happens. When the whole story just springs from your brain like Athena out of Zeus. Prompt stories are great because they provide the seed and you can just prune the story as it grows.



What I find very difficult are stories without seed or inspiration. You start with an idea, 'what if the Warden was in a triangle with Alistair and Loghain?' for example and then try to let the characters find their way. My characters tend to be uncooperative and insist on developing hobbies, demanding higher wages or running off to Rivain. Sometimes they simply lie around and refuse to do anything. Hitting them with the plot hammer is less useful than you might think. Then they lurch about and moan.



Then there are transitional chapters where nothing of importance happen bu are necessary to advance the plot and develop characterization. I hate these.



/whinging

[Mahkara]

Maria13 wrote...

But surely it's always a bit of both... I mean I could not write if it did not amuse or satisfy me but at the same time, it is my first FF and now I want to learn how to write and entertain... Obviously this duality does not make things easy for reviewers but I try to meet all comments with gratitude.

Oh, yeah, I think for most of us it's somewhere in between.  If I wanted popularity, I'd go back to the nympho-mage.  But I do want to adhere to reasonably strict literary standards in my work and create a story that is genuinely engaging, with a well written plot, developed characters, lack of Mary Sues, etc.

But I do think that this dichotomy (or perhaps rather sliding scale) makes it difficult to discuss fanfiction.  Someone who is at the farther end of "I want to write stuff professionally and this is practice" will probably be all over the concrit, and really trying to figure out what makes a story good/bad.  Alternately, someone writing to amuse herself + a few readers who stumble upon it may really not want to be told that her protagonist is a Mary Sue, her plot is slow, things are getting a bit dull, etc. as she's content with it as is.

I think that most of the guides are written with the "serious fanfic" writer in mind, if you will.  So if you're just going, "hey, I got bored and wrote something, let's see what happens!" they're probably not of much use.

[Mahkara]

mousestalker wrote....

Then there are transitional chapters where nothing of importance happen bu are necessary to advance the plot and develop characterization. I hate these.

/whinging

I used to have these. Then I realized that if they were boring me, probably everyone else hated them, too.

Now I'm just figuring that my readers are smart enough to pick up the bits of plot that I leave out, and hoping that I characterize well enough that people can figure out the motivations without me adding excess stuff.

We'll see...I have a horrible feeling that I'm puzzling the hell out of people, but I'm happier with the outcome.    And it's kind of a game..."let's see how much I can leave out and still end up with a semi-coherent story!"

[DragonRacer13]

The first and foremost reason to write fanfic (IMO) is to have fun. If you aren't having fun, then what's the point, right?

But as far as finding a beta (which doesn't seem to have been expressed too much yet), it is not necessarily as hard as it looks. I have found that folks generally are flattered that you think them capable of being a good beta. My first beta was someone here on the forums whose posts I greatly enjoyed and carried much intelligence. I messaged her and popped the question, and she was delighted.

She has since gotten quite busy. Since I found myself in need of a beta again and already had several chapters of my fic up at FF.net, I ended up asking my best reviewer -- someone whose reviews are articulate and thoughtful. Basically, someone with a big "I'd Be An Awesome Beta" stamp on her forehead. She's never beta'd before and was flattered I asked... which, for me, the pleasure is all mine as she is a very good beta.

[Ardinal]

mousestalker wrote...

You may want to ask someone directly. Or you could set up a beta solicitation thread in this forum or a beta exchange group.

That is pretty much what I was considering. I think it would be fun. I don't think I have the skills to critique grammer and spelling, but I could at least offer encouragement and impressions. It would be a wonderful way to improve my writing and discover other writers here on the forums.

I have been reading fanfiction at night after spending time with my family. I travelled from Adelaide South Australia, to be in Toowoomba QLD for my birthday. I spent a night in Brisbane saving a car from the flood waters and I am so happy my family and friends are safe.

There are some awesome stories out there but I have discovered a pet hate...

I'm not really a fan of the paint by number sex stories lol. I have never read the words "pulsating" and  "manhood" so often in all my life. Although I guess lemon is a cheeky way to explore ones sexuality and be more confortable about sex. I will have to say that when I included a sex scene in my fanfiction it took me a little while to think of the words to explain the experiences without it being giggle inducing.

I shall set up the beta exchange thread soon, unless one has already been set up.

[inquartata02]

I can't write sex scenes because I can't stop giggling. Because, apparently, I'm twelve and just cannot keep a straight face.

[Mahkara]

inquartata02 wrote...

I can't write sex scenes because I can't stop giggling. Because, apparently, I'm twelve and just cannot keep a straight face.

Sex is really hard to write well.  Either sex or action is probably the hardest thing to write for *most* writers.

I have more trouble with sex since, yeah...giggling.  And there are just no good *words*.

Then again, my action scenes are sometimes confused with my sex scenes. Which is probably an epic!fail.

[Beocat]

Mahkara wrote...

Then again, my action scenes are sometimes confused with my sex scenes. Which is probably an epic!fail.

Surely you can't be as bad as some of the bad sex award winners...Read up on some of the lines Rowan Somerville used in The Shape of Her.  I'm sure your scenes will feel much better afterwards.    A friend of mine actually pointed out that interesting award last year and now I'm looking forward to seeing the winner for this upcoming year.