92 réponses à ce sujet

[Wereparrot]

I'd like to ask a question or two regarding 'Mary Sue.' I am not really familliar with this term but I think I understand it to be the 'perfect' character. But if so, I'd like to point out three 'Mary Sues' from literature: Morgoth and Voldemort appear to be perfect evil with no redeeming features whatsoever, and Aragorn appears to be an unflappable good; which leads me to ask: are these three really 'Mary Sues', and if not, can you give me a list of characters who are; and are these acceptable because 'it's Harry Potter and Tolkien innit', and in what way are these acceptable?

[Raonar]

Mary Sue is a very loosely used (read: abused) term. You'd be better off going here and reading about it. It's a really amusing read too. Basically, it's a character that breaks suspension of disbelief and doesn't have a high enough coolness factor to make up for it or just has certain traits and extra abilities/qualities that don't make sense in the setting or bla bla.

Modifié par Raonar, 17 janvier 2011 - 02:43 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Not just perfect in one aspect. Perfect. Period.

As in, for Aragorn to be a mary sue he would need to not only be the most kind and generous person in the book (and often told such by others), but blindingly handsome (usually with some sort of unique or unusual feature- violet eyes or some ****), brilliant, and possessing skills beyond what one would expect given his age, history, and experience. (since Mary Sue characters are usually fairly young. Aragorn, being near middle aged, is halfway out of the running by virtue of that alone.)

How other characters react is also part of the mary sue. Every woman wants him, every man wants to be him. That sort of thing. Characters will go on about how utterly beyond the moon they are. They can do no wrong.

And if they do have 'flaws' it's something absurd like saying they're "too generous," or "too modest." Or even something that really isn't a flaw but rather a condition or a character trait, like being shy or having an allergy.

Allergic to sunlight? Bizarre, unfortunate, not a flaw of character. Irrational, often violent, jealous streak? (to use an example from one of my fics) character flaw.

Too modest? That's the kind of **** you say on a job interview, not a character flaw. Self loathing... now there's a character flaw. (hm... I should play with that one, come to think of it).

Too generous? That's not even a bad thing! Intensely greedy or even a kleptomaniac, on the other hand, could make for an interesting character.

Aragorn, to return to your example, did have flaws. He was, especially at the beginning, insecure. He was afraid of taking up his place as the true king. His avoidance is noted given how fractured and divided the human lands were, and how much a single banner to unite them under would have helped at such a time. And because it is never entirely clear if he eventually did it because he knew it was the right and necessary thing to do, or because Elrond told him Arwen couldn't marry him until he was king.

Was he deeply flawed? No. But he wasn't perfect.

I've never read any of the Harry Potter books so I can't comment as to those. But to me, a perfectly evil character isn't a mary sue. Just a one-note villain. (and even then I would question: do they have a REASON to do what they do, or is it just 'ha ha! I'm evil so let's hurt people!' Motivation is a big part of characterizing a decent villain.

[maxernst]

I think another reason a character like Aragorn (or Gandalf, for that matter) gets a pass is that they're not the protagonists. Usually, Mary Sue is a point-of-view character. Tolkien's a true third person narrator, but even so, the story tends to revolve around the hobbits, who are quite ordinary.

[LupusYondergirl]

Oh, now there's a good point. I didn't even think of that!

[Raonar]

I'm pretty Sure, if we were to go by many of the existing definitions, Luthien Tinuviel is THE Mary Sue. She totally owned Morghoth and saved Beren from his dungeon... by herself, if you don't count Huan (who died because of some stupid prophecy anyway).

Modifié par Raonar, 17 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .

[Wereparrot]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Aragorn, to return to your example, did have flaws. He was, especially at the beginning, insecure. He was afraid of taking up his place as the true king. His avoidance is noted given how fractured and divided the human lands were, and how much a single banner to unite them under would have helped at such a time. And because it is never entirely clear if he eventually did it because he knew it was the right and necessary thing to do, or because Elrond told him Arwen couldn't marry him until he was king.
Was he deeply flawed? No. But he wasn't perfect.
I've never read any of the Harry Potter books so I can't comment as to those. But to me, a perfectly evil character isn't a mary sue. Just a one-note villain. (and even then I would question: do they have a REASON to do what they do, or is it just 'ha ha! I'm evil so let's hurt people!' Motivation is a big part of characterizing a decent villain.

Ok, point taken about Aragorn, but he is still probably one of the most perfect characters I've ever come across in a book. Apart from in kids' books, but that was back in the day.

And I said about Morgoth and Voldemort because my reasoning was that they're like the exact opposite; more like a 'dark' Mary Sue. But point taken aswell, they both had their reasons; Morgoth's jealousy and Voldemort's Hitler-like vision of a pure wizarding race.

This is not to suggest I dislike any of the characters given as examples; I was just curious as to what constituted a Mary Sue. Thanks.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 17 janvier 2011 - 03:57 .

[tartmuse]

Raonar wrote...

I'm pretty Sure, if we were to go by many of the existing definitions, Luthien Tinuviel is THE Mary Sue. She totally owned Morghoth and saved Beren from his dungeon... by herself, if you don't count Huan (who died because of some stupid prophecy anyway).

Oh, yes.  Who could forget Luthien Tinuviel, the fairest of all "mortal" creatures.  An elven maiden, bewitching, with starlight in her hair and the voice of a song bird.  As multitalented as she was beautiful (I know if I were to knit my hair into a gown, it wouldn't make me invisible, though I might wish that I was...), as well as a half-god, she even had the doomed love trope going on.  

Still love Tolkien to pieces though.  And I still love using Luthien as the bar by which to measure all Tolkien Sues.  You know you have a real winner when they top everything she did. 

Modifié par icey_cold, 17 janvier 2011 - 04:01 .

[OfficerDonNZ]

I think most things have been covered so far about writing fan fic.
Enjoy yourself and have fun, if that's not happening things aren't going to turn out well.

Know the Conon and Lore of the land you're playing in be it DA, Forgotten Realms or Star Wars. There's nothing worse than making a lore based booboo, unless you're writing a humour/parody piece then you might be able to get away with such a thing.

If at all possible avoid the dreaded Mary Sue, not the easiest thing to do when we're dealing with fic based on a video game. Something I think I've managed to avoid reasonably well so far. Could I do better? Probably.

Find a style of writing you're happy and comfortable with. It took me quite a while to come up with a style that I enjoyed using.

Have a reason for your tale. This may sound silly but if you don't have a reason for telling your tale things can go rather pear shaped very quickly. I've abandoned a few fics because I couldn't think of a reason to keep going with them.

I have two things that terrify me however, one is writing battle/fight scenes. Something I avoid as much as I can, which isn't as hard as you think. But they can't be always skipped over so I muddle along as best as I can. There other thing that gave me a few sleepless nights was writing my one and so far only sex scene, even if it could be called that. It's not an easy thing to write considering I was doing my best to keep it T rated. Though I'm quite pleased as to how it turned out.

[Mahkara]

maxernst wrote...


I have trouble writing both.  And your last comment reminds me of a friend of mine who was digging through a closet and found a poem that she had written when she was 12 or 13 in which a murder mwas described  in very sexually suggestive language--you know, "his sword thrust into her" sort of stuff.  She said she didn't think it was intentional.

At least in my suggestive action scene, both characters had a lot of UST going.  That's...better. Right? Right?  

[Mahkara]

klarabella wrote...

I know one fic with the Warden as a main character that doesn't set off my Mary Sue alarm, so I prefer stories that have other main characters. I would recommend this for newcomers, write a one-shot and try to keep one of the wonderfully flawed DAO canon characters in character. And stay away from the Warden for now.

I know...three.  But, yeah, there aren't very many where you get a Warden and go, "ooh, you're not an author insert!"  I mean, it's *hard* to avoid the trap, as the game basically gives you your own insert...

But, yeah, I 100% agree that if you're going, "huh, can I create an individual, interesting character?" that the best bet is probably to avoid the Warden.  TBH, the other characters are really interesting, and probably of more interest to readers, anyway.   (I mean, I'm reading fanfiction for the characters we all know and love, not for random characters who I go, "um...OK, who are you?")

[Mahkara]

Ardinal wrote...

Can you recommend any fanfiction writers that have gone on to become published authors?

I've published.

I'd imagine that a reasonable number of good ffic authors have been published in *something*.

That said, I'd be surprised if there were a great number who'd gone on to become big name authors that you've necessarily heard about (like, say, Steven King).  Then again, there aren't that many authors who *do* become famous.  Publishing a short story/essay/poem is much easier than publishing a novel, which in turn is much easier than becoming a well known author.

[maxernst]

I've published. Oh, you mean articles in Marine Geology, Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin and Journal of Sedimentary Research aren't what you had in mind?



On topic--yeah, Luthien is a pretty definite Sue (though likely not in the author-insert sense). I don't read Tolkien for fine characterization, particularly of female characters.

[inquartata02]

WeRtheBrox wrote...

You need to get over that right quick, because I agree with Oghren -- Malcolm and Líadan need to get to some serious boot-knocking.  Like now.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

LOL! You'll see! (But if/when that happens and there is boot-knocking, someone else will have to write the actual boot-knocking if anyone wants to, er, see it. A friend of mine did that for my fics in another fandom before. She got annoyed with me for wimping out and not writing the actual scenes. I was amused.

maxernst wrote...

I've published. Oh, you mean articles in Marine Geology, Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin and Journal of Sedimentary Research aren't what you had in mind?

On topic--yeah, Luthien is a pretty definite Sue (though likely not in the author-insert sense). I don't read Tolkien for fine characterization, particularly of female characters.

I was wondering if scholarly papers counted.

Modifié par inquartata02, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:18 .

[Mahkara]

inquartata02 wrote...

I was wondering if scholarly papers counted.

I think somewhat...

Although probably less so than say, a novel with a big name publisher or a several shorts in a major anthology and/or magazine.

I think that to be considered a "professional" writer by most standards you need either a novel with a reasonably well known publisher or at least 3 stories a year that pay over a certain amount per word with a magazine.  That's rather hard to do (and STILL pays less than say, working at McDonald's).  And by that standard, I'd guess that there are reasonably few ffic writers who are also pros.

But there are more than you'd think who've published something.  One for DA:O and ME is a professional editor, I believe.  Needless to say, her writing quality is quite good.  

[Ardinal]

OfficerDonNZ wrote...

I think most things have been covered so far about writing fan fic.
Enjoy yourself and have fun, if that's not happening things aren't going to turn out well.

Know the Conon and Lore of the land you're playing in be it DA, Forgotten Realms or Star Wars. There's nothing worse than making a lore based booboo, unless you're writing a humour/parody piece then you might be able to get away with such a thing.

If at all possible avoid the dreaded Mary Sue, not the easiest thing to do when we're dealing with fic based on a video game. Something I think I've managed to avoid reasonably well so far. Could I do better? Probably.

Find a style of writing you're happy and comfortable with. It took me quite a while to come up with a style that I enjoyed using.

Have a reason for your tale. This may sound silly but if you don't have a reason for telling your tale things can go rather pear shaped very quickly. I've abandoned a few fics because I couldn't think of a reason to keep going with them.

I have two things that terrify me however, one is writing battle/fight scenes. Something I avoid as much as I can, which isn't as hard as you think. But they can't be always skipped over so I muddle along as best as I can. There other thing that gave me a few sleepless nights was writing my one and so far only sex scene, even if it could be called that. It's not an easy thing to write considering I was doing my best to keep it T rated. Though I'm quite pleased as to how it turned out.

Thank you for offering these awesome thoughts on fanfiction.

Thank you everyone for your input, I've learnt so much just reading through this thread. I had heard "Mary Sue" and it's interesting to see how the term has evolved. I'm having a lot of fun with my fanfic, fleshing out my Warden's personality and trying out possible events in her life post DA.

[Corker]

maxernst wrote...

I've published. Oh, you mean articles in Marine Geology, Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin and Journal of Sedimentary Research aren't what you had in mind?

Journal of Aerospace Computing, Information and Communication and assorted conference proceedings, here! 

[Maria13]

Corker wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I've published. Oh, you mean articles in Marine Geology, Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, American Association of Petroleum Geologists Bulletin and Journal of Sedimentary Research aren't what you had in mind?

Journal of Aerospace Computing, Information and Communication and assorted conference proceedings, here! 

Hey... Showoffs *is jealous because has only ever had one article published* [Do letters in newspapers count?]