75 réponses à ce sujet

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Powers always take precedence over ammo b/c of the instant defense removal...

As in real life, speed = safety.

Using ammo as your primary defense stripper is always worse than powers b/c you have to expose yourself for much longer to get the same effect. You are also expending shots to break defenses that would be better used for killing instead.

That said, ammo powers are best used as a supplement, for the misc effects they give (cc, situational bonus dmg).

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 17 janvier 2011 - 04:28 .

[keboo]

I've completed ME2 three times and only picked Miranda for squadmate in the last playthrough. Can't belive I underestimated her. She's just amazing with her passive damage buff + Warp/Overload is everything you'd want from a squadmate.

And she looks hot

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

It's 9.6 s for most of the game and the strength of Overload is it strips shields instantly, allowing fast and powerful combos. This ability makes quite a difference, the small damage bonus over time doesn't help much

Its not small when 2 squadmates and shepardt use those ammo all the time.Far better then defense stripping powers and allowing those combos more often.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:18 .

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

It's 9.6 s for most of the game and the strength of Overload is it strips shields instantly, allowing fast and powerful combos. This ability makes quite a difference, the small damage bonus over time doesn't help much

Its not small when 2 squadmates and shepardt use those ammo all the time.Far better then defense stripping powers and allowing those combos more often.

Squadmates damage output is laughable, I only need their powers, on their own cooldown. If I could have those, I would left squadmates on Normandy.

Have you any idea how much extra damage your squad must get out of an Ammo power to compensate just one Warp explosion? I dunno exactly, but its a lot.

Can you give an example how ammo would increase damage output significantly? I can't think of one.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 18 janvier 2011 - 09:53 .

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus

Squadmates damage output is laughable, I only need their powers, on their own cooldown. If I could have those, I would left squadmates on Normandy.

For defense stripping,its better then their overloads or warps against enemies with barrier.

Have you any idea how much extra damage your squad must get out of an Ammo power to compensate just one Warp explosion?

??
Who said that warp explosions couldnt/shouldnt be used? I only discussed defense stripping powers vs. defense stripping ammo.

[lazuli]

Honestly it's best to use a combination of the two (ammo powers and defense stripping powers).

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

For defense stripping,its better then their overloads or warps against enemies with barrier.

How? Do you even know the ammo damage formula? Fully upgraded weapons and buffs reduce Tungsten Ammo 70% extra damage to 10-20 % extra damage - this saves maybe one shot if you're lucky, that's like 0.1 s.

Who said that warp explosions couldnt/shouldnt be used? I only discussed defense stripping powers vs. defense stripping ammo.

Ammo powers don't allow instant warp bombs, i.e. the ability to get the explosion exactly where and when it will cause most harm. That's better for me.

[xlavaina]

Miranda > Samara by quite a lot on insanity, especially if you're a vanguard.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

For defense stripping,its better then their overloads or warps against enemies with barrier.

How? Do you even know the ammo damage formula? Fully upgraded weapons and buffs reduce Tungsten Ammo 70% extra damage to 10-20 % extra damage

For one member of the squad it seem to be low.Not then three persons use that.How often i should repeat that? Did you ever tried it out?
And i also talk about squad ammo versions.Not the heavy variants.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:44 .

[kombra]

tonnactus wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

For defense stripping,its better then their overloads or warps against enemies with barrier.

How? Do you even know the ammo damage formula? Fully upgraded weapons and buffs reduce Tungsten Ammo 70% extra damage to 10-20 % extra damage

For one member of the squad it seem to be low.Not then three persons use that.How often i should repeat that? Did you ever tried it out?
And i also talk about squad ammo versions.Not the heavy variants.

Let's see, Tempest vs. shields:

Weapon DMG = Base_DMG * 1.5 * 2 = 3 * Base_DMG
(1.5 = damage mod vs. sheilds; 2 from 50% shield piercing + 50% damage upgrade)

Sqad disruptor ammo = 0.4 * Base_DMG

This means, you get a 13% damage increase against shields from disruptor ammo (this doesn't take into account any passive damage bonus which will reduce the ammo damage contribution even more).

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

For one member of the squad it seem to be low.Not then three persons use that.How often i should repeat that? Did you ever tried it out?
And i also talk about squad ammo versions.Not the heavy variants.

You have very limited control over your squadmates' weapons and targets.
Powers allow you to instantly strip defense layer. I am sorry, but no squad ammo power is even close.
You can do a Warp bomb by pressing 3 buttons. This is no contest.

Modifié par Kronner, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

Miranda without a single doubt. She provides way too many bonuses (+weapon damage) and plus she has Overload and Warp, the two most useful powers in the whole game on higher difficulties.

[aeetos21]

Instant warp bombs are just... I almost love them as much as charge. Plus slam is great CC when you encounter a charge fail - saved my ass so many times and you don't need to waste points on SW to get pull (which though is powerful it isn't as isntant as slam) so in terms of BP slam kicks reave's ass. If you're worried about armor - you have incendiary/inferno ammo. If you're relying on reave to bust armor then figuring out a BP is the LEAST of your problems.



Miranda... other than being a squishy there really isn't a single thing wrong with her gameplay wise she is the perfect squadmate - unless you're playing a class that has her abilities then she's kind of excess.



You can do insanity with either one really, hell you can do insanity with any order of squaddies - VG just pwns like that. Still for the tougher fights I find Miranda to be the most useful. In fact the only three fights you should really be concerned with as a VG are:



1) Grunt's loyalty mission (need a lot of firepower to bring down that Maw in time on insanity)

2) Collector ship (ESPECIALLY if you're doing a level 30 ME2 import OMG is that difficult)

3) Baby Reaper which, I know sounds dumb but if you're not packing enough firepower he'll take out the platforms along with you with them.



Of course since there's this beautiful little evil called "The Cain" that pretty much knocks out two of those fights leaving really only the Collector ship the main one you need to worry about your squad choice and if you have Garrus... Samara uses AR and Miranda uses SMG so whichever works better on shields. If you have the M-12 Locust then I'd go with Miranda since that thing strips all things barrier.



Sorry, didn't mean to write so much

[tonnactus]

kombra wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

For defense stripping,its better then their overloads or warps against enemies with barrier.

How? Do you even know the ammo damage formula? Fully upgraded weapons and buffs reduce Tungsten Ammo 70% extra damage to 10-20 % extra damage

For one member of the squad it seem to be low.Not then three persons use that.How often i should repeat that? Did you ever tried it out?
And i also talk about squad ammo versions.Not the heavy variants.

Let's see, Tempest vs. shields:

Weapon DMG = Base_DMG * 1.5 * 2 = 3 * Base_DMG
(1.5 = damage mod vs. sheilds; 2 from 50% shield piercing + 50% damage upgrade)

Sqad disruptor ammo = 0.4 * Base_DMG

This means, you get a 13% damage increase against shields from disruptor ammo (this doesn't take into account any passive damage bonus which will reduce the ammo damage contribution even more).

Now make this damage calculation for three squadmembers for 12 seconds and compare that with overload. In a system with global cooldown squad disruptor is just miles ahead saving one cooldown for overload and use other powers instead.

[ryoldschool]

aeetos21 wrote...

You can do insanity with either one really, hell you can do insanity with any order of squaddies - VG just pwns like that. Still for the tougher fights I find Miranda to be the most useful. In fact the only three fights you should really be concerned with as a VG are:

1) Grunt's loyalty mission (need a lot of firepower to bring down that Maw in time on insanity)
2) Collector ship (ESPECIALLY if you're doing a level 30 ME2 import OMG is that difficult)
3) Baby Reaper which, I know sounds dumb but if you're not packing enough firepower he'll take out the platforms along with you with them.


Sorry, didn't mean to write so much

I did a thread on "Vanguard on Grunts Loyality mission".  Kronner posted a video of where he takes it down with a shotgun only - he uses claymore reload trick.  I've since always used that strategy with evi on a vanguard, engineer and infiltrator.  Check out his video.  you usually have about two minutes left and the maw can't really get clean hits on you if you move about.

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


You have very limited control over your squadmates' weapons and targets.

Focus fire is all that is needed for example to strip the defenses of an enemy fast.And then just do warbbombs or what ever you like.

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

For one member of the squad it seem to be low.Not then three persons use that.How often i should repeat that? Did you ever tried it out?
And i also talk about squad ammo versions.Not the heavy variants.

You have very limited control over your squadmates' weapons and targets.
Powers allow you to instantly strip defense layer. I am sorry, but no squad ammo power is even close.
You can do a Warp bomb by pressing 3 buttons. This is no contest.

To be fair.  This discussion started based on me saying I'd rather have 2 defense strippers as squad mates.  He is saying one defense stripper, one ammo power type.  I prefer the 2 defnse strippers because I want to maximise the times the defense stripping power is out of cooldown.  I suspect in either case the squadies other powers might help towards the warp bomb or other cool effect.  It is why i like miranda, samara so much both strip defenses and have 1 part of the warp bomb.  But tali strips defenses and can AI hack, mordin can strip armor, and cryo.  My favorite set ups are sqaudies with apropriate defnse strip power for level, and either warp bomb potential or CC so 2 defense strips and 2 ccs or warp.  Ammo powers I usually ignore except on loyalty missions where I am stuck with them. 

[aeetos21]

ryoldschool wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

You can do insanity with either one really, hell you can do insanity with any order of squaddies - VG just pwns like that. Still for the tougher fights I find Miranda to be the most useful. In fact the only three fights you should really be concerned with as a VG are:

1) Grunt's loyalty mission (need a lot of firepower to bring down that Maw in time on insanity)
2) Collector ship (ESPECIALLY if you're doing a level 30 ME2 import OMG is that difficult)
3) Baby Reaper which, I know sounds dumb but if you're not packing enough firepower he'll take out the platforms along with you with them.


Sorry, didn't mean to write so much

I did a thread on "Vanguard on Grunts Loyality mission".  Kronner posted a video of where he takes it down with a shotgun only - he uses claymore reload trick.  I've since always used that strategy with evi on a vanguard, engineer and infiltrator.  Check out his video.  you usually have about two minutes left and the maw can't really get clean hits on you if you move about.

Couldn't find the vid on youtube though I have tried the moving around strategy and I always get hit - unless you mean engaging it at short range then no I haven't tried that yet. That aside I also think the OP will have enough problems to contend with just getting used to VG on insanity. While I'm certain it is possible I think it'd be best he/she just stick to the cain and bring whoever they want (ahem Miranda ahem!)

Thougn now I'm curious about this only shotty thing. Can any build work or do you need to be a level 30 or you need this and that or this and that?

[Bozorgmehr]

aeetos21 wrote...

Couldn't find the vid on youtube though I have tried the moving around strategy and I always get hit - unless you mean engaging it at short range then no I haven't tried that yet. That aside I also think the OP will have enough problems to contend with just getting used to VG on insanity. While I'm certain it is possible I think it'd be best he/she just stick to the cain and bring whoever they want (ahem Miranda ahem!)

Thougn now I'm curious about this only shotty thing. Can any build work or do you need to be a level 30 or you need this and that or this and that?

Here's Kronner's VG vs TM video: www.youtube.com/watch

To be a Vanguard you only need Charge and a shotgun; Claymore is just the most badass gun around and it can kill everything in the game (including Arnie - I believe Kronner has a vid about that fight too).

[Pinkflamingo22]

Miranda. duh.

I take no credit for this.

Modifié par Pinkflamingo22, 18 janvier 2011 - 07:47 .

[aeetos21]

Destroyer build plus inferno ammo plus claymore (no wonder he was getting insane damage). add in Mordin's heavy incinerate... I know, I'm being a jerk right now I apologize.



I never fought the mesher that range before, I always did it at long range and used either sniper and or AR primaiarly intermixed with HP and most of the time got nailed by the acid but now I'm curious. My normal build is Inferno, Squad Cryo, Heavy Charge, and I've been thinking about switching over to destroyer (saw another video that had it doing some insane damage). I don't use pull or SW instead I use slam and do instant warp bombs.



Hmm... I'm curious now, wanna try this out with my evi. Although it sucks you can't actually charge the thresher, that would've been sweet. Thanks for the vid!

[ryoldschool]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

Couldn't find the vid on youtube though I have tried the moving around strategy and I always get hit - unless you mean engaging it at short range then no I haven't tried that yet. That aside I also think the OP will have enough problems to contend with just getting used to VG on insanity. While I'm certain it is possible I think it'd be best he/she just stick to the cain and bring whoever they want (ahem Miranda ahem!)

Thougn now I'm curious about this only shotty thing. Can any build work or do you need to be a level 30 or you need this and that or this and that?

Here's Kronner's VG vs TM video: www.youtube.com/watch

To be a Vanguard you only need Charge and a shotgun; Claymore is just the most badass gun around and it can kill everything in the game (including Arnie - I believe Kronner has a vid about that fight too).

Bozorgmehr beat me to it.  As you can see from the video, its done at close range.  I've done it before the dcs at level 17 maybe ( had inferno ammo with vanguard ), and did it right after the dcs with engineer and infiltrator at about level 18 or 19.  I always use the Evi.  Did it last night with my engineer with evi ( plus used incenerate ) and finished with 2:21 left on the clock.

[aeetos21]

And no cain or other HW? Shiit.... someone was having a party and nobody told me, makes me mad lol

[aeetos21]

And now to reward you all for this enlightening tip, charging krogan meets charging vanguard






hehehe