163 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

If they didn't before ME2, on their own/from the Turians/by espionage, you almost certainly handed Cerberus the plans for them during ME2, No reason Cerberus wouldn't have passed on such technology for human benefit.

[Sajuro]

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

The key seems to be somehow disabling their core or disrupting their mind. Quarians will have little use outside of fodder or logistics unless you somehow plan on upgrading the entire fleet with thanix cannons.

Hell I doubt any alliance ships have Thanix cannons on them.

hmmmm, how could the Quarians possibly interrupt an AI?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Yes you could put weapons on the ships but how many of those ships would even have the power to use the weapon? 5%? I honestly don't see the logic of even trying to make the Fleet stronger when you could put weapons on other ships that are up to date and could hold a weapon.



It seems like a waste of valuble resourses to throw away trying to make the 2nd rate ships of the MF battle ready when you could put less effort into a normal ship that isn't a hundred years old.

[Praetor Knight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If they didn't before ME2, on their own/from the Turians/by espionage, you almost certainly handed Cerberus the plans for them during ME2, No reason Cerberus wouldn't have passed on such technology for human benefit.

Unless TIM is just a really greedy liar, I hope not though.

[Praetor Knight]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

It seems like a waste of valuble resourses to throw away trying to make the 2nd rate ships of the MF battle ready when you could put less effort into a normal ship that isn't a hundred years old.

If the ships work then use them where they serve the greatest benefit.

You don't take a jalopy to race in NASCAR, you use it to get to work

or maybe a Destruction Derby (the suicidal ship idea).

[Someone With Mass]

I think they should split up. Have the major part of them in the front, coordinating attacks and whatnot, while the rest hangs out in the back, repairing and supporting other ships from the other fleets.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:21 .

[Nashiktal]

Its doubtful even Alliance ships can stand up to the reapers. Unless they all somehow were magically upgraded with Thanix Cannons too. Depending on how much you pissed off the Turians in ME1, I doubt that will happen.



(Spoilers for the latest ME novel featuring anderson)



And considering Anderson was kick from his position as either councilman or otherwise, I doubt he will be pushing the alliance to prepare for war.

[Vaenier]

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

[StarGateGod]

Vaenier wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Lemme see: We're facing genocidal AI starships, which are still very much on the machine end of things. Quarians are renowned galaxy wide as experts on AI, starships, and technology in general. Nah, screw it: they're clearly much more useful getting themselves slaughtered in a hopeless and useless war.

Quarians are seperate from their ships. Their ships do not need to be stuffed completely with warm bodies in order for them to be able to take a shot. The Quarains can do their techno stuff all the way behind the scenes, or from the good ships.

the fact that most ships in the fleet where found dead in space demonstrates their ability to improvise thats very handy in war. Now imagine what they could do with some real ships

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

It seems like a waste of valuble resourses to throw away trying to make the 2nd rate ships of the MF battle ready when you could put less effort into a normal ship that isn't a hundred years old.

If the ships work then use them where they serve the greatest benefit.

You don't take a jalopy to race in NASCAR, you use it to get to work

or maybe a Destruction Derby (the suicidal ship idea).

And that's exactly what I've been saying the Fleet should be used for. Slam them into Reapers that's all they're good for.

[Praetor Knight]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

If the ships work then use them where they serve the greatest benefit.

You don't take a jalopy to race in NASCAR, you use it to get to work

or maybe a Destruction Derby (the suicidal ship idea).

And that's exactly what I've been saying the Fleet should be used for. Slam them into Reapers that's all they're good for.

Not all of the Fleet needs to be sacrified though, only the actually old, and hard to maintain ships should be used like that.

They do have newer ships, and maybe give the Quarians a Space Station or two for non-combatants so they at least have a space to live in.

The Liveships with the agricultural facilities should not be sacrificed for example, they would be too valuable for that.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Yes you could put weapons on the ships but how many of those ships would even have the power to use the weapon? 5%?

Hence the magic plot device of 'capacitors' and 'batteries', fantasy tools which can store energy in excess of that which can be constantly produced.


(As an aside, Thannix cannons can be put on craft as small and cheap as fighters. Power generation is not going to be an unsurmountable problem.)


Besides the total 'out of the butzoo' 5 percent statistic, that's still a rather significant number. Five percent of fifty thousand is still twentyfive hundred craft, previously not in service, now capable of cruiser-level firepower.

And, of course, you still have another forty-seven-point-five thousand ships for logistical support in a galaxy in which logistical support is the limiting factor in galactic war.

I honestly don't see the logic of even trying to make the Fleet stronger when you could put weapons on other ships that are up to date and could hold a weapon.

'Up to date' ships aren't going to be disproportionately more effective than old ships. The Thannix guns aren't going to get stronger and better ranged (the gun and the targetting software are independent), their shields aren't going to outlast  against Reaper-fire (which could blow even modern cruisers away in a single shot).

There is a shortage of warships, and any attempt to outfight the Reapers is going to rely on retrofit of civilian craft as well. Survival and armament are going to be nigh identical to the civilian-supplement retrofitted craft, regardless of whether or not they're from the Migrant Fleet 200 years ago or bought off the lot now. The Thannix/weapons to be attached are independent of the craft, and the endurance isn't going to survive Reaper fire regardless. The only plausible differences are in speed... which is, in and of itself, a different beastie entirely in the context of ME universe, in which if you aren't a dog-fighter, it isn't much of a difference.

Whenever you're faced with a choice of losing relatively equally obsolescent items in a mass-fielding strategem, it's always better to lose what's less useful in other areas. Neither a Quarian civilian freighter with a gun or an Asari freighter with a gun are going to last mono-e-mono against a Reaper on their own military merit: they're for numbers and support, and nothing else but. No Alliance/Council ship is going to win by any means other than numbers gainst the Reapers. Losing a near-dead Quarian vessel that can only shoot and move versus losing a perfectly normal vessel that's otherwise better outside of combat is a better trade.



NOT, and I'll repeat this again, that the only great benefit of the Quarian Flotilla is in fighting themselves.

Even if we accept each and every one of your points without dispute, the only way the superior civilian craft can be free to enter the battle in the first place is if someone takes their duties and roles to pick up the slack.

You think modern freighters will do better if slapped with a Thannix? Sure. Agreed. But that freighter needs to be freighting as well as fighting: the war effort depends on it.

But even a good-for-nothing Quarian vessel that can do absolutely nothing but carrying and moving can stand-in for that freighter. A Quarian ship doesn't simply add itself to the battle fleet: it can add someone else to the battle fleet on its behalf.

Let's invalidate all Quarian vessels. They're inferior. They'd not do as well. They're not even worth cannon fodder.

They still can enable fifty thousand other vessels to be available to fight.

And if there aren't fifty thousand vessels ready to move into the fight? Then the surplus of migrant fleet can simply add to the desperately needed logistical lift in all respects.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I can't take any more stupid today after work.

[DaVanguard]

why have people decided that every ship we can get must fight or is useless. 50,000 ships that can carry 17 million people can carry alot of supplys or nearly 17 million ground troops(Krogan need to go some where) but thats just me.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dean seeing that I'm going to have a game import where I saved the Council and now the Turians and humans are best friends now sharing patrols and even patroling together the thaix canon technology is going to be widely available to not only the Turians but also to the Aliance. I also am guessing that there is a limit to how many can be made in a short time (Depending on the time frame from ME2 -ME3) So if there is a massive surplus of Thaix Canons then sure by all means give them to the Migrant Fleet and they could be mildy useful in a fight.



But I'm guessing that there aren't going to be a surplus of Thaix canons out there to just give to a dying fleet. If given a choice between puting 10 Thaix canons on a real fighter or 10 Thaix canons on the Fleet than I'm pretty sure any sane person would pick the rela fighter. Because it can move faster than anything the Mirgant Fleet has and is going to be reliable meaning we don't have to worry about it breaking down in the middle of a fight.



This is going to be a war. Resources are going to get strained quickly and we have to decide who gets those resources is it going to be ships that are newer, are more reliable and are probably more mobile. Or are we going to give them to a fleet of century old barly holding together wrecks?



Like I said if we ME3 starts out with us having a huge surplus of canons then sure give it to the fleet once everyone else has had one instaled first.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I can't take any more stupid today after work.

Hate to say it, but you were asking for that Vaenier, and it already happened that killing the drone worked, so why deviate from what works?

[Nashiktal]

Vaenier wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

Thank you for the unwarranted hostility. I'll keep that in mind next time I decide to take you seriously.

In any case the attack on sovvy proved they are immune to ship "small arms" fire. You had an entire fleet of cruisers (which were supposed to be dreadnoughts initially, but a slight screw up internally changed them to cruisers) firing all their available ordinance into sovvy with little to no effect. Sovvy casually begins wiping out the fleet as his (i'm assuming mass effect barriers) take the fire like rain pattering off of a windshield.

Then as shep defeats zom- Saren (who glows a crackling red when first transformed,) sovvy instantly glows red, begins streaking lightning off of him, and slowly drifts down as if he suddenly lost power. Now out of nowhere, even though not a minute before giant cruiser attacks were pattering harmlessly off of him, two fighters and a frigate can magically penetrate his armor?

Gee I wonder if their somehow connected?

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I can't take any more stupid today after work.

Wait, are we both just being dicks now? Before I was the depressed cynical, hates life guy and you were serious and smart and stuff. but now you are being just as much of a dick as I am.

Thank you for the unwarranted hostility. I'll keep that in mind next time I decide to take you seriously.

[stuff cut to save space]

Gee I wonder if their somehow connected?

You are welcome.

You should not set your standards in writing so low. Do you also like the idea of putting C4 inside the ships control consoles so they can explode and kill people when the shields get shot?

Modifié par Vaenier, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:22 .

[didymos1120]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Lemme see: We're facing genocidal AI starships, which are still very much on the machine end of things. Quarians are renowned galaxy wide as experts on AI, starships, and technology in general. Nah, screw it: they're clearly much more useful getting themselves slaughtered in a hopeless and useless war.

Correction. The Reapers are only half machine, they are as organic as they are inorganic. The Quarians may be experts in the areao of technology. But when compared to the Geth who think faster, are more intellegent, and have access to more resourses and technology the Quarains are at best second.

That's why I said "still very much on the machine end of things."  They may make use of organics, but it's in a very artificial way.  And based on what we've seen in the derelict and of what became of Sovereign's scrap, they're still mostly machine, even if the part in control isn't.  If it came down to an either/or choice, and I was looking for possible ways to mess up a Reaper, I'd take the engineering/software people over the biology people.  There's more for them to break.

[Interactive Civilian]

Nashiktal wrote...

Gee I wonder if their somehow connected?

I always thought it would be rather far-fetched for that situation to have been cause and effect, and assumed the timing was done for cinematic value.

Not that I have any stake in this argument, or have any actual knowledge either way beyond what we all saw happen in the game. Just my interpretation of events.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

The reapers have so far proven to be immune to "small arms" fire. Only when Sovvy's mass effect core failed was he destroyed by three shots. (One normandy, two fighters)

How exactly was it proven they are immune to multiple small attacks? Please dont say because Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I cant take any more stupid today after work.

Shep had to kill the remote controlled drone... I can't take any more stupid today after work.

Wait, are we both just being dicks now? Before I was the depressed cynical, hates life guy and you were serious and smart and stuff. but now you are being just as much of a dick as I am.

I'm still seriously a smartass and stuff. Plus, I've always been as much as a dick as you: I just keep it in my pants more often.

Abstinence! It's the only 100% guarantee to avoid conceiving an abortive argument!

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm still seriously a smartass and stuff. Plus, I've always been as much as a dick as you: I just keep it in my pants more often.

Abstinence! It's the only 100% guarantee to avoid conceiving an abortive argument!

Thats more like it. lol

[PARAGON87]

The Migrant Fleet can only join the fight, and survive as a species, if the quarians and geth reach a definate and lasting peace.

With a peace brokered, quarians can resettle their homeworld of Rannoch, be able to shield their race by not sending them all into the fight, and the geth can gain allies of the entire galactic community, and also be able to join the fight.

Really, this adds TWO distinct and powerful fleets to Shepard's upcoming alliance, (as EDI said, "[contacting the geth] is like contacting an entire galactic arm".)

I think that the Reapers don't stand a chance if everyone is allied and strong.

Modifié par PARAGON87, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:29 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Hey guys how about we stay on topic. If you want to continue arguing could you kindly take it to a PM?



@ didymos1120 I think it would be unfair to assume that they are mostly machine just because they look that way on the inside and out. Its very possible that the majority of their organic components are located in the 'brain' of the ship. Besides if the Quarians can't do anything about the Geth who are 100% machine than I don't see how they could do much against a 50% machine that is many centuries ahead of us in everything. Now a joint Quarian/Geth/Salarian idea to affect the Reapers minds might be a valid idea since it would take both an AI and organic approach I believe to affect the Reapers.

[Vaenier]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

@ didymos1120 I think it would be unfair to assume that they are mostly machine just because they look that way on the inside and out. Its very possible that the majority of their organic components are located in the 'brain' of the ship. Besides if the Quarians can't do anything about the Geth who are 100% machine than I don't see how they could do much against a 50% machine that is many centuries ahead of us in everything. Now a joint Quarian/Geth/Salarian idea to affect the Reapers minds might be a valid idea since it would take both an AI and organic approach I believe to affect the Reapers.

Nobody in the galaxy has any expereince with organic computers except Cerberus. Overlord is the only known example of using an organic brain to do computing. So if anyone was going to hack an organic reaper brain, it would be because of TIMs help.

I dont think Reapers have any real organic parts though. Geth were crawling all around inside it and still saw them as the pinicle of inorganic life. If they saw that reapers were merely a brain inside a metal shell, they probably would never have joined them.

Modifié par Vaenier, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:41 .