292 réponses à ce sujet

[morrie23]

Nightwriter wrote...

*snip* who needs to be emotionally connected to the colonists when you have emails, now I'm set, now I am so motivated and focused, I don't even need to meet these people or learn anything about them because those emails are so freaking motivating, what more could a girl ask for.

Hang on just a minute, we met Delan! If he doesn't make you care enough to make sure that every last colonist is turned into slush puppies, then frankly you're dead inside.

[Nightwriter]

Oh you know you're right. There was Delan. I contemplated calling the Collector General and offering him help with the abductions after that. 

Actually if you look on the Collector General's facebook page it will say:

Collector General God that Delan was a douche.
             - Commander Shepard likes this.

Collector General You! It was because of you I couldn't snag that douche Delan.
             - Commander Shepard Sry.

Epic777 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I submit to the court of public opinion that Nightwriter might well be a misanthrope.

I beg your pardon, I'll have you know 'twas humanity which created french fries, and I am, therefore, its undying fan.

However, in ME1 you had to SAVE THE WHOLE GALAXY KA-POW! and there was AN ATTACK ON THE CITADEL EPIC! It was all so important and exciting.

And then ME2, TIM's like, "Oh yeah, there are these colonies that no one really cares about and they're like, disappearing, people think it's weird."

And my Shepard said, "THIS IS SO IMPORTANT I MUST JOIN A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BEFORE EVEN TALKING TO THE COUNCIL OR ANYTHING OMG!" I was just like whatever.

?
me1 you you were looking for the conduit, there was something about the reapers but it was mostly stopping saren by stopping him gaining the conduit:whistle:

This post

confuses me

so I'll just let it go.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .

[cachx]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

nutshell43 wrote...
...I don't expect Citizen Kane, Bioware needs mainstream appeal after all, but a bit more Dark Knight and less Transformers would have been nice.
....

This.

As awesome as TDK was, it also had a ton of plot holes /inconsistencies. So it seems it has more in common with ME2 than you think. .

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
If
only they'd attacked Feros. I would care. How I would care. How pissed
I would be. I'd be like, "Do you know what I had to go through to save
that colony?! I'm coming for you, you f*cking four-eyed crickets!!! I'm
coming!!!"

More or less this. The E3 trailer gave me
the impression we would go to Feros at one point, despite the Reaper
mission and Feros having a similar mission layout....

*Flashback to KOTOR discussions on how Taris was meaningless because it gets blown up after you leave*

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

But all earnest french fry fans can tell you they were created in Belgium, not France.

And ah, but in ME1 you got the sense that the Council was involved with what you were doing, they cared about your actions, you met with them repeatedly, you got the sense that Saren was an issue they cared deeply about, it all felt important.

How did they care, except when it directly affected them? They offered no support, they just read your end-mission reports and criticized you regardless. They sent you after a man who could be anywhere in a third of the galaxy. They wouldn't even respond to a Geth invasion of a Citadel ally.

Infact, the only point at which they took Saren seriously enough to move was when they found he had already made a cure for the Genophage.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

This post

confuses me

so I'll just let it go.

That haiku just stunk.

Nightwriter, we expect more.

Get in the game, girl.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But all earnest french fry fans can tell you they were created in Belgium, not France.

And ah, but in ME1 you got the sense that the Council was involved with what you were doing, they cared about your actions, you met with them repeatedly, you got the sense that Saren was an issue they cared deeply about, it all felt important.

How did they care, except when it directly affected them? They offered no support, they just read your end-mission reports and criticized you regardless. They sent you after a man who could be anywhere in a third of the galaxy. They wouldn't even respond to a Geth invasion of a Citadel ally.

Infact, the only point at which they took Saren seriously enough to move was when they found he had already made a cure for the Genophage.

They cared. He was a Spectre and his actions made them look bad. Very deeply did they care. Their willingness to help you was, of course, less than desired, but the mission still felt important.

Because from the beginning they implant you with the idea that Saren's bringing back the race that's going to wipe out galactic civilization. You feel like the threat is big. The Collectors are simply abducting fringe colonies. You don't feel like the galaxy's at stake.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's... less of a substantiated claim and comes off far more as a desperate pleading. 'You care! You have to care!'



Shepard, and his importance, were always tangental. Even making him Spectre was a political bone to be thrown to humanity: give a newbie Spectre a nigh-impossible task of taking down the Best of their Best. If he succeeded, all well and good. If he failed, it 'proves' Humanity isn't ready for advancement.



It was never the Council who felt or called Saren the galactic threat it was. It was Anderson and Shepard, Anderson in large part because of his own personal history, and Shepard because of the visions. And while the visions were nice, they got resolved in ME1: there was no more purpose or reason for them afterwards, unless you want a different set of visions. Otherwise, for the vast majority of the game what was at stake? Geth fighting a low-scale war with the Humans? Saren looking at an army of Rachni, which was a disaster?



The Reaper end-goal, IE galactic threat, was always the same in ME2. The means were just different: you had no idea what the conduit was in ME1, and no idea why they were taking human colonies in ME2.

[AlanC9]

Nightwriter wrote...
Because from the beginning they implant you with the idea that Saren's bringing back the race that's going to wipe out galactic civilization. You feel like the threat is big. The Collectors are simply abducting fringe colonies. You don't feel like the galaxy's at stake.

You don't? Even knowing the Collectors are working for the Reapers?

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:55 .

[Zurcior]

slimgrin wrote...

I can't watch the whole thing, too long. He does a fair bit of nitpicking which is easy to do. A couple of points are indeed valid:

1- Shepard never gets to challenge Cerberus. So much for choice and consequence, or reactivity.

2 - Bioware sacrificed plot for character development....in a video game. In a book? Sure that can work. Not sure about a role playing game which is supposed to follow some sort of arc about your character.

In the end, it could very well be that the stories for both games are overrated.

1- "I don't care what they did or what you say, I'll never work with terrorist!"
And by the time of Freedom's Progress, It's safe to assume TIM sabotaged Shep's relationship with the Council and Alliance. - "We've recieved disturbing reports that you are working for Cerberus, a devout enemy of the Council." How the heck did they find that out so fast? And it's bad enough that they don't believe the reaper threat. With all that to consider, you can say that even if we were given the option to truely challenge Cerberus, it would all be for nought seeing that everyone else Shepard could turn to has turned their backs on him/her.

[Il Divo]

Nightwriter wrote...

They cared. He was a Spectre and his actions made them look bad. Very deeply did they care. Their willingness to help you was, of course, less than desired, but the mission still felt important.

I feel this is somewhat of a cop out, the rough equivalent of saying Mass Effect 2's main quest 'felt important' because human colonies went missing. The Council was not even fully comfortable with the idea of making Shepard a Spectre, but having caught Saren they were made to look rather foolish and left with very little room to maneuver. They really seemed content to strip Saren of Spectre status and make him an outlaw, but that wasn't good enough for Udina hence sending Shepard after him.  

Because from the beginning they implant you with the idea that Saren's bringing back the race that's going to wipe out galactic civilization. You feel like the threat is big. The Collectors are simply abducting fringe colonies. You don't feel like the galaxy's at stake.

But we are given the knowledge that Collector plot = Reaper plot, so it is ultimately going to be something of 'galactic significance' even without knowing what it is. I did think however that the purported threat was not meant to be an overt 'save the galaxy' type mission, which it really wasn't. Human reaper = bad, but not quite 'galaxy gonna burn' bad. Or at least not yet.

In this way, it was closer to the Kotor 1- Kotor 2 dynamic. Kotor 1 had a very clear 'Save the galaxy' from Malak style main quest, much like Mass Effect 1. Big, obvious villain - you need to stop him. Kotor 2 has the Sith take the 'shadow war' approach, preferring to keep their plans quiet/obscure without being too obvious how the galaxy is at stake, quite similar to Mass Effect 2's approach. The Collectors are a fringe threat, trying to avoid attention and Shepard is dealing with other tasks while fighting them.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:02 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

furryfox96 wrote...

Why can't people just accept the story for what it is. You don't need to criticize the flaws at all. Just go with it and enjoy what Bioware wants the story to be about. Not what you want the story to be about.If so go write your own story and be happy with that and not tell others what it should of been.

This is called being a fanboy/girl, where the writers are perceived incapable of doing wrong and we should accept their work regardless. Have you ever claimed a movie was awful? By your logic, I should be well within my rights to tell you "Go make a better movie or shut up." Contrastive criticism is the foundation for a superior product. If people had not complained about aspects of Mass Effect, specifically technical stuff. We would not have Mass Effect 2.

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Yeah, I watched the video as far as the first of his five points and just thought: "That's your criticism? Because Bioware didn't use the resurrection as an exposition to change for Shepard?"
I think they just wanted to create some dramatic effect and create a new ship and killing shep and destroying the Normandy achieved that.
I can't really criticise Bioware for not going deep. the game was 40 hours of fun and didn't lack character depth at all.

One of his primary arguments was Shepard lacked depth and frankly, that is fact. Shepard rode shotgun whilst each individual squadmate took center stage four an episodic mission before being forgotten. When the trilogy is supposedly Shepard story, it should have allowed Shepard to develop alongside the characters but still remain the focus.

lazuli wrote...

I started to watch one of his videos. Then he said that Lift (ME1) and Pull (ME2) were identical, so I stopped.

Honestly, they are not widely different. Granted, this is due to the side effect of Lift where any forward movement would propel the enemy in your direction. Excluding that, one lifts an enemy straight into the air, the other pulls them to the side. Both remove them from cover and render them defenseless. Identical may be an incorrect assessment but they are quite similar.

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

I tried to watch it but I keep falling asleep.

You're not trying to watch them all at once are you?

I watched his entire character analysis in one sitting. Hell I did so with every one of his vids. While I certainly do not agree with every argument he makes, especially not the nitpicking. He has some truly worthwhile criticism and his concept of merging Miranda/Jack, Samara/Thane, Zaeed/Jacob and dropping Grunt and Kasumi altogether is definitely well thought. Coincidently, I am a similar opinion of much of what he stated.

[cachx]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Because from the beginning they implant you with the idea that Saren's bringing back the race that's going to wipe out galactic civilization. You feel like the threat is big. The Collectors are simply abducting fringe colonies. You don't feel like the galaxy's at stake.

You don't? Even knowing the Collectors are working for the Reapers?

Not to mention, that finding out their exact plans is part of the journey as well.

[lazuli]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

lazuli wrote...

I started to watch one of his videos. Then he said that Lift (ME1) and Pull (ME2) were identical, so I stopped.

Honestly, they are not widely different. Granted, this is due to the side effect of Lift where any forward movement would propel the enemy in your direction. Excluding that, one lifts an enemy straight into the air, the other pulls them to the side. Both remove them from cover and render them defenseless. Identical may be an incorrect assessment but they are quite similar.

That was my point.  Pull is not Lift.  It may have taken Lift's place, but it is not the same power.

[samurai crusade]

Vaenier wrote...

samurai crusade wrote...

Wow... those videos were lame. He's wrong on so many levels. and the background music. terrible ME has a great score. He should've just used that. haha

I do not like you. Bioware knows they can produce crap and people like you will buy it anyway, meaning they wont make good stuff for the rest of us. Get some standards damnit, demand competant writing and a decent story for your games. Or just go play Halo like I did if you want a good shooter.

You hate me because ME is my favorite game series?  I've never played HALO in my life... hate the concept, hate what I've seen.    I see nothing wrong with ME or the story... in fact I defend it.  If you have a problem... find a new game to play... you can play Halo.

[Il Divo]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

This is called being a fanboy/girl, where the writers are perceived incapable of doing wrong and we should accept their work regardless. Have you ever claimed a movie was awful? By your logic, I should be well within my rights to tell you "Go make a better movie or shut up." Contrastive criticism is the foundation for a superior product. If people had not complained about aspects of Mass Effect, specifically technical stuff. We would not have Mass Effect 2.

To add to this, when criticizing a film or any medium, people often think that a good counter-argument is "Well, if you thought it was so bad, then you could obviously do better". This is a very weak argument unfortunately because they seem to imply that the critic is claiming to have some skill in movie-making, writing, whatever.

When I criticize Battlefield Earth, Twilight, whatever, I'm not making the claim that I can produce a better movie, or book than the director or author respectively. I could be a terrible director or author myself.However, I also did not  choose to present my work to the general public, leaving it open to their critiques.

Mass Effect 2 falls into this category. Bioware chose to make the game, to distribute it to the general public, so it falls to the public to laud or criticize it as they please.

[Praetor Knight]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

He has some truly worthwhile criticism and his concept of merging Miranda/Jack, Samara/Thane, Zaeed/Jacob and dropping Grunt and Kasumi altogether is definitely well thought. Coincidently, I am a similar opinion of much of what he stated.

Well, I'll agree to not knowing why that's a good idea and not caring either way.

But he really said that? About merging characters? Dropping Grunt? Kasumi?

I'm fine with with the characters as is. And Shep, well it's an RPG game right?

Well, I might of read a transcript of his stuff, but I'm likely not going to bother at all then.

I couldn't stand the voice anyway.

Meh.

[lazuli]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

He has some truly worthwhile criticism and his concept of merging Miranda/Jack, Samara/Thane, Zaeed/Jacob and dropping Grunt and Kasumi altogether is definitely well thought. Coincidently, I am a similar opinion of much of what he stated.

There are probably too many characters in ME2's squad, at least from a literary perspective.  I don't think we can hold games to the same standards that we hold literature though, and that's where a lot of his criticisms fall flat for me. 

[Teh Blasta]

Welp gave the videos a chance but it's a no go. If the guy called himself "smugboy" I could see the humor in it but his videos just come off insulting. He over analyzes unimportant details and tries to hide the fact that he is indeed a Mass Effect 1 fanboy who was upset at the much more streamlined second game. Useing the plot as an excuse to vent his frustration is blatent due to the slow and soft way he is reading his script. My guess is that the first take of the video was a hysterical rant that came off just as smug as his final version. The diffrence between this guy and the other unhappy RPG elitists is that he figured people who be fooled if he added some humor, upbeat piano songs and spoke in a clam and rational tone of voice.



The guy could have simply said "Yeah both games were good, but I prefer the first", but then entire series of videos could be cut to a one minute segment and that just isn't enough time to rant.

[Spartas Husky]

Like ME1 better. storyb was story driven. Whether you like to admit it or not, ME2 had little to no story aside from Horizon and after the omega 4 relay. Everything you do besides those two areas give nothing towards the story , is just building up your team. Now the obvious shortcomings of a neglible storyline in ME2 are greatly offset by the good work done in other areas... so credit is due in certain quantities. but then you see they took out the mako to be replaced by some half ass scanning mini game.............

[Vaenier]

samurai crusade wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

samurai crusade wrote...

Wow... those videos were lame. He's wrong on so many levels. and the background music. terrible ME has a great score. He should've just used that. haha

I do not like you. Bioware knows they can produce crap and people like you will buy it anyway, meaning they wont make good stuff for the rest of us. Get some standards damnit, demand competant writing and a decent story for your games. Or just go play Halo like I did if you want a good shooter.

You hate me because ME is my favorite game series?  I've never played HALO in my life... hate the concept, hate what I've seen.    I see nothing wrong with ME or the story... in fact I defend it.  If you have a problem... find a new game to play... you can play Halo.

That is odd. You like where Mass Effect is heading, a bad plot for a shooter game. But you you hate Halo. So I am confused.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

This is called being a fanboy/girl, where the writers are perceived incapable of doing wrong and we should accept their work regardless. Have you ever claimed a movie was awful? By your logic, I should be well within my rights to tell you "Go make a better movie or shut up." Contrastive criticism is the foundation for a superior product. If people had not complained about aspects of Mass Effect, specifically technical stuff. We would not have Mass Effect 2.

No longer confused.

Modifié par Vaenier, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:52 .

[samurai crusade]

I didn't like the video from the getgo when he said killing Shepard was dumb just to bring him back.... the first time I popped in ME2... after not reading anything about it (bought it on release anyway) I was like.... oh... that explains why I couldn't explore the galaxy after we defeated Sovereign in ME1... he died soon after. Obviously he wont die in the first 10 minutes again because we have free-roam post SM. I thought it was a nice way to tie stuff in.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

At this point, I think Halo's story has more credability.

[samurai crusade]

That is odd. You like where Mass Effect is heading, a bad plot for a shooter game. But you you hate Halo. So I am confused.

[/quote]

Once again.  I didn't think the plot was that bad.   We are still going after the reapers. We just learned that the reapers like to use pawns other than indoctrinated folk or mindless husks.  Not only that, they have some serious abilities to make subjects into some crazy enemies... scions and preators.

Squad-wise. I thought each was unique and could have done with another side-mission each.

Mass Effect 2 wanted the viewer to feel the "outlaw" experience of being in the Terminous systems... hence the greater shooter enphasis. Less of the Alliance, lets explore the galaxy, though I wish there was more of that... Bioware heard this and gave us Overlord and the Hammerhead.

It is still an RPG though.  Not an all-out shooter like Halo.  I've watched friends play it, I never enjoyed what I saw.  I like the fact that Shepard requires a team to win.           And I never saw any real interaction or character development in Halo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

He has some truly worthwhile criticism and his concept of merging Miranda/Jack, Samara/Thane, Zaeed/Jacob and dropping Grunt and Kasumi altogether is definitely well thought. Coincidently, I am a similar opinion of much of what he stated.

Well, I'll agree to not knowing why that's a good idea and not caring either way.

But he really said that? About merging characters? Dropping Grunt? Kasumi?

I'm fine with with the characters as is. And Shep, well it's an RPG game right?

Well, I might of read a transcript of his stuff, but I'm likely not going to bother at all then.

I couldn't stand the voice anyway.

Meh.

I never got the Thane/Samara out of him, but the general idea of the other two was combination and to reduce excess characters (in a way that still made sense).


Jack/Miranda was Jack's past with stockholm syndrome: a terrible Cerberus experiment to make the perfect little girl, only instead of sugar, spice, and everything nice, they used genetic tampering, torture, and liberal amounts of physical and psychological abuse. A Jack who didn't escape, but rather became like Aresh in believing it all had to be worth it, and was remade into the perfect little Cerberus loyalist as a result.


Jacob/Zaeed combined Zaeed's experience/cynicism with Jacob's past and moral idealism. He's a jaded idealist who doesn't buy into the Cerberus propoganda like Jack/Miranda, but has both personal and idealistic reasons for staying on.