150 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

MACharlie1 wrote...

More "professional' squad mates would get boring VERY quickly. How many different dialog conversations can one make up for 15 human Cerberus/Alliance operatives? From a developer perspective, this discussion is not very legitimate. Who wants to create a boring bland game? A modern game needs to be rich and colorful.

Are you saying professional poeple working in the police and military are boring? Carbon copies with no personality?

[Gladegunner]

For the sake of being 'sporting' (i.e., 1 against an entire forum), I will (temporarily) agree with the OP. There are a few benefits to having an all 'professional Cerberus team. Even though we could have put the old control chip in all of your team mates, having teammates of a more Human militarized style would mean a distinct understanding of the roles of each other member, therefore allowing team cohesion (i.e., not like tali vs legion momments). However, this would turn mass effect into Call of Duty. It also is going backwards in terms of mass effect being an RPG, and not an RTS or pure action FPS. However, in reality, this would be true (not in the playability of games ofc).

I have alot of things to say for against, but for now I'll leave it at that.

however, this

[MACharlie1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

More "professional' squad mates would get boring VERY quickly. How many different dialog conversations can one make up for 15 human Cerberus/Alliance operatives? From a developer perspective, this discussion is not very legitimate. Who wants to create a boring bland game? A modern game needs to be rich and colorful.

Are you saying professional poeple working in the police and military are boring? Carbon copies with no personality?

In a space drama filled with diverse aliens and weird codes and societies, it's quite silly not to use that to it's fullest potential. If I wanted to talk to an everyday military/police grunt, I'd go to the nearest station. Games/movies/TV are supposed to disconnect from reality - not to the point where your brain is noticing that it's not making sense - and create a connection with the audience. I don't mean to trash military/police forces but I'd rather hear the blue alien's mission to hunt down her vampire daughter then the realistic military grunts life story in a video game. I know with space-fantasy you can play around with the backstories so that not everyone is that poor kid on the streets who always wanted to be a cop. But there's only so much you can do with humans that hasn't been done before. We're human - we understand our own customs and minds and how we react to this and that. 

The point is, this is an interactive game. If this were the type of game where you go from point A to point B - following a straight storyline without any real freedom, my point would be moot as the weird aliens don't have to be part of the team but just that one you met somewhere and moved on.

But to actually answer your question - yes. The average police officer doesn't have a very exciting life like the blue skinned alien trying to kill her vampire daughter. One is real, one is not.  I play a game so I don't have to live 100% in reality.  

[Sjaddix]

The team is fine as is, the humans are not the best at everything nor should they be. Although, I do think that team members should dress more professionally while on mission, i don't care about the casual wear but everybody should be wearing at least light body armor while on missions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Are you saying professional poeple working in the police and military are boring? Carbon copies with no personality?

In a space drama filled with diverse aliens and weird codes and societies, it's quite silly not to use that to it's fullest potential. If I wanted to talk to an everyday military/police grunt, I'd go to the nearest station. Games/movies/TV are supposed to disconnect from reality - not to the point where your brain is noticing that it's not making sense - and create a connection with the audience. I don't mean to trash military/police forces but I'd rather hear the blue alien's mission to hunt down her vampire daughter then the realistic military grunts life story in a video game. I know with space-fantasy you can play around with the backstories so that not everyone is that poor kid on the streets who always wanted to be a cop. But there's only so much you can do with humans that hasn't been done before. We're human - we understand our own customs and minds and how we react to this and that.

And there's only so muhc you can do with aliens, because they're ultimatively all too human. At least those ine ME are.

But frankly, after a while, that diversity becomes boring. You KNOW you're gonan have weird and/or rare members in your party as a default.

Sten, Shale, Legion, HK-47, etc..

Why not a party of 4 turians and 2 humans?
Or 4 humans and 2 asari?
Why must there always be "1 of each"? Why must there always be aliens? For aliens sake?  (now this is going into the other extreeme)

You say games/TV are suppsoed o disconnect fro mreality. I say bull.

[Marta Rio]

From a purely logical standpoint, (i.e. what I would do if actually making a similar decision in "real life"), I agree with the OP. I sure as heck would not go to all the trouble of rescuing a bunch of specialists with possibly conflicting motives, some of whom are mentally unstable and who may try to kill me either before or after the mission is over.



But yeah, from a "let's play a fun video game" standpoint, a well-behaved, order-following, professional crew made up of all human members would have been like, I dunno, a team full of Jacobs and Kaidans? And I'm not sure anyone wants that, even people who love Jacob and Kaidan.

[Eduadinho]

Yeah i will agree from a logical standpoint to a a degree. Wouldn't have Jack on board or Grunt or Morinth or Samara if I made decisions she disagreed with. Everyone else I would be fine with. In fact I think another thing about having a professional group is that even they wouldn't be willing to do this mission. You need to have people with a bit of crazy willing to risk their lives just like that. I don't think a normal group of people would be so inclined.

[GodEmperor0956]

In the first mass effect I wish I could have gotten N7 commandos instead of a sergeant who was always stuck garrisoning a planet (which is considered a crappy tour of service), a go-hung, green corporal who has never been on a mission,and a lieutenant who doesn't know how to cope with casualties.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Marta Rio wrote...

But yeah, from a "let's play a fun video game" standpoint, a well-behaved, order-following, professional crew made up of all human members would have been like, I dunno, a team full of Jacobs and Kaidans? And I'm not sure anyone wants that, even people who love Jacob and Kaidan.

Not necessarily humans...but I disagree with the notion that they would be bland and boring.

Also, the notion that beiga an alien automagicly makes a cahracter more interesting - after all, any personality you give to them, you can also give a human.
The "alien apperance" and job are nothing more than shiny wrappers. It's whats inside that counts - that defines a welll-written character.

[Tachai03]

I'm not sure if you realize this, but it's already been made quite clear that the organizations with the training you're seeking have turned their back on Shepard. So he has no choice but to pick who he does. But TIM made damn sure that they weren't incompetent.

[Eddo36]

Why does everyone seem to think that everyone in the military are one-dimensional and the same? The brainwash?

Military is as diverse as you can get.

Modifié par Eddo36, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:17 .

[Gladegunner]

Eddo36 wrote...

Why does everyone seem to think that everyone in the military are one-dimensional and the same? The brainwash?

Military is as diverse as you can get.

On a scale of diversity, do you mean:

-Team Fortress (suprisingly good example)

-Halo ODST, Reach, OR 1,2,3, (unified regiment, glued together regiment, or humanities best +- aliens regiment)

-Modern Warfare 1 (realistic team and circumstances)

-Modern Warfare 2 (unrealistic team and circumstances)

-Pokemon (gotta cach them all? no? and they all work so well together)

I want to see where your coming from.

[Eddo36]

There are snipers, machine gunners, rifleman, grenadiers, sappers, etc. Very diverse.

Modifié par Eddo36, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:45 .

[Gladegunner]

So this is from a tactical perspective rather than an ethical, cultural or racial perspective.



But remember, there are several races out there with specialisations that may match or surpass human training. That would mean that the recruitment section of the game would be spent on Earth, colonies and human based conflict areas, correct?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Actually, military has sub-cultures of their own..really.



Different branches - heck, different units - are like a world onto itself.

It's fascinating and funny at the same time. Navy, AirForce and Army are the big 3, but withing them you have a lot of other division.



I talked to various people from various branches. They all have their own quirks and customs unique to them, and they have a rivalry that fun to observe.

[Eddo36]

Gladegunner wrote...

So this is from a tactical perspective rather than an ethical, cultural or racial perspective.

But remember, there are several races out there with specialisations that may match or surpass human training. That would mean that the recruitment section of the game would be spent on Earth, colonies and human based conflict areas, correct?

I've stated skill is not that important, unit cohesion is.

For example, if a sports team has a new player who is the most skillful but is a total a-hole, the team is better off without him.

[superfatman]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Every great adventure stars with giant rats.

loled

[Felfenix]

The Alliance doesn't have the best biotics, the Asari do. Also, Jack is the most powerful human biotic. The Alliance military doesn't have the best techs either. As demonstrated by Tali, other species have expertise that humanity simply doesn't. As far as pure soldiers go, humanity has nothing like a Krogan.

Everyone in the party is the best in their field. Garrus has experience working in small groups, has more than proved himself in his recruitment mission, and is a fully trained ex-member of the Turian military. Almost everyone on the squad has formal training and is ex-military of some kind. They're all essentially mercenaries.

Does the OP deny that even the most advanced and trained militaries IRL employ mercenaries? They do.

To TIM, Shepard is already a "loose cannon" being sent on a suicide mission, so why not send Shep in with a team of them who happen to be the best in the galaxy at their chosen fields of expertise? Why Shepard doesn't have the backup of the Alliance military? In ME2, at least, Shepard doesn't have the support, or even the trust, of the Alliance.

Modifié par Felfenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:00 .

[Flamewielder]

The way the ME2 story is told, there is no team until you start the suicide mission. You do have individual "professionals" on your team, like Miranda (Cerberus operative), Samara (Justicar) and Jacob (ex-Alliance military) but it's the team itself that isn't "professional".

For most of your squadmates, it's not that they are not "professionals"; the real problem is that they have never been asked to work together as part of a team. If you've watched or read "Band of Brothers", you'll see that none of them can be considered "professionals" until after they've been fighting together a few months...

As it is, they start off as a bunch of prima donnas who seem to think that the fact they're able to kick a ball into the goal at 75 yards will garantee their team will win the Superbowl... Earning their "loyalty" is more a combination:
1) solving a personal problem interfering with the squaddie's focus on the mission (Grunt, Garrus, Tali, Mordin, Thane)
2) getting the squaddie to open up somewhat and put some trust in their teammates (Miranda/Jack, Jacob, Legion/Tali)
3) getting lone wolves (like Samara, Kasumi, Zaeed) to work as part of a wolf pack, Shep being the Alpha male/female.

Should any of them make it back in ME3, their attitude and behavior should reflect a degree of cohesion they lacked in ME2. Some will obviously never be best pals (Miranda/Jack), but they aught to display some grudging respect in the other's ability and trust their teammates to get the job done.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:12 .

[Schneidend]

All of the specialists you recruit in ME2 are highly trained individuals.

Garrus is a turian and that comes pre-packaged with military training.
Samara is the asari equivalent of a goddamn super hero, a highly disciplined gun-toting monk/wizard.
Thane has been trained from childhood to be the perfect killing machine.
Grunt genetically IS the perfect killing machine and has been brainwashed to be an awesome soldier.
They all follow Shepard's orders.
I don't see the problem.

Modifié par Schneidend, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:40 .

[Ulzeraj]

Eddo36 wrote...

Why does everyone seem to think that everyone in the military are one-dimensional and the same? The brainwash?

Military is as diverse as you can get.

Eddo36 wrote...

There are snipers, machine gunners, rifleman, grenadiers, sappers, etc. Very diverse.

Yeah... very... deep and... interesting. [/sarcasm]

[ZachForrest]

Eddo36 wrote...

Why does everyone seem to think that everyone in the military are one-dimensional and the same? The brainwash?

Military is as diverse as you can get.

Eddo36 wrote...

There are snipers, machine gunners, rifleman, grenadiers, sappers, etc. Very diverse.

You must be about 9 years old. Surely.

Modifié par ZachForrest, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:40 .

[Archontor]

Eddo36 wrote...

There are snipers, machine gunners, rifleman, grenadiers, sappers, etc. Very diverse.

and how many of them have four eyes, or bird legs, come to think of it how many of them have a hairstyle that isn't 'shaved'

[cameronnadal]

The idea of a world as vast as the mass effect world is gives the higher opportunity for truly exceptional people to rise.



Its also a suicide mission, he needs people who can deal with that as well.



There are military people under his command and then there are people like Jack who are engineered to be the best, most powerful biotic ever.



I meen, you have a Justicar, the special forces selarian doctor, the vr trained ultimate krogan warrior, a highly trained and skilled assassin, a militiraized Geth unit, two officers in cerberus, one of which was former human special forces..



Skill can't make up for everything. Its also clearly stated that the citadel and alliance wont be giving you armys and fleets to command. Your on this on your own.

[Gladegunner]

I have an idea. How about we just hire out all the merc groups, all the mech making joints, and replace shepards ending team. What is the difference?



Anyway, the scariest most over-powered team would 20 snipers, all equiped with insane ranged sniper rifles with penetration rounds, all in a stealth bomber, all covered in carbon paint, all sniping out of the belly hatch, and there is nothing you can do short of trying to dodge bullets.