28 réponses à ce sujet

[bcooper56]

If Harrowmont
becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he will deal with Bhelen's
rebellion for most of his reign. He will be unable to pass any
significant legislation other than writs that further isolate Orzammar
from the surface. He eventually dies, either from exhaustion with the
court of deshyrs or poisoned. The resulting power vacuum creates a
civil war among Orzammar's nobility.


If Harrowmont
is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, the new golems will be
used to quickly crush Bhelen's rebellion. New laws will soon be passed
further restricting the lower castes. Siding with Harrowmont and recovering the Anvil of the Void will also
lead to a decline after initial success. Harrowmont will discourage
trade with the surface, leading to further isolation. In addition, after
Harrowmont refuses Branka more volunteers for the Anvil, she will begin
raiding the surface world for the needed ingredients. Eventually the
surface world will retaliate, resulting in a short war with Ferelden.
Orzammar's gates are besieged, and are sealed off, isolating Orzammar
more than ever.

Best ending for orzammar seems to be...

Siding with Bhelen
and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of
prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens
Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater
rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This
policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the
noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts,
he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.

Modifié par bcooper56, 14 janvier 2011 - 09:27 .

[ejoslin]

Yeh, there is no good ending if you put Harrowmont as king. He even turns away Ferelden troops if you ask for the dwarven boon.



Harrowmont = fail.

[bcooper56]

ejoslin wrote...

Yeh, there is no good ending if you put Harrowmont as king. He even turns away Ferelden troops if you ask for the dwarven boon.

Harrowmont = fail.

Yes he seemed like the good guy but seems he fails. With save im working on now for da2 i plan to do following.

Siding with Bhelen
and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of
prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens
Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater
rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This
policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the
noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts,
he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.

[Tranceptor]

Nope he's just not a very good king.He wanted things to stay the same.



Bhelen was a complete ***** and I really wanted to kill him, but he knew how to rule and his ideas for Orzamar were good for a place and peopel that had become very stagnant.



I'm still waiting for him to put my face on one of those big statues.....

[IanPolaris]

You get the good ending if you save the Anvil and put Bhelen on the throne. Bhelen stops using the anvil and beseiges Carridin's fortress when Branks refuses to promise that she will only make Golems for the crown (Bhelen)...and honestly that's a very reasonable stipulation on Bhelen's part.



The net result winds up being the same including the dissolving of the assembly and more rights for casteless.



-Polaris

[bcooper56]

IanPolaris wrote...

You get the good ending if you save the Anvil and put Bhelen on the throne. Bhelen stops using the anvil and beseiges Carridin's fortress when Branks refuses to promise that she will only make Golems for the crown (Bhelen)...and honestly that's a very reasonable stipulation on Bhelen's part.

The net result winds up being the same including the dissolving of the assembly and more rights for casteless.

-Polaris

Actually i think if you destory anvil and put bhelen as king it has best ending.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

You get the good ending if you save the Anvil and put Bhelen on the throne. Bhelen stops using the anvil and beseiges Carridin's fortress when Branks refuses to promise that she will only make Golems for the crown (Bhelen)...and honestly that's a very reasonable stipulation on Bhelen's part.

Except Bhelen can't breach the fortress once she refuses to make golems solely for him and Branka is mentally unbalanced. Maybe if someone relatively sane was handling the Anvil, I could see the reason to spare it because the darkspawn need to be stopped at all costs, but Branka can't be reasoned with. I don't see any reason to save the Anvil as long as Branka's the only person who can be left with it.

[bcooper56]

LobselVith8 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You get the good ending if you save the Anvil and put Bhelen on the throne. Bhelen stops using the anvil and beseiges Carridin's fortress when Branks refuses to promise that she will only make Golems for the crown (Bhelen)...and honestly that's a very reasonable stipulation on Bhelen's part.

Except Bhelen can't breach the fortress once she refuses to make golems solely for him and Branka is mentally unbalanced. Maybe if someone relatively sane was handling the Anvil, I could see the reason to spare it because the darkspawn need to be stopped at all costs, but Branka can't be reasoned with. I don't see any reason to save the Anvil as long as Branka's the only person who can be left with it.

This clearly best is when you destory it and put bhelen as king.

[Last Darkness]

Depends on your views but Harrowmont is the worst King for Orzamaar.



Bhelen+Anvil destroyed is the "Good" solution. Most positive benefit for everyone.

Bhelen+Anvil Kept in tact is the best solution for the Wardens and stoping the Blight(My personal preferance)



Alot of the Bhelen Harrowmont Hate comes from people who have only played the Dwarf Noble Origen. If you play the Dwarf Commoner Origen and go through the Orzamaar quests it is Bhelen who is painted as the hero and harrowmont as the bad guy.



Also its heavily implied Harrowmont poisoned the King Aeducan.

[Sarah1281]

Also its heavily implied Harrowmont poisoned the King Aeducan.

By who? What would Harrowmont have gotten out of killing off Endrin right when he was starting to reject Bhelen? Had he lived long enough, he might have formerly rejected him as his heir and made Harrowmont's life easier.



Also that first Harrowmont ending is slightly inaccurate.

In Orzammar, King Harrowmont found himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that left him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords objected to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success. In time, Harrowmont's health began to fail. Some claimed it was poison, while others said it was a flagging spirit. Either way, after a protracted illness, the king finally passed away. The wrangling in the Assembly for a successor began almost immediately.

Now, some might say that this means a civil war but for all we know, they just start arguing about it again. It doesn't say for sure either way. A 'good' ending for Harrowmont could be that the winner of this wrangling is both competent and a reformer but, again, no way to know.

[Last Darkness]

Sarah1281

The information the player is given is that the only one to be close to Endrin and be there during his death was Harrowmont. Dwarvern politics being what they are it certainly would be easy for him to have killed the king and blame it on Bhelen. Of course Bhelen could have done it too somehow. Hence why im saying its implied, Harrowmont had as much MMO as Bhelen (Motive, Method, Oppertunity)

[Sarah1281]

On the one hand, theere is a powerful poison that the dwarven doctor on hand refers to as a 'king killer' and posits that she got by mistake which could be leftover from whoever killed Endrin. On the other, it was easy to identify her as being poisoned so she had to have taken a lot more or less than Endrin since when he got sick I'm sure someone sent for a doctor.



Harrowmont himself doesn't believe Bhelen could have killed Endrin since he wasn't allowed near Endrin and everyone knows it. Maybe if it was a very slow-acting poison or a servant was in Bhelen's pocket. If Endrin was poisoned when only Harrowmont had access to him, Harrowmont couldn't be sure to avoid blame so killing him when he was the only one who could have would have been completely stupid of him. It might be implied that Harrowmont killed him but only one person mentions the possibility (and just in response to you saying 'some people say Bhelen killed his father') so that's hardly a strong implication. If anything, it is strongly implied by practically everyone you ask that Bhelen did it although Harrowmont of all people denies it is possible.

[Last Darkness]

Sarah1281 wrote...

On the one hand, theere is a powerful poison that the dwarven doctor on hand refers to as a 'king killer' and posits that she got by mistake which could be leftover from whoever killed Endrin. On the other, it was easy to identify her as being poisoned so she had to have taken a lot more or less than Endrin since when he got sick I'm sure someone sent for a doctor.

Harrowmont himself doesn't believe Bhelen could have killed Endrin since he wasn't allowed near Endrin and everyone knows it. Maybe if it was a very slow-acting poison or a servant was in Bhelen's pocket. If Endrin was poisoned when only Harrowmont had access to him, Harrowmont couldn't be sure to avoid blame so killing him when he was the only one who could have would have been completely stupid of him. It might be implied that Harrowmont killed him but only one person mentions the possibility (and just in response to you saying 'some people say Bhelen killed his father') so that's hardly a strong implication. If anything, it is strongly implied by practically everyone you ask that Bhelen did it although Harrowmont of all people denies it is possible.

Hence the problem, we have no confirmation on who did it. It could have been either of them or a servant of their acting for them. No one knows. So im going with Occams razor that the person who had the easiest time and chance to do it is Harrowmont. So im leaning towards thinking he did it. But we will never know unless Gaider tells us.

[Eski.Moe]

With hindsight it becomes clear how ineffectual and poor a leader Harrowmont is however in game, he seems like a solid and reliable guy. He's courteous and he seems like a good choice for King coupled with Bhelen's nature and Harrowmont's wishes. I chose him on my first playthrough and continue to do so on occasion.

[Last Darkness]

Eski.Moe wrote...

With hindsight it becomes clear how ineffectual and poor a leader Harrowmont is however in game, he seems like a solid and reliable guy. He's courteous and he seems like a good choice for King coupled with Bhelen's nature and Harrowmont's wishes. I chose him on my first playthrough and continue to do so on occasion.

But remember dwarvern politics, Harrowmont didnt get into his position as a straight edge kind of guy. If anything because of his more traditional beliefs hes probably done worse things then Bhelen. Both guys are moraly evil, Bhelen is more so then Harrowmont but is a better leader because of it.

[IanPolaris]

Eski.Moe wrote...

With hindsight it becomes clear how ineffectual and poor a leader Harrowmont is however in game, he seems like a solid and reliable guy. He's courteous and he seems like a good choice for King coupled with Bhelen's nature and Harrowmont's wishes. I chose him on my first playthrough and continue to do so on occasion.

Harrowmount only seems solid and reliable at a cursory glance, and I will agree that the game encourages you to make exactly this mistake.  Take Zev with you one time and talk with Dulin Ferendor (Harrowmount's second), and Zev will peal away this facade for the fakery that it is.  For that matter, as a DN, you know how ineffectual Harrowmount is with the Assembly (otherwise where was your trial that tradition and custom demanded?).  We also get other clear indications including most importantly the fact that Bhelen promises you troops while Harrowmount only promises to ask for troops (a key difference).

No, it's pretty clear who is the weak leader if you do a little digging beneath the surface.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eski.Moe wrote...

With hindsight it becomes clear how ineffectual and poor a leader Harrowmont is however in game, he seems like a solid and reliable guy. He's courteous and he seems like a good choice for King coupled with Bhelen's nature and Harrowmont's wishes. I chose him on my first playthrough and continue to do so on occasion.

Well you have his men outright abandonning him in the streets, where he could have easily been killed (what the guards should have done is cover Harrowmont's escape). You have his champions (who are supposed to be the elites) deserting him (and one for a very stupid reason), and he thinks it's a good idea to share this with the Warden who came here for military support (a sign that he is either too desperate, or too stupid). And in general, it seems like Harrowmont is on the defensive (and badly), while Bhelen is being  aggressive. That to me is a show of weakness vs that of strength.

It is true that his codex makes him sound more solid than Bhelen. Harrowmont has experience, while Bhelen has none. However that same codex also says that Harrowmont's career is based on compromise with the Assembly. Not a good sign. And while Bhelen lacks any formal experience, it didn't stop Helmi from saying that he is "brilliant and subtle as sin". The DN Origin further shows the political genius of Bhelen.

So it isn't impossible or even difficult to see that Harrowmont is not that solid of a leader. Now I wil say, I did expect him to be a conservative. I did not expect him to be regressive and basically that much of a fail. It didn't surprise me, but I do not recall any indications that he thinks Orzammar should be even more backwards, but I might be wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:06 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I did not expect him to be regressive and basically that much of a fail. It didn't surprise me, but I do not recall any indications that he thinks Orzammar should be even more backwards, but I might be wrong. 

Well, the golemless epilogue for Harrowmont somewhat implies that he's incapable of pushing forth any of his agenda and succeeds only in passing legislation that virtually all clan lords can agree on (i.e. things that serve their own short term self interest).  So maybe he isn't entirely to blame for the outcome of his reign.  His weakness may have allowed it, but it appears that the rest of the noble caste marched gleefully to their doom under his lax supervision.

Modifié par jvee, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I did not expect him to be regressive and basically that much of a fail. It didn't surprise me, but I do not recall any indications that he thinks Orzammar should be even more backwards, but I might be wrong. 

Well, the golemless epilogue for Harrowmont somewhat implies that he's incapable of pushing forth any of his agenda and succeeds only in passing legislation that virtually all clan lords can agree on (i.e. things that serve their own short term self interest).  So maybe he isn't entirely to blame for the outcome of his reign.  His weakness may have allowed it, but it appears that the rest of the noble caste marched gleefully to their doom under his lax supervision.

With golems, he is in a position of strength and I do believe that this is what he wants.
But of course the Assembly is as much to blame on this, as we know he only likes to take decisions after the  Deshyrs agree on it.  I see this as clear indication that the Assembly has to be purged for its idiocy. It is part of the problem. If not the problem. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:29 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah I laughed when Bhelen got rid of the assembly.



Finally Orzamar can move ahead.

[Sarah1281]

You know what's ridiculous about Harrowmont's reign? With golems he can do what he wants and he gives the nobles more power. The nobles are the only ones who vote on new laws. Why the hell can't Harrowmont give nobles more power without golems? Are the families that supported Bhelen really THAT determined to get nothing done?

[Giggles_Manically]

Harrowmont just loves tradition so much!



What does it matter that Orzamar will be dead now in only a few decades with a mad woman pumping out Golems.

[Sarah1281]

But it's like if a legislative body voted down an increase in their pay because they're determined not to get anything done. It's being stupid and acting against their own self-interests (and is reminding me WAY too much of certain recent events...)

[Giggles_Manically]

Its politicians Sarah.



Outside of a few of them I doubt any of them have gone into the deep roads and know the full story, or even really care that much.



A vote for Harrowmont is a vote for repression and failed government!

[mousestalker]

It's very reminiscent of the Polish parliament. They knew they system was killing Poland. But they couldn't bear to give up any of their own personal power to save their country.



Actually, that sounds like almost every legislator that's ever lived.