98 réponses à ce sujet

[Last Vizard]

marshalleck wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
It's better for the Quarians to float around until they can get some protection from the council.

Enter humanity on the galactic stage. 

If the Systems Alliance were smart, we'd find a habitable world somewhere in the skyllian verge and offer it to the quarians. The quarians are some of the best starship engineers and indisputably the best AI researchers in the galaxy, and that could potentially be an ace in the sleeve for humanity diplomatically and technologically when it comes to leveraging humanity's interests vs. the council's. 

I like how you think.

I added a bit more. And now that I think about it, if the quarians did settle a planet in the verge, that would in the long term strengthen humanity's presence vs. batarian slavers and raiders. In fact it would pretty much push them out entirely--there's no way they could handle both SA and quarian military patrols in the verge. So there's a territorial gain as well. 

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL yeah thats what i thougt when you said it.

[zmanwithaplan]

marshalleck wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
It's better for the Quarians to float around until they can get some protection from the council.

Enter humanity on the galactic stage. 

If the Systems Alliance were smart, we'd find a habitable world somewhere in the skyllian verge and offer it to the quarians. The quarians are some of the best starship engineers and indisputably the best AI researchers in the galaxy, and that could potentially be an ace in the sleeve for humanity diplomatically and technologically when it comes to leveraging humanity's interests vs. the council's. 

I like how you think.

I added a bit more. And now that I think about it, if the quarians did settle a planet in the verge, that would in the long term strengthen humanity vs. batarian slavers and raiders. In fact it would pretty much push them out entirely--there's no way they could handle both SA and quarian military patrols in the verge. So there's a territorial gain as well. 

I smell SEQUEL TRILOGY!!!
But seriously that would be a good idea with some setbacks:
The quarians would accept this offer, I highly doubt they'd be willing to accept an alternate homeworld AND be in debt to humanity. They've grown highly independent since the war against the Geth.

The Council, as well as other species, would also take this move an afront. Humanity would literally be going behind their backs assuming the authority of planet distributors in a sense. Even if planets on the verge aren't strictly in Council space, what's to stop the Council from getting butt-hurt anyway?

[Last Vizard]

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL Double post.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:06 .

[marshalleck]

Let the council be butt-hurt over it. What are they going to do about it, when humanity has entire fleets of not only Normandy SR-2s, but cruisers and dreadnoughts all outfitted with EDIs running cyberwarfare attack and defense suites?

There is the issue of the quarians wanting sovereignty in their own affairs, and I think it would be best to not impede that impulse. Tyrants always fall, so I would present the move as a diplomatic and strategic partnership. It has worked for the turians and volus; the turians protect and defend the greater territory, the volus in exchange perform their own role with their economic expertise in turian affairs. They maintain control of their homeworld and have a number of colonies as well. As sajuro said, the quarians would become a client race of the Systems Alliance--not a servant or slave. A "partner." 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:13 .

[Sashimi_taco]

I like to think its like Battlestar Galactica and if they stopped they would have been killed. Now that they are no longer chased, it is too late and they are already weak.

[NYG1991]

Yea quarians tried colonizing a world and the council gave rights to the elcor. Plus in Ascencion they start sending scout ships to look for new worlds.

[adam_grif]

The council getting ****ty that the Quarians settled a crappy planet without their permission reminds me of the Pope drawing a line across the globe and saying "everything on this side belongs to Portugal, everything on this side belongs to Spain".



So happy I let them die.

[Omnicrat]

Kristofer1 wrote...

I'm curious. Are they lazy? Stupid? Did I miss something? Ive never been able to figure out why they didn't colonize another world outside of Geth Space. There are plenty of world where they could have gone. The Humans have colonized worlds since the Geth incident, so haven't the other council races. So why not Quarians? Its not like they would have had trouble, they've been surviving in space.

I'm just flabbergasted that they never attempted to colonize another world.  I dont hate the quarians or anything of the sort. I understand that they would like their homeworld and former colonies back. But seriously, they should have realized after a couple of years that wasnt likely to happen.

On another topic, if their ships are so clean, why when Shepard goes on are they in their suits? Didn't it say in one of the books that the quarians live outside of the enviro suits when on their ships?

Well, I'm not sure if it was in the first game, but one of the plant descriptions talked about how the Quarians started colonizing a new world after their exodus without permission from the council, so they got booted off of the planet. 

This lead me to believe that (after this insident) the quarians got stonewalled trying to secure a new homeworld through legal channals to the point that they needed the enviro suits, making a new homeworld undesireable.

As to your second point, alot of the biology/history/planetary ecology ME puts out there seems to be counter-intuitive or down-right contradictory.  Still great, but yeah.

[Omnicrat]

marshalleck wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
It's better for the Quarians to float around until they can get some protection from the council.

Enter humanity on the galactic stage. 

If the Systems Alliance were smart, we'd find a habitable world somewhere in the skyllian verge and offer it to the quarians. The quarians are some of the best starship engineers and indisputably the best AI researchers in the galaxy, and that could potentially be an ace in the sleeve for humanity diplomatically and technologically when it comes to leveraging humanity's interests vs. the council's.

Not to mention the huge political victory it could be over the Council, showing how compassionate and selfless humanity is to offer one of its own worlds to the refugees of a nearly genocidal war. Not that this is the true aim of course--just the public face of it. Embarass the Council and gain unfettered access to some of the best experts in the galaxy for cutting edge AI research in one move. 

I think someone just hit on a possible ME3 Quarian plot-line... 

[Omnicrat]

In Exile wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Their immune system is exceptionally low, thus why they wear the suits. Infact if you Romance Tali in ME2 then she needs to take several medications to enhance her immune system so she doesn't die when you remove her mask and even then she gets ill afterwards.

Having them colonize another planet with a completely different environment then in their homeplanet would not only be incredibly dangerous but also take possibly centuries until they can live there and not run the risk of dying if their suits would get torn by accident.

Besides if humanity was kicked out of Earth, naturally we would want to return to it.

This bit of kick-in-the-nuts to biology makes my brain bleed. Evolution does not work this way! Yes, mutations accumulate if there is no selective pressure, but that isn't something that would knock out a species entire immune system. Even if you have mutations that knock out the immune system in individuals come up, there aren't enough generations to actually have something like that diffuse in the population.

That the quarians have the problems they do is basically magic.

Do we really know Quarian life spans?  Couldn't they be 60 years on a good day?  So, if they do have a short life-span, figuring a generation once every 20 years or so... they have been in space for around 15 generations.  Thats enough to have afew hundred deffective immune systems in the first generation trickle down to the rest by now.

Maybe it was common for Quarian babies to die from alergic reactions, but the population quotas and sterile environments made most of those children survive, becoming the dominant members of the population.

Maybe there was a genetic defect caused by being nearly continually affected by a mass effect field (the gravity) from the moment one is born.

Maybe they "evolutionary" change was minimal and the Quarians current state is due to none of their young getting the chance to test their immune systems against any environment. 

Maybe the original explination made sense, but through re-writes in the story of ME1, they had to change the dates or reason for the suits.

Maybe someone at bioware just liked the idea of suit people with bad immune systems so they put it in a game and tried to haphazardly explain it later.

The point is; You can think of many explanations, so just pick which makes you happies and call it the truth!

[Merchant2006]

I do think they are lazy. Most of them are obsessed with fighting the geth but as Tali said, they'd have to 'cannibalise' their entire fleet when they settle on a new world, not to mention the whole adaptation and immunisation stuff they'd have to go through when they do settle.

You'd have thought they'd have done that 200 years ago, but noooooo.

[Someone With Mass]

Maybe they simply don't have the resources to colonize planets for the whole fleet.



Also, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to settle down on a planet in the Terminus system. With all those constant pirate attacks and whatnot.

[WarMech13]

Omnicrat wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
It's better for the Quarians to float around until they can get some protection from the council.

Enter humanity on the galactic stage. 

If the Systems Alliance were smart, we'd find a habitable world somewhere in the skyllian verge and offer it to the quarians. The quarians are some of the best starship engineers and indisputably the best AI researchers in the galaxy, and that could potentially be an ace in the sleeve for humanity diplomatically and technologically when it comes to leveraging humanity's interests vs. the council's.

Not to mention the huge political victory it could be over the Council, showing how compassionate and selfless humanity is to offer one of its own worlds to the refugees of a nearly genocidal war. Not that this is the true aim of course--just the public face of it. Embarass the Council and gain unfettered access to some of the best experts in the galaxy for cutting edge AI research in one move. 

I think someone just hit on a possible ME3 Quarian plot-line... 

Agreed. And if the Council gets all b*tchy about it then Humanity can remind them and the other races what a "pain in the arse" the quarians are when the Fleet enters one of their systems.

Modifié par WarMech13, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:56 .

[Sandbox47]

Oh well done, Dean. A perfect explanation. (page 1)

[Omnicrat]

WarMech13 wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sajuro wrote...
It's better for the Quarians to float around until they can get some protection from the council.

Enter humanity on the galactic stage. 

If the Systems Alliance were smart, we'd find a habitable world somewhere in the skyllian verge and offer it to the quarians. The quarians are some of the best starship engineers and indisputably the best AI researchers in the galaxy, and that could potentially be an ace in the sleeve for humanity diplomatically and technologically when it comes to leveraging humanity's interests vs. the council's.

Not to mention the huge political victory it could be over the Council, showing how compassionate and selfless humanity is to offer one of its own worlds to the refugees of a nearly genocidal war. Not that this is the true aim of course--just the public face of it. Embarass the Council and gain unfettered access to some of the best experts in the galaxy for cutting edge AI research in one move. 

I think someone just hit on a possible ME3 Quarian plot-line... 

Agreed. And if the Council gets all b*tchy about it then Humanity can remind them and the other races what a "pain in the arse" the quarians are when the Fleet enters one of their systems.

And don't stop there!  If you played your cards right, you might get human "protection" to the Krogan as well!  Maybe we keep them away from a ganophager cure secretivly, but help them to their face and use them as shock troops!  Human Empire built on the backs of aliens! 

[Alexine]

I don't think that quarians are lazy. Like what other posters have said, they are very prideful and well knitted, like extended relatives. Despite being raised on the flotilla for a long time, quarians are deeply rooted into their history of their former glory and its reasonable that they want to reclaim this.

I do think that quarians do have the capability to colonise somewhere OUTSIDE Council Space. They have one of the best fleets that are often maintained very easily (since quarians repair anything that can be repaired and improved upon) and they are very intelligent to plan defense in case pirates/enemies/geth try to attack them (I mean, quarians have the best AI tech experts and engineers and they did create the geth).

As for being able to adapt to a new world, I think they are fearful of doing something like this. All the quarians talk about freedom and desire to be out of their suits, yet from my impressions is that they want to take the "easy" route out of this and to reclaim the homeworld. But what baffles me is that if they managed to get back to the homeworld, they would have to go through the same process of re-adapting the world. Not to mention that worlds can change quickly in a few hundred years (such as haelstrom), so it might take more few hundred years to readapt. Colonisation is logically the easier route (no need to waste armies trying to fight an impossible enemy such as the geth), yet as an intelligent species, why doesn't the majority see this?

I think V-rex had a very good point that the quarians are indecisive and like to debate too much (shown in Tali's loyalty mission). Quarians and particularly the Admirals reminded me of the Roman Assembly in some ways. They were indecisive and eager to fight many wars, but they were crumbling to the point that only a leader (Augustus) who has his own army and established allies managed to reclaim the Roman Empire's glory. But in the quarians case, they have NO allies and NO leader who can hold diplomacy to create Alliances with other races. I think that the only reason the quarians are important in the story  is their possible knowledge of dark energy (as hinted in Tali's recruitment and in Retribution) which is possible that it could be ground shaking in ME3. Else I honestly don't see why they are important race as a whole in the story with the war against the Reapers.

Modifié par Alexine, 15 janvier 2011 - 11:15 .

[JuicElawl]

well, i guess the quarians are kinda lazy in that they designed a bunch of robots centuries ago to do all their manual labor for them.

[Siegdrifa]

Kristofer1 wrote...

They could have went outside of "council space" after the loss of their worlds. colonized new worlds, and low and behold create a new area of council space. They would not have needed to adapt to no suits if the colonized immediately instead of begging around the galaxy.

May be you missed the point and explanation of Tali during her mission.

It seems that quarian CAN'T live anywhere else in the galaxy outside their home world without expecting very long bioenginering treatment.
Like she said, it's the difference between 60 years and 600 of adaptation.
They are in exile since 300 years, meaning that even if they tryed to colonisse a new world (not any world would do unfortunatly), they would be a long way from living without their suit.

Quarian always add VERY WEAK immune system, it's like taking a fish from the water and asking him to breath on open air because there is no water anywhere else, it can't be done like that.

May be they were betting that to prepare a war since many decade would still be a lot shorter than adapting to a new world (many century).


Their is specific trait among people you can't choose, black people are immune to sun burn because of the pigmentation of their skin, very white people are very sensitive to sun burn, after weeks / months / years (depend of each individual), white people get tanned skin, it help to prevent from sunburn but it won't be as effective as native black people of Africa for exemple.
Does it mean as a white people we are lazy to get immune to sun burn ? i think not, we just have no controle over it.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 15 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[Element_Zero]

This might be more explained in one of the books on the ME universe?

But anyway I always wondered why the didn't take the time to expose themselves to various things slowly over the generations to bolster their immune system. Maybe it was a foregone thought?

Surely some of them are studying their biology? Their going to have to if the try to return to there home word anyway wouldn't they? I'm sure what ever made prior generations ill has mutated somewhat either into stronger strains or weaker ones. Maybe some of what ever made them sick may have died off, but I'm sure not all of it has.

Modifié par Element_Zero, 15 janvier 2011 - 12:09 .

[disjunctionreaper]

JuicElawl wrote...

well, i guess the quarians are kinda lazy in that they designed a bunch of robots centuries ago to do all their manual labor for them.

<_And besides if you play a game, you are essentially playing against an AI, which can think, act and respond just inside a box instead of a body.

This thread isn't worth my time; I'm outta here...

Modifié par disjunctionreaper, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:40 .

[RVallant]

V-rex wrote...

They want to go to war with the Geth because the Geth almost wiped out their entire race and drove them from their homeworld. If you ask I would have thought the fact that the Geth almost wiped out their entire race and drove them from their homeworld is a pretty good reason NOT to go to war with them.

"human" nature to having a serious feeling of resentment towards the victors of a war if you're on the losing side. It's really another portrayal of organics vs synthetics, emotion vs logic.

In Exile wrote...

The Almighty Ali wrote...

Their
immune system is exceptionally low, thus why they wear the suits.
Infact if you Romance Tali in ME2 then she needs to take several
medications to enhance her immune system so she doesn't die when you
remove her mask and even then she gets ill afterwards.

Having
them colonize another planet with a completely different environment
then in their homeplanet would not only be incredibly dangerous but also
take possibly centuries until they can live there and not run the risk
of dying if their suits would get torn by accident.

Besides if humanity was kicked out of Earth, naturally we would want to return to it.

This
bit of kick-in-the-nuts to biology makes my brain bleed. Evolution does
not work this way! Yes, mutations accumulate if there is no selective
pressure, but that isn't something that would knock out a species entire
immune system. Even if you have mutations that knock out the
immune system in individuals come up, there aren't enough generations to
actually have something like that diffuse in the population.

That the quarians have the problems they do is basically magic.

Eh? They had low immune systems before they left the planet. That's part of the reason they're so crap with immunity, once they left said planet for a sterile environment anyway the immune system backs off. Because it was seriously low in the first place that is why they have trouble. I doubt it would have affected a normal immune system really, but it is a bit daft to sterlise the entire place ¬_¬

[Weiser_Cain]

To me the mistake was to make them super smart and resourceful, but also refugees, it never made sense that they wouldn't grab a small, dead, moon in a particularly uneventful part of space nobody wanted and make that their secret sterile home away from home. I mean even though they don't have AI, they can still make advanced but dumb robots to do heavy labor nonstop and build a world within a generation.



Or fine, if they want to stay on the ships mine those planets for materials to build new, more powerful ships.

[In Exile]

Omnicrat wrote...

Do we really know Quarian life spans?  Couldn't they be 60 years on a good day?  So, if they do have a short life-span, figuring a generation once every 20 years or so... they have been in space for around 15 generations.  Thats enough to have afew hundred deffective immune systems in the first generation trickle down to the rest by now.

You can't just knock out the immune system like that. ME isn't even clear on what immune problem they have. ME2 acts like they have severe allergies, but they speak about nonsence like "boosting your immune system with antibiotics" which only works against specific bacterial infections. It's all 100% nonsence.

Our species has lots of pretty bad auto-immune problems. But we can control them with medication. Auto-immune problems are nothing like what ME portrays them as. It isn't a weak immune system, but rather a retard immune system that attacks the body's own cellular tissue and needs to be artificially suppressed to allow for functioning. Even then, people are not typically more suscepntible to infection (well, it varies based on the medication dosage) but oftentimes what happens is that the actual infection itself is many times worse.

Maybe it was common for Quarian babies to die from alergic reactions, but the population quotas and sterile environments made most of those children survive, becoming the dominant members of the population.

If there was some hyper allergic trait, natural selection would either clear it out or (more reasonably) quarians would have put their children in suits earlier. Their enviro-suit is not magic technology they invented in outer-space. Think about it this way: if all these quarians keep dying from the trait, the trait would breed out. The only exception is if you were a carrier. But at that point, you could just screen genetically for the disorder.

But having no quarians in suits at the time of their exodus => all quarians in suits today is, well, just magic.

Maybe there was a genetic defect caused by being nearly continually affected by a mass effect field (the gravity) from the moment one is born.

Well, okay, but then adaptation is 100% impossible. There would be no non-affected quarian stock in existence. All quarians would carry a mutation that would make their immune systems worthless. Even if they go back to their homeworld, they'd never be able to remove their suits.

Maybe they "evolutionary" change was minimal and the Quarians current state is due to none of their young getting the chance to test their immune systems against any environment.

That would be simple to cure - raise your young in contaminated environments. But that's not actually what ME2 says. They specifically talk about children ''relying'' on their mother's immune system when they are in the bubble.

Maybe the original explination made sense, but through re-writes in the story of ME1, they had to change the dates or reason for the suits.

No, the original explanation was still stupid.

Maybe someone at bioware just liked the idea of suit people with bad immune systems so they put it in a game and tried to haphazardly explain it later.

Probably. I'm just saying trying to reason out what the quarians did is incoherent thanks to all the Bad Science ™.

[In Exile]

RVallant wrote...
Eh? They had low immune systems before they left the planet. That's part of the reason they're so crap with immunity, once they left said planet for a sterile environment anyway the immune system backs off. Because it was seriously low in the first place that is why they have trouble. I doubt it would have affected a normal immune system really, but it is a bit daft to sterlise the entire place ¬_¬

An immune system doesn't work that way. To begin with, a hyper supressed immune system wouldn't give you allergic reactions because there isn't anything to be allergic with (i.e. your own immune cells). Allergies (and other auto-immune conditions that are effectively allergic in terms of mechanism) are actually treated by weakening the immune system.

If their immune system was 0, basically they would never have allergic reactions. What they could die of are pathogenic infections, but you would need viruses or bacteria that could actually infect quarian tissue. 

People whose immune systems crash die because simple infections they would normally fight off (e.g. the cold), they can't fight off. The pathogen infects more and more cells, killing them, and eventually the person dies due to massive cell death. If there aren't any pathogens that could infect you, your immune system is 100% useless.

[zmanwithaplan]

Well while we've moved on to their immune systems, can't this be solved in one of two ways?:

1. Selective breeding of the Quarians who still posses the ability to create certain types of antibodies, this would be unlikely if they ALL somehow lost their entire ability to create antibodies.

2. Genetic modifications are already being used on humans, so why not Quarians? Of course having only 17 million Quarians, none of whom are geneticists (most likely) this option would STILL take decades, if not, centuries.



Basically: The Quarians need the genetic equivalent to a cure for HIV. Not an easy task for such a small species.