299 réponses à ce sujet

[Sjofn]

The marketing is completely stupid for DA2, yes. I'm sure it's because it's not FOR me, they're not trying to attract ME into playing their game. I find this a little sad, as they did similar things with the Mass Effects and the first Dragon Age. If my husband hadn't picked them up and insisted to me I would like them, I never would've tried them. And my goodness! They are possibly the most empowering games I've ever played as a lady. And I would've skipped them entirely because of the ridiculous frat-boy-esque marketing.

[Negix]

Sjofn wrote...

The marketing is completely stupid for DA2, yes. I'm sure it's because it's not FOR me, they're not trying to attract ME into playing their game. I find this a little sad, as they did similar things with the Mass Effects and the first Dragon Age. If my husband hadn't picked them up and insisted to me I would like them, I never would've tried them. And my goodness! They are possibly the most empowering games I've ever played as a lady. And I would've skipped them entirely because of the ridiculous frat-boy-esque marketing.

1. be carefull about calling the marketing  "ridiculous frat-boy-esque", you will propably insult the people who are actually attracted by their marketing
2. if it doesn't appeal to you its not necessarily stupid.

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


Yep, and the purists didn't matter for Jackson's film any more than they'll matter for DA2. Purists never matter.

Did I say or even imply that they mattered? I just pointed out that that particular scene didn't recieve any large amounts of praise and got some flak by people who thought it had no business being there.

Well, I thought you implied that it mattered by bringing it up, actually.

[ToJKa1]

Naitaka wrote...
 

That reminds me, will DA2 have female frontal jiggle physics?

[TheMadCat]

AlanC9 wrote..

Well, I thought you implied that it mattered by bringing it up, actually.

Not even close. The point was that despite PJ took flak for those type of scenes it ultimately didn't matter showing it's irrlevant just as the flak DA2 is taking at this point by the purists is also irrelevant. Did I need to make a special note that the flak PJ got from the scenes that took great liberties didn't matter? I thought that was universally accepted.

[Sjofn]

Negix wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

The marketing is completely stupid for DA2, yes. I'm sure it's because it's not FOR me, they're not trying to attract ME into playing their game. I find this a little sad, as they did similar things with the Mass Effects and the first Dragon Age. If my husband hadn't picked them up and insisted to me I would like them, I never would've tried them. And my goodness! They are possibly the most empowering games I've ever played as a lady. And I would've skipped them entirely because of the ridiculous frat-boy-esque marketing.

1. be carefull about calling the marketing  "ridiculous frat-boy-esque", you will propably insult the people who are actually attracted by their marketing
2. if it doesn't appeal to you its not necessarily stupid.

I am not worried about insulting people who actually like the marketing. However, your second point is missing part of what I was trying to say, so I shall clarify:

The marketing for those games was straight up misleading. It was all RAAR, THIS GAME IS X-TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!!111!! And it turned out the games were actually fairly thoughtful, rather than brainless slaughter-fests. Yes, they had actiony combat sequences, but they also had a lot of sections of the game that were less fast-paced, shall we say. So someone picking the game up because they just want to blow things up and KICK BUTT RAAR is going to be at least a little disappointed, and the person who would enjoy the game as it actually is is turned off because the game doesn't look anything like something they would enjoy. That's why I think it's stupid.

[Lord Gremlin]

This doesn't worry me. I love blood and gore in videogames, I've always did. My recent favorites are Splatterhouse and Fist of North Star. Well, gore and blood is not something I've been looking for in Dragon Age in particular but it's nice to see that the game is robust in this department.

Also, if rogues=ninjas then Isabella is a ninja pirate, and that give us 150% of awesomeness and therefore Isabella should collapse like a neutron star.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

Sjofn wrote...

Negix wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

The marketing is completely stupid for DA2, yes. I'm sure it's because it's not FOR me, they're not trying to attract ME into playing their game. I find this a little sad, as they did similar things with the Mass Effects and the first Dragon Age. If my husband hadn't picked them up and insisted to me I would like them, I never would've tried them. And my goodness! They are possibly the most empowering games I've ever played as a lady. And I would've skipped them entirely because of the ridiculous frat-boy-esque marketing.

1. be carefull about calling the marketing  "ridiculous frat-boy-esque", you will propably insult the people who are actually attracted by their marketing
2. if it doesn't appeal to you its not necessarily stupid.

I am not worried about insulting people who actually like the marketing. However, your second point is missing part of what I was trying to say, so I shall clarify:

The marketing for those games was straight up misleading. It was all RAAR, THIS GAME IS X-TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!!111!! And it turned out the games were actually fairly thoughtful, rather than brainless slaughter-fests. Yes, they had actiony combat sequences, but they also had a lot of sections of the game that were less fast-paced, shall we say. So someone picking the game up because they just want to blow things up and KICK BUTT RAAR is going to be at least a little disappointed, and the person who would enjoy the game as it actually is is turned off because the game doesn't look anything like something they would enjoy. That's why I think it's stupid.

dragon age 2 hasnt been marketed like that

www.youtube.com/watch and where is the "XTTTTTtREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMEE" part you said? seriously with your way of posting you seem like you never watched trailers and this one was on tv

Modifié par PrinceOfFallout13, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:02 .

[Addai]

Sjofn wrote...

The marketing is completely stupid for DA2, yes. I'm sure it's because it's not FOR me, they're not trying to attract ME into playing their game. I find this a little sad, as they did similar things with the Mass Effects and the first Dragon Age. If my husband hadn't picked them up and insisted to me I would like them, I never would've tried them. And my goodness! They are possibly the most empowering games I've ever played as a lady. And I would've skipped them entirely because of the ridiculous frat-boy-esque marketing.

Agreed, the early marketing was an active turn-off for me, too.  I kept hanging around this forum, though, because I thought it HAD to be better than what I was seeing.  Some of the later stuff has been more encouraging.

I guess they were trying to appeal to more of an action gamer, male market.

[Negix]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

dragon age 2 hasnt been marketed like that

www.youtube.com/watch and where is the "XTTTTTtREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMEE" part you said? seriously with your way of posting you seem like you never watched trailers and this one was on tv

agreed. none of the trailers were extremely violence focused. every single one of them showed something about the story or something like that.

Modifié par Negix, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:08 .

[thegreateski]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
 

*Snip*

That reminds me, will DA2 have female frontal jiggle physics?

[Saibh]

Lusitanum wrote...
And when the hell did I pointed that review out as proof that the game wasn't good? I was talking about the maturity of the game, but unfortunately I can't just copy/paste that section of the video (and it's not like you lose anything by watching the rest)

So you're right. If you're not even going to read things in their proper context, it really isn't worth responding.

He complains about everything.

Anything Yahtzee says is invalidated as an external source because he deliberately exaggerates and picks on things. I'm just saying, if you have to pull out something Yahtzee said to prove your point, you've done it wrong.

[Il Divo]

Liable****sman wrote...

Indeed, but now we are talking movies and not games.
Still, DnD was developed from a non-visual standpoint, and a lot of flair was added to each class to make is distinct from the next.

That's true, but I'd say that still applies to movies as well. If all action sequences were handled realistically, we'd lose alot of what made films like Hero so excellent, where it was part of the art style.

Take Baldurs Gate as an example of how to make the combat look like DnD, without turning it into some crazy over-the-top moves.

The problem with using Baldur's Gate as an example is that it was designed with all the technical limitations of its time period which limits the ability to portray 'over the top' abilities or any abilities other than a basic attack, for that matter. Take something like flask-kicking or shooting a giant in the eye. Nothing like that could ever have been portrayed in Baldur's Gate. 

However notice instead once we make the jump to 3D the kinds of abilities that Bioware began to include. Kotor's power attack allows the character to do a somersault complete with a smash attack or even Force Storm. In Jade Empire, you are able to chain back/front lips endlessly while taking on multiple opponents armed with swords. Mass Effect 2's charge ability. I'd point to the Urn of Sacred Ashes trailer for Dragon Age as an example for how even a glorified encounter might play out. You do truthfully have these characters performing these impossible feats.   

Okay.
As a side question: Have you read Tolkiens books? The first reason "Troy-like" wouldn't make sense, it because it doesn't fit the books. Not at all. That is the first, biggest and more glaring reason.

I made it through the first book of Fellowship of the Ring and found myself dissatisfied unfortunately. But I'm a little confused by your analogy. I thought with your reference to LOTR, you were trying to imply that it would have affected the maturity of the movie. I would agree that if they gave the combat sequences steroids however it would have been even farther from the book. My only point is that even with 'flask-kicking' I don't think that's really enough to nullify any hope of mature content. It will largely depend on the characters/plot and how they are handled, as you said a page back I believe.

Ex: Mugen and Jin from Samurai Champloo. In reality, 'break dance fighting' would never work, yet it's one of the most iconic aspects of Samurai Champloo and doesn't serve to diminish the mature themes handled in the anime.

You would not have blinked twice, perhaps, but that still does not answer my question. I am not asking something to like of "If Lord of the Rings featured more combat in the style of Troy, would it make sense?" but instead "If Lord of the Rings featured characters backflipping spontaneously, jumping 10 feet into the air, and moving around in flashes, would it make sense?"

Akin to Dragon Age's Urn of Sacred Ashes trailer? I still think  it would have made sense. Assuming all the changes they made were strictly in combat (Ex: not adding extra fight scenes for Aragorn, not cutting out plot, not 'upgrading' Arwen's breast size) Lotr would still have evoked all the emotional content/plot value that it previously had.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:41 .

[ToJKa1]

thegreateski wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
 

*Snip*

That reminds me, will DA2 have female frontal jiggle physics?

*snip*

What? with the size they seem to have, i'd be surprised if they didn't

Everything else seem to be targeted to 13 year olds, and us 30 year old thirteen year olds

Modifié par ToJKa1, 15 janvier 2011 - 09:44 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Agreed, the early marketing was an active turn-off for me, too.  I kept hanging around this forum, though, because I thought it HAD to be better than what I was seeing.  Some of the later stuff has been more encouraging.

I guess they were trying to appeal to more of an action gamer, male market.

It is more a matter of how you draw awareness to your game. A 1:20 CGI trailer that's short and easier to consume can get word of mouth going much better than a 10 minute podcast.

[Saibh]

thegreateski wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
 

*Snip*

That reminds me, will DA2 have female frontal jiggle physics?

I take this to mean either Tommy Lee Jones wants to watch, or Tommy Lee Jones has frontal jiggle physics.

[Demx]

Saibh wrote...

I take this to mean either Tommy Lee Jones wants to watch, or Tommy Lee Jones has frontal jiggle physics.

Oh you know he's just ogling the youngins.

[Psycho_Kenshin]

UndercoverDoctor wrote...

DARK FANTASY

HEAVY METAL DARK FANTASY, oh yes!

[thegreateski]

Saibh wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
 

*Snip*

That reminds me, will DA2 have female frontal jiggle physics?

*Snip*

I take this to mean either Tommy Lee Jones wants to watch, or Tommy Lee Jones has frontal jiggle physics.

He's sensitive about his "moobs"

[Darth Death]

This discussion is embarrassing. I can't believe people are complaining that certain animation moves means a entire game is "trying to hard". Pathetic...

[Liablecocksman]

Il Divo wrote...
That's true, but I'd say that still applies to movies as well. If all action sequences were handled realistically, we'd lose alot of what made films like Hero so excellent, where it was part of the art style.

I agree that movies that are combat/fight-centric often have a spectular style, or a certain type of flair to them. That is because the combat is features at such length, that it has to be very special and most of all not boring. By removing limitations created by reality, a movie is able to make combat appealing to watch, even for extended periods of time.

The problem with using Baldur's Gate as an example is that it was designed with all the technical limitations of its time period which limits the ability to portray 'over the top' abilities or any abilities other than a basic attack, for that matter. Take something like flask-kicking or shooting a giant in the eye. Nothing like that could ever have been portrayed in Baldur's Gate.

I'm quite certain you didn't kick flasks either, in DnD, but I see your point here.
Who knows how Baldur's Gate would have looked, if it was developed in 2010? It's impossible to tell.

However notice instead once we make the jump to 3D the kinds of abilities that Bioware began to include. Kotor's power attack allows the character to do a somersault complete with a smash attack or even Force Storm. In Jade Empire, you are able to chain back/front lips endlessly while taking on multiple opponents armed with swords. Mass Effect 2's charge ability. I'd point to the Urn of Sacred Ashes trailer for Dragon Age as an example for how even a glorified encounter might play out. You do truthfully have these characters performing these impossible feats.

Yes, and all those instances you mention are the exception, rather than the rule.

To attach a few words to the Sacred Ashes trailer (Having just rewatched it) I like most of it. I take issue with the fact that characters can jump 20 feet into the air, however, and both Leliana, Morrigan and Sten(He appears to just jump-attack the dragon at no exceptional height, but at cut-away you can say he started slicing into it scales at quite a considerable height) so I don't think Sacred Ashes is a good example for justifying your point, given that it was in no way a representative of the style within Dragon Age (Which I liked more than I will like what appears to be DA2 system, despite its flaws) and I fail to see the relation, if I can be honest with you.

I made it through the first book of Fellowship of the Ring and found myself dissatisfied unfortunately. But I'm a little confused by your analogy. I thought with your reference to LOTR, you were trying to imply that it would have affected the maturity of the movie. I would agree that if they gave the combat sequences steroids however it would have been even farther from the book.

Exactly. While you could argue that "It would make for a better movie-going experience", it wouldn't fit into the setting originally planned and written for the characters.

My only point is that even with 'flask-kicking' I don't think that's really enough to nullify any hope of mature content. It will largely depend on the characters/plot and how they are handled, as you said a page back I believe.

Oh, I think you have me at a disadvantage here.
Have we been arguing maturity?
I was under the impression that we were arguing what kind of style made sense in what kind of context.
No, aesthetics has nothing to do with maturity, as you point out I also wrote in my original post in this topic

Ex: Mugen and Jin from Samurai Champloo. In reality, 'break dance fighting' would never work, yet it's one of the most iconic aspects of Samurai Champloo and doesn't serve to diminish the mature themes handled in the anime.

Akin to Dragon Age's Urn of Sacred Ashes trailer? I still think  it would have made sense. Assuming all the changes they made were strictly in combat (Ex: not adding extra fight scenes for Aragorn, not cutting out plot, not 'upgrading' Arwen's breast size) Lotr would still have evoked all the emotional content/plot value that it previously had.  

Again, given that it wouldn't have fit the setting in which the characters were written, the characters themselves, or the plot (Some plot elements have to with combat, Imoen(Or whatever the kings daughter is named) and the witch-king of the nazgûl to name one. Boromirs death-scene would have to be rewritten, possibly be omitted (would it even have made sense for him to die, if he could do back-flips, and whirlwind attacks?) then again, if all the main characters can do backflips and jump around like wild monkeys - why can't the Uruk-hai, the goblins and the orcs? Etc. etc.
How would Frodo even be trapped by the spider(Whose name escapes me), if he can move in bursts at the speed of light? Why wouldn't Samwise just kill the orcs and rescue Frodo straight-away...

You see where I'm going with it?

While a lot of the Lord of the Rings revolve around conflict, just as much revolve around (or are affected by) the ineffectiveness (meaning non-godlike/over-the-top) in combat of the main characters. The main "badass"(Help me God I'm calling "Legolas" a badass) characters being Aragon, Legolas and Gimli are already awesome and overpowered enough. They don't need any more flair.

While the grim and realistic(as opposed to fantastic) style in which the combat often pans doesn't necessarily add more realism to the movie, going in the opposite direction would certainly remove it.
Remember the audience are already suspending their disbelief - and if you stretch it too far, it won't work.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:10 .

[In Exile]

TheMadCat wrote...
Not even close. The point was that despite PJ took flak for those type of scenes it ultimately didn't matter showing it's irrlevant just as the flak DA2 is taking at this point by the purists is also irrelevant. Did I need to make a special note that the flak PJ got from the scenes that took great liberties didn't matter? I thought that was universally accepted.

Yes. On this forum, many people take the purist position to be the desired one. I assumed that with your stance on realism, you would be against departures from source material.

[TMZuk]

Since a few people brought up the film-media as a reference, there are some good examples there.

Troy wasn't a very good film, considering the subject it attempted to deal with. A film about a demi-god, where the fact that Achilles ~is~ a demi-god is carefully avoided throughtout the whole movie. However, the individual combat-scenes was presented in an interesting manner: They were over the top fantastic, as they dealt with demigods and mythical heroes fighting. So that worked, while most of the film did not work.

In the other end of the spectrum there's a film like Rob Roy. There was a few duel-scenes and especially the final showdown between Tim Roth and Liam Neesen is hailed by critics and fans as realistic. In fact it is not. However, it ~looks~ realistic.For those who knows nothing about eighteen century fencing, it looks absolutely plausible, and for those who do know something, it is so well done that you are willing to suspend your disbelief.

DA:O and DA2 wishes to be dark, gritty fantasy-tales. Over the Top Fantastic works very poorly with Dark and Gritty. It makes it impossible, for me anyway, to suspend that by now famed disbelief. If Bioware was making a game about the ancient greek mythology, or a game about a celtic legend, or an oriental tale it would be fine. If it was an oriental tale i would know to stay clear of it, because with the exception of Kurosawa's movies, I cannot connect to that setting at all.

But as long as they claim to make a game that is "darker, grittier, sexier", a western fantasy game, Over the Top Combat contradicts the setting they claim to be presenting. It breaks the immersion, and makes some people lean back and say.. "What the...... is this about?" It is, IMO, inconsistent with the setting, and therefore an utter failure. Very much like Legolas' absurd skateboard ride over a mumakil.

Modifié par TMZuk, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:23 .

[Ziggeh]

TMZuk wrote...
DA:O and DA2 wishes to be dark, gritty fantasy-tales.

Does it? I know the marketing says that, but do you think the art department qualify things by the level of grit? Those things are subjective labels, and not very helpful in either making or judging content.

TMZuk wrote...
Over the Top Fantastic works very poorly with Dark and Gritty. It makes it impossible, for me anyway, to suspend that by now famed disbelief.

I don't believe you. I think you've decided that this is your personal line based on preference, which isn't the same as rendered incapable. Humans have great capacity for disbelief.

TMZuk wrote...
But as long as they claim to make a game that is "darker, grittier, sexier", a western fantasy game, Over the Top Combat contradicts the setting they claim to be presenting.

Unless their interpretation of those subjective terms allows for it, which, apparently, it does.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Liable****sman wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
That's true, but I'd say that still applies to movies as well. If all action sequences were handled realistically, we'd lose alot of what made films like Hero so excellent, where it was part of the art style.

I agree that movies that are combat/fight-centric often have a spectular style, or a certain type of flair to them. That is because the combat is features at such length, that it has to be very special and most of all not boring. By removing limitations created by reality, a movie is able to make combat appealing to watch, even for extended periods of time.

Reality can be fun to watch. Alas, many people have no idea how combat in reality really looks.


****

That said, there is a lot in DA2 that is jarring to me.
I have to admit that I too dislike flask-kicking, too flashy combat with over-the-top acrobatics and movement. Looks like a balet, no combat.

And of those developer vids...when the talked about the initial concept of Lychanthrope Hawke..and that dev that was so convinced that that was the amost awesome thing ever...That devs idea of awesome and mine appear to be polar opposite. I actually have a guy at work that looks almost exactly like him and shares his idea of awesome.
At that time during watching the vid I cringed.

I have trouble wording this train of thought properly and it's late, so I'll stop.

Suffice to say, I have quite a few fears regarding DA2. A lot of them.