192 réponses à ce sujet

[Dominus]

 Perhaps this can help clarify how it happened:

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par DominusVita, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:38 .

[marshalleck]

matt-bassist wrote...

if this bothers you so much (which is clearly does marshalleck) then dont play the game. you remind me of the family guy episode where they say the one guy is as stubborn as a mule. just go and lie down, or play some other game. youre wasting your life away by complaining about this.

Ah right, the "love it or leave it" defense. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:39 .

[RaduM]

I don't think there is a real way to cover up this plot hole.

They could have just had Shepard rescued by Cerberus at the last second, badly injured and in a coma for two years, that would have worked just as well.

But the way it is now... yeah. A wizard did it.

Modifié par RaduM, 15 janvier 2011 - 01:46 .

[Archontor]

matt-bassist wrote...

if this bothers you so much (which is clearly does marshalleck) then dont play the game. you remind me of the family guy episode where they say the one guy is as stubborn as a mule. just go and lie down, or play some other game. youre wasting your life away by complaining about this.

If he bothers you so much then go to a different page.

[Gleym]

It's relatively simple. Much like how Miranda can survive in low atmospheric, irradiated areas and planets, Shepard's armor was also made from a magical material created when space elves fart into supernovas. Upon being hit by the backlash of the exploding Normandy, the magical spacesuit material then dissolved and was absorbed into Shepard's outer layer of skin, granting him temporary space elf powers which allowed his body to survive the fatal and otherwise completely destructive passing through the planet's atmosphere, as well as the impact on the ground. Once on the ground, however, the magical space elf powers wore off, and Shepard instead suffocated without their helmet.

[marshalleck]

RaduM wrote...

I don't think there is a real way to cover up this plot hole.

They could have just had Shepard rescued by Cerberus at the last second, badly injured and in a coma for two years, that would have worked just as well.

But the way it is now... yeah. A wizard did it.

It's not a plot hole, it's just stupid.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Lazarus Project, by Double Chief Ultra-Doctor First class RinpocheSchnozberry, noted supermodel.

Step 1:  Is it a good story element?  Yes?  Go to Step 2.  No?  Step 7.

Step 2:  Place left hand at shoulder height to extreme left.

Step 3:  Place right hand at shoulder height to extreme right.

Step 4:  Bring left hand in toward right shoulder (not all the way) while simultaneously brining right hand in toward left shoulder (not all the way).  For best effect, alternate right hand over left hand and left hand over right hand during inward motion. 

Step 5:  Profit.

Step 6:  Project completed, Shepard ressurected.  Skip Step 7.

Step 7:  Punch self in testicles, uterus, or both.

[james1976]

I know I might get flamed for this post but I seem a vague similarity in this respect.

Both Mass Effect and anime Naruto/Naruto Shippuden use the phrase "no matter what" a number of times. There are a number of unexplained things in even the manga and it's referred to as "plot-no-jutsu" among the fans. Things that even though explained in terms of it's "world" that can even be a contradiction or simply doesn't seem logical. Not saying the two are related in any way. But I read the manga and see the phrase "no matter what" pop up enough that it reminds me of that. And plot holes are there whenever the writer needs to advance the story in a surprising way LOL

Modifié par james1976, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:32 .

[mackjr1234]

This is a Sci-Fi RPG. This is Mass Effect 2. Go. With. It.

[emanziboy]

The fail in this thread is astounding. It was the Lazarus Project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction? Really? It wasn't the magical element that can change an object's mass that drives 99% of the universe's technology and is what the entire series is named after? You know, the ONE THAT DOES NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE. And it wasn't the people who could use that magical element to move things around with their minds? No, I see what you mean, totally realistic. Hard science fiction right there. Hey wait, wasn't this stuff in ME1? Then this would be Drew Karpyshyn's fault- oh wait, I'm sure you'll just find another excuse to blame it on Mac Walters for whatever reason. Mass Effect was never even close to being hard science fiction at any point. For Bioware, story always comes first, even if they do sometimes ignore science in order to tell a great story.

[Drowsy0106]

Just wondering, which part of science fiction doesn't make sense to you guys?

[Layzr]

they stapled his bones back together, and squeezed some blood onto his body and then electrified his body, frankenstien style

edit: personally i had no proeblem with the lazarous project, i thought it was pretty cool and it didnt take away from the experience like some people int his thread seem to think it did, but yet they can beleive all the other stuff?

Modifié par Layzr, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:52 .

[nazgul1x]

mackjr1234 wrote...

This is a Sci-Fi RPG. This is Mass Effect 2. Go. With. It.

I think at the end of the day, that's all we can do.

I would have preferred (as was stated earlier) that after the suit rupture and "death", Sheppard was picked up by a silhouetted (unknown) vessel, and then on to the Lazarus project.

But I can live with it as is

[marshalleck]

emanziboy wrote...

The fail in this thread is astounding. It was the Lazarus Project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction? Really? It wasn't the magical element that can change an object's mass that drives 99% of the universe's technology and is what the entire series is named after? You know, the ONE THAT DOES NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE. And it wasn't the people who could use that magical element to move things around with their minds? No, I see what you mean, totally realistic. Hard science fiction right there. Hey wait, wasn't this stuff in ME1? Then this would be Drew Karpyshyn's fault- oh wait, I'm sure you'll just find another excuse to blame it on Mac Walters for whatever reason. Mass Effect was never even close to being hard science fiction at any point. For Bioware, story always comes first, even if they do sometimes ignore science in order to tell a great story.

Nope, "mass effect fields did it" was silly enough, but everyone knows that there has to be some sort of faster than light travel ability in order for space opera to work. Fine, whatever, I can deal with it. But it was totally unnecessary to kill Shepard and bring him back as though he's some sort of Biblical figure...tell me this, what role did it serve? What purpose? What is the significance of resurrection technology in the ME milieu? What exactly did Cerberus do to Shepard? What are the implications for one's sense of possessing a coherent self identity upon being informed that they've been dead for two years, that their remains were shopped around on the black market before being "rebuilt" in a lab? Is Shepard even human anymore? Is he a machine? Is he part husk, since we know Cerberus have been toying around with them for some time now? Tell me, when was ANY of this addressed in ME2? 

Never, that's when. It's a pointless plot device that was supposed to make Shepard going back to level 1 "make sense" in the game world, and that's all it was. How is that a "great" storytelling technique? They should have just left it out completely and not bothered to try to explain why Shepard is level 1 again, or a new class, or maybe has a new face. Just admit it's a minor metagame retcon for player convenience and move on. 

Totally unnecessary and stupid.

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:59 .

[ZachForrest]

They simply liquified all that space-cash and pumped it into him. Like a reaper. But cash moneys instead of colonists



science FACTion

[ZachForrest]

marshalleck wrote...


 They should have just left it out completely and not bothered to try to explain why Shepard is level 1 again, or a new class, or maybe has a new face. Just admit it's a minor metagame retcon for player convenience and move on. 

Bang on the money

[KingDan97]

desonnac00 wrote...

Scientifically, the Lazarus project IS SOUND!
Check it people. No, it isn't explained well, but IT IS POSSIBLE.

A human being is like a computer. Within our DNA is the memory of every single ancestor- that includes EVERYTHING. Facial stricture, memories, hair color, how to talk, walk, etc. That memory is the hard drive. It is NOT power dependant. OUR memories. The one we acquire SINCE BIRTH are RAM. They ARE power dependant. Shut down the power- it's gone. BUT the body also copies the RAM on to the hard drive. That's why people with amnesia sometimes recover memories of their entire life BEFORE the trauma that got them. Having Just a piece of Sheps body IS ENOUGH to reconstruct him/her. In present day, such tech to read DNA efectively is not available, but the science behind it IS SOUND. Unfortunetly, Bioware doesn't bother much with science in this sci-fi epic, but the fundamental principal is not outrageous. People who say: But how did Sheps brain survive- It DIDN'T and it didn't have to. 
To anyone who want to debunk me- This is still a more or less radical idea in modern day science and I do realise it sounds ridiculous to some/most of you, but again- The basic principle is SOUND.
After reading the DNA, It's just a matter of "building" Shep. Yes, you need tech to to remake the brain, synaptic pathways, essentially WRITE his/her memories once more with would be a rather traumatic expirience but bottom line- possible- yes. Easy- NO, but possible- yes.

Spoiler Alert: Assassin's Creed isn't based in fact.

[emanziboy]

marshalleck wrote...

emanziboy wrote...

The fail in this thread is astounding. It was the Lazarus Project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction? Really? It wasn't the magical element that can change an object's mass that drives 99% of the universe's technology and is what the entire series is named after? You know, the ONE THAT DOES NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE. And it wasn't the people who could use that magical element to move things around with their minds? No, I see what you mean, totally realistic. Hard science fiction right there. Hey wait, wasn't this stuff in ME1? Then this would be Drew Karpyshyn's fault- oh wait, I'm sure you'll just find another excuse to blame it on Mac Walters for whatever reason. Mass Effect was never even close to being hard science fiction at any point. For Bioware, story always comes first, even if they do sometimes ignore science in order to tell a great story.

Nope, "mass effect fields did it" was silly enough, but everyone knows that there has to be some sort of faster than light travel ability in order for space opera to work. Fine, whatever, I can deal with it. But it was totally unnecessary to kill Shepard and bring him back as though he's some sort of Biblical figure...tell me this, what role did it serve? What purpose? What is the significance of resurrection technology in the ME milieu? What exactly did Cerberus do to Shepard? What are the implications for one's sense of possessing a coherent self identity upon being informed that they've been dead for two years, that their remains were shopped around on the black market before being "rebuilt" in a lab? Is Shepard even human anymore? Is he a machine? Is he part husk, since we know Cerberus have been toying around with them for some time now? Tell me, when was ANY of this addressed in ME2? 

Never, that's when. It's a pointless plot device that was supposed to make Shepard going back to level 1 "make sense" in the game world, and that's all it was. How is that a "great" storytelling technique? They should have just left it out completely and not bothered to try to explain why Shepard is level 1 again, or a new class, or maybe has a new face. Just admit it's a minor metagame retcon for player convenience and move on. 

Totally unnecessary and stupid.

Wait, wait, wait. You said earlier that the Lazarus project was what turned Mass Effect from science fiction into science fantasy, but your defense for the mass effect fields was that they were neccessary for the story, so it's still science fiction?If it's made up, it's made up. You can't suddenly say that it was the Lazarus project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction when they've already been completely making stuff up before.

And, yes, the Lazarus project IS important to the story. A) It establishes the Collectors as a major threat seeing as how the took out the most advanced Alliance ship and Commander Shepard in one attack. The rest of the game is getting the right crew and upgrading the Normandy to be able to take them on. It is also what causes Commander Shepard to start working for Cerberus in the first place. If they hadn't gone through the extreme effort and cost of bringing him back, Shepard probably would not have joined a terrorist group. When people asked Shepard why he was working for Cerberus, the reason given was (for paragons at least) that they had rebuilt him after he died and were supporting him against the collectors.

As for addressing how he was revived, yeah, they talked about that too. How many conversations did you have with Jacob, Miranda, and the Illusive Man about how they brought him back? They all metion that there were no  cybernetics, no cloning, and no adjustments done to shepard. They wanted him exactly as he was before. And there were plenty of consequenses from being dead for two years, mostly to do with who your love interest was from ME1.

For someone who said they don't like to turn off their brain, you seem to do an awful lot of it.

[ZachForrest]

desonnac00 wrote...

Scientifically, the Lazarus project IS SOUND!
Check it people. No, it isn't explained well, but IT IS POSSIBLE.

A human being is like a computer. Within our DNA is the memory of every single ancestor- that includes EVERYTHING. Facial stricture, memories, hair color, how to talk, walk, etc. That memory is the hard drive. It is NOT power dependant. OUR memories. The one we acquire SINCE BIRTH are RAM. They ARE power dependant. Shut down the power- it's gone. BUT the body also copies the RAM on to the hard drive. That's why people with amnesia sometimes recover memories of their entire life BEFORE the trauma that got them. Having Just a piece of Sheps body IS ENOUGH to reconstruct him/her. In present day, such tech to read DNA efectively is not available, but the science behind it IS SOUND. Unfortunetly, Bioware doesn't bother much with science in this sci-fi epic, but the fundamental principal is not outrageous. People who say: But how did Sheps brain survive- It DIDN'T and it didn't have to. 
To anyone who want to debunk me- This is still a more or less radical idea in modern day science and I do realise it sounds ridiculous to some/most of you, but again- The basic principle is SOUND.
After reading the DNA, It's just a matter of "building" Shep. Yes, you need tech to to remake the brain, synaptic pathways, essentially WRITE his/her memories once more with would be a rather traumatic expirience but bottom line- possible- yes. Easy- NO, but possible- yes.

I love this. Where do they get these guys from!?

[marshalleck]

emanziboy wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

emanziboy wrote...

The fail in this thread is astounding. It was the Lazarus Project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction? Really? It wasn't the magical element that can change an object's mass that drives 99% of the universe's technology and is what the entire series is named after? You know, the ONE THAT DOES NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE. And it wasn't the people who could use that magical element to move things around with their minds? No, I see what you mean, totally realistic. Hard science fiction right there. Hey wait, wasn't this stuff in ME1? Then this would be Drew Karpyshyn's fault- oh wait, I'm sure you'll just find another excuse to blame it on Mac Walters for whatever reason. Mass Effect was never even close to being hard science fiction at any point. For Bioware, story always comes first, even if they do sometimes ignore science in order to tell a great story.

Nope, "mass effect fields did it" was silly enough, but everyone knows that there has to be some sort of faster than light travel ability in order for space opera to work. Fine, whatever, I can deal with it. But it was totally unnecessary to kill Shepard and bring him back as though he's some sort of Biblical figure...tell me this, what role did it serve? What purpose? What is the significance of resurrection technology in the ME milieu? What exactly did Cerberus do to Shepard? What are the implications for one's sense of possessing a coherent self identity upon being informed that they've been dead for two years, that their remains were shopped around on the black market before being "rebuilt" in a lab? Is Shepard even human anymore? Is he a machine? Is he part husk, since we know Cerberus have been toying around with them for some time now? Tell me, when was ANY of this addressed in ME2? 

Never, that's when. It's a pointless plot device that was supposed to make Shepard going back to level 1 "make sense" in the game world, and that's all it was. How is that a "great" storytelling technique? They should have just left it out completely and not bothered to try to explain why Shepard is level 1 again, or a new class, or maybe has a new face. Just admit it's a minor metagame retcon for player convenience and move on. 

Totally unnecessary and stupid.

Wait, wait, wait. You said earlier that the Lazarus project was what turned Mass Effect from science fiction into science fantasy, but your defense for the mass effect fields was that they were neccessary for the story, so it's still science fiction?If it's made up, it's made up. You can't suddenly say that it was the Lazarus project that ruined Mass Effect's science fiction when they've already been completely making stuff up before.

And, yes, the Lazarus project IS important to the story. A) It establishes the Collectors as a major threat seeing as how the took out the most advanced Alliance ship and Commander Shepard in one attack. The rest of the game is getting the right crew and upgrading the Normandy to be able to take them on. It is also what causes Commander Shepard to start working for Cerberus in the first place. If they hadn't gone through the extreme effort and cost of bringing him back, Shepard probably would not have joined a terrorist group. When people asked Shepard why he was working for Cerberus, the reason given was (for paragons at least) that they had rebuilt him after he died and were supporting him against the collectors.

As for addressing how he was revived, yeah, they talked about that too. How many conversations did you have with Jacob, Miranda, and the Illusive Man about how they brought him back? They all metion that there were no  cybernetics, no cloning, and no adjustments done to shepard. They wanted him exactly as he was before. And there were plenty of consequenses from being dead for two years, mostly to do with who your love interest was from ME1.

For someone who said they don't like to turn off their brain, you seem to do an awful lot of it.

I actually debated with myself earlier whether or not I should mention "mass effect fields did it" in my earlier post, but I decided not to in order to keep the focus of the thread on the Lazarus project. Shepard didn't need to "die" in order to establish the Collectors as a threat; in fact, they didn't even really kill him. Joker did. Way to go, Joker. 

It doesn't force Shepard to align himself with Cerberus--the colony abductions do. And what of Paragon Shepards who would not align themselves with Cerberus at all, given a choice? That certainly presents a problem. Not to worry though, Shepard can simply never be given a choice! The only thing forcing Shepard to work with Cerberus is the writing, which never allows Shepard to disagree with TIM, Miranda, or Jacob in any substantial, meaningful way. It's blatantly ham-fisted railroading. I doubt Paragon Shepard would associate himself with Cerberus just because he "owes" them one. 

As for talking about what they did to Shepard and what he is. They all provide a bunch of half-answers and nothing really specific, and Shepard's response is mostly deadpan disinterest. "Oh, so you decided against the control chip after all? Nifty, but I wasn't all that interested in the first place! Well now that I completely trust you 100% and I am not at all curious about what you did to me and I'm perfectly content with your brushing me off, let's go on a mission to save the galaxy together! Friends 4 ever!"

It's absolutely silly how simplistic and transparent this whole business is. This is good story telling? Give me a break. It's amateurish. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Lumikki]

Two variable, droping to planets surface from space and come back to life after the drop.

Droping from space to planet surface, the problems would be like, space temperature and vacuum, atmosphere entry heat, air as breating and impact to ground. Shepards armor can handle some of these stuff. It has own air support, It can stand vacuum, it has temperature control, it also has shields agaist impacts (gun fire). So, while it doesn't remove all the effects, Shepards armor reduse the problems. I think two bigger problem is atmosphere entry heat and impact to ground. If the ammor can handle the heat, then I ques there is small possibility survey from impact. Planet where Shepard droped was cold one, so it's good for surviving after dead.

Vesna Vulović survived from 10,160 meters free fall. So, I'm gonna assume the dying isn't the problem in future, if the damage isn't too big.

Then starts the Lasarus project, reparing the damage. Now I don't have enough knowledge about medical technology and human body to even ques how can someone be resurected from dead. I allways thinked that after sertain short time after dead it's not even possible. Also freezing doesn't do good for human cells, because humans have some much water in body and water expanse when become solid. What breaks the cells. How ever, if the armor did not break, then it could reculate the body temperature, even for dead one. After that it's just reparing damages. How ever, in Shepards body looked like it had cellular damages, how to hell they could fix that?

Modifié par Lumikki, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:20 .

[marshalleck]

Lumikki wrote...
 How ever, in Shepards body looked like it had cellular damages, how to hell they could fix that?

Well you see, Miranda is totally hot, and like brilliant or something. Also, credits. That's how!

At any rate, I don't think I have anything else to say here so I'm not going to keep harping on, repeating myself and irritating everyone else. If it worked for you, great. Personally I hope the writers spend a bit more time doing peer reviews for ME3.

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .

[Razagon]

Well there are cellular regenerations mechanisms, also with cloning and stem cells tretament.

Also there is a method wich we use at molelcular biology with plants especially which uses rapid freezing that evaporates water from cells without damaging cells at all or to minimal degree. Although it is a diffrent story.

[kane442]

there armor is just that bad ass...oh and you cant throw people with you mind either but people dont say anything about that ......its sci-fi and its a game, suspension of disbelief guys come on
EDIT
i dont know if it matters but he isnt all human hes got the implants so your more liike a nano-shep

Modifié par kane442, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:24 .

[ScorpSt]

Point 1: Nowhere in the game does it say Shepard landed on a planet. People assumed that because of the cutscene, but it's entirely possible Shepard just skimmed the atmosphere.

Point 2: There's no indication that the planet you see Shepard headed for is the same planet the Normandy crashed on. In fact, the Normandy itself was likely blown in the opposite direction of Shepard. If it passed close enough to another planet within the two years it was drifting...

Point 3: Among all the information the game gives you about the Lazarus project, I don't think they ever mentioned rebuilding or replacing brain-matter. It's entirely possible that the Illusive man (and the Collectors/Reapers for that matter) wanted Shepard back because so much of his/her brain was still intact. If the brain managed to freeze before too many cells started dying from oxygen loss, then all that would stand in the way of saving Shepard would be properly thawing the brain and keeping it oxygenated.

I leave you with two quotes to consider:

"Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh." - The Doctor
"...repeat to yourself 'It's just a show [game], I should really just relax.'" - MST3K Theme