192 réponses à ce sujet

[emanziboy]

marshalleck wrote...

I actually debated with myself earlier whether or not I should mention "mass effect fields did it" in my earlier post, but I decided not to in order to keep the focus of the thread on the Lazarus project. Shepard didn't need to "die" in order to establish the Collectors as a threat; in fact, they didn't even really kill him. Joker did. Way to go, Joker. 

It doesn't force Shepard to align himself with Cerberus--the colony abductions do. And what of Paragon Shepards who would not align themselves with Cerberus at all, given a choice? That certainly presents a problem. Not to worry though, Shepard can simply never be given a choice! The only thing forcing Shepard to work with Cerberus is the writing, which never allows Shepard to disagree with TIM, Miranda, or Jacob in any substantial, meaningful way. It's blatantly ham-fisted railroading. I doubt Paragon Shepard would associate himself with Cerberus just because he "owes" them one. 

As for talking about what they did to Shepard and what he is. They all provide a bunch of half-answers and nothing really specific, and Shepard's response is mostly deadpan disinterest. "Oh, so you decided against the control chip after all? Nifty, but I wasn't all that interested in the first place! Well now that I completely trust you 100% and I am not at all curious about what you did to me and I'm perfectly content with your brushing me off, let's go on a mission to save the galaxy together! Friends 4 ever!"

It's absolutely silly how simplistic and transparent this whole business is. This is good story telling? Give me a break. It's amateurish. 

Joker killed Shepard? I see what you mean. It wasn't the giant spaceship shooting lasers at the Normandy, it was a victim of the attack that killed Shepard. Great logic.

That logic also manages to carry over into your other arguments. The only reason Shepard even gives Cerberus a chance is because of the Lazarus project. If Cerberus had just gone up to Paragon Shepard asking him to join, he probably would have told them to shove it. They had to invest so much into bringing him back and suppling him with a new ship and intel before he would accept their help. When people asked him why he was working for Cerberus, them reviving him is almost always the first thing that comes up.

And Paragon Sheps disagree with Cerberus all the time. Shepard is always telling people that he doesn't really work for Cerberus, they're just supplying the mission. The only reason ParaShep doesn't cut ties completely is because no one else will help and the Illusive Man has the intel he needs. At the end of the game, when Shepard is the one holding all the cards, that's when a Paragon Shepard can give TIM the finger.

Also, not only did everyone in Cerberus mention how important it was to keep Shepard the way he was, even the journal entries on the Cerberus base mention that they had to bring Shepard back exactly the way he was before. Unless they somehow planned on their base being attacked allowing Shepard free access to their logs , I doubt they would lie in their own journals.

Yeah, the writing was sooo terrible that the opening was universally praised and was even nominated for IGN's most memorable moment in a game. Oh, wait...

Modifié par emanziboy, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:04 .

[Ahglock]

james1976 wrote...

I know I might get flamed for this post but I seem a vague similarity in this respect.

Both Mass Effect and anime Naruto/Naruto Shippuden use the phrase "no matter what" a number of times. There are a number of unexplained things in even the manga and it's referred to as "plot-no-jutsu" among the fans. Things that even though explained in terms of it's "world" that can even be a contradiction or simply doesn't seem logical. Not saying the two are related in any way. But I read the manga and see the phrase "no matter what" pop up enough that it reminds me of that. And plot holes are there whenever the writer needs to advance the story in a surprising way LOL

I give things like manga and other long term series a bigger pass.  Lots of times they write things, and then 5 years later are like wow I'm still writing this.  I'd have written this differently if I thought this story would go for so long.  Well I'll do my best using my plot-no-jutsu(like the term thanks) to wiggle out of the hole I dug as best i can. 

Movies, games I have less sympathy for.  You should be able to keep crap straight for one offs like that. 

The ME2 intro just came across as bad to me. It was unnecessary.  Injured and in a coma for 2 years works just as well. Forcing cerebus also unnecesarry, having him leave means you duplicate the intent of the Tim lines with appropriate alliance dude.  The cerberus team mates you come up with some ham fisted way to keep the main ones, the rest you replace with alliance voice actor 5.  Bad plot things to get out of a hole you dug because you didn't think there would be a sequel, fine it sucks but at least it is necessary.  Bad plot things for no good reason just suck with no redeeming feature.. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:08 .

[ZachForrest]

emanziboy wrote...


Yeah, the writing was sooo terrible that the opening was universally praised and was even nominated for IGN's most memorable moment in a game. Oh, wait...

IGN being, naturally, arbiters of all that is good. I believe their specialty is identifying good writing.

Judging from the amount of stick it gets on here and other places, I don't reckon the praise is universal. I didn't notice any specific reference to how good the opening is in any reviews either

[Bullets McDeath]

It's cool, because he was like... DEAD, totally effed up, man. And then they like made him into this kickass revenge cyborg to kick some ****ing ass and ****.

If you have put more thought into it than the above sentence, you have wasted your time. It is a plot device, a hook and arguably even a McGuffin of sorts. It makes things seem dangerous, the Collectors a threat (even if you blame Joker, the Collector Cruiser still ass-lanced the Normandy, not bad) forces Shepard to obey the plot. If you thought this was a "true RPG" where you can get a job knitting baskets and only go where you want to go, you haven't been paying attention. It's a science fiction movie where you get to decide how big an **** the main character is or isn't.

/rant

Modifié par outlaworacle, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:11 .

[Archontor]

On the subject of pargon shep working for cerberus it could be fear....bare with me he knows that cerberus bought him back to life, he dosn't know if miranda was truthful about that hole controll chip thing which means running away could cause TIM to snuff out his free will. Secondly they bought him back to life-if the mechanism that keeps him working were to 'fail'....



In either of these scenarios it makes it impossible for him to stop the collectors or reapers or bring down cerberus (presumably a pargon decision) hence his compliance.

[emanziboy]

ZachForrest wrote...

emanziboy wrote...


Yeah, the writing was sooo terrible that the opening was universally praised and was even nominated for IGN's most memorable moment in a game. Oh, wait...

IGN being, naturally, arbiters of all that is good. I believe their specialty is identifying good writing.

Judging from the amount of stick it gets on here and other places, I don't reckon the praise is universal. I didn't notice any specific reference to how good the opening is in any reviews either

Before Mass Effect 2 was released, around December 2009, there were a bunch of previews about Mass Effect 2's opening. Read those and try telling me it wasn't given universal praise.

[Destroy Raiden_]

For OP, people have already gone over this the people saying it’s impossible and giving very logical and physic related reasons as to why Cerberus could’ve done what they did are basically bashed for looking too much into it while those who take it al at face value are basically bashed for their unrealistic thinking. The easiest test I can give to everybody is freeze an egg go on top of a building and drop it off does the freezing help the egg to live, does it die, or is it semi preserved and if it is preserved is there enough to glue an egg back together with what remains? Basically I look at it as it doesn’t’ matter how shep died the fact he hit the ground FROM SPACE makes him/her a pancake at best and at worst turned into meat cubes on impact. Remember people the same science BW is using to say shep somehow lived from that type of fall is the same going into how the collector ship on Horizon blasts off and the ground has no holes and isn’t even chard.

[Lumikki]

ScorpSt wrote...

Point 1: Nowhere in the game does it say Shepard landed on a planet. People assumed that because of the cutscene, but it's entirely possible Shepard just skimmed the atmosphere.

Point 2: There's no indication that the planet you see Shepard headed for is the same planet the Normandy crashed on. In fact, the Normandy itself was likely blown in the opposite direction of Shepard. If it passed close enough to another planet within the two years it was drifting...

Yes and No. There is few stuff in Normandy Crash site DLC what implified some stuff. As this is no spoiler area, I just give link, you will find stome stuff there..

Normandy Crash Site (spoilers)

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Basically I look at it as it doesn’t’ matter how shep died the fact he hit the ground FROM SPACE makes him/her a pancake at best and at worst turned into meat cubes on impact.

That's not necassary true. It depense alot of stuff. Example where did Shepards body drop as impact. Meaning the material where drop also has affect the situation as how soft it is. Example Shepard droped very cold planet (-22C) with alot of ice and snow. Snow is very soft and if there was alot of it, it reduse the impact damage alot. Also Shepard armor if it survived the atmosphere entry heat, can soften situation alot too, because it has shield technology (spoiler) what is design to reduse impact (kinetic) energy.

My point is that assuming worst isn't necassary what could happen. It's up to what eveyrone here wants to assume. Meaning pancake and mean cupes aren't even likely unless body did hit someting very hard like metal or  solid rock.

Modifié par Lumikki, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[HyenaLobo]

Responding to OP: Well to be honest there was never any confirmation that Shepard actually fell to the surface of that planet. Yes he was in the atmosphere, but he would be far too small to get pulled to the surface like a meteor. Also not every planet has an atmosphere as dense as Earth's, some planets don't have much atmospheric buffering, so the feeling would be more pressure than friction.



So lets just say Shepard's cause of death was Asphyxia (suffocation). Then his body froze. So use some scifi-cyber punk imagination, cellular re-growth, tissue rebuilding, bone reconstruction and some artificial tissue, organs, nanomachines and cybernetic implants=Brand New Shepard. lol

[Razagon]

So is this a thread about possible/impossible scientific explanation or s thresd was it stupid and unnecessary writing. What I am asking is does anyone actually care or are you just arguing for the sake of it

[Destroy Raiden_]

Archontor wrote...

On the subject of pargon shep working for cerberus it could be fear....bare with me he knows that cerberus bought him back to life, he dosn't know if miranda was truthful about that hole controll chip thing which means running away could cause TIM to snuff out his free will. Secondly they bought him back to life-if the mechanism that keeps him working were to 'fail'....

In either of these scenarios it makes it impossible for him to stop the collectors or reapers or bring down cerberus (presumably a pargon decision) hence his compliance.

I never thought of it like that. Some people claim their Sheps are impervious to fear but we know he/she can at least be angry and looking at Shep as a human not a hero, or game character he/she would experience fear and doubt and all other negative emotions even if they're one that is good at hiding in public. Privately when no one is watching is when they would let that calm emotionless exterior fall.

If I was para Shep I would at least test the leash so to speak and see if I did do this will a consequences happen. Like in fable in the spiral tower you have been fitted with a shock collar of sorts that also drains your life the man in charge says do this and you can say no. I'm constantly testing my chains with that guy not because I enjoy my character in agony but because I want to show that person that I still have will if nothing else I've got that. But Shep doesn't or should I say not allowed in the script to do this except once when you get the Cerberus data you can give it to the Alliance to hopefully weaken Cerberus in the future but it will do you little to no good now all that is possible is to show the Alliance you didn't leave them by choice and that's considering the message is even signed by Shepard.

I just expected para shep to kick the cage a few times but ultimately he didn't. If shep is somehow forced back into working with Cerberus or working for the reapers in 3 if the script writers write a scene in which the player can feel I should be able to kick back verbally or physically here then BW should allow for this to happen sure not all players will take it but it's there for those of use feeling the urge to try even if it fails we at least get the satisfaction of being able to attempt it.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Lumikki wrote...

ScorpSt wrote...

Point 1: Nowhere in the game does it say Shepard landed on a planet. People assumed that because of the cutscene, but it's entirely possible Shepard just skimmed the atmosphere.

Point 2: There's no indication that the planet you see Shepard headed for is the same planet the Normandy crashed on. In fact, the Normandy itself was likely blown in the opposite direction of Shepard. If it passed close enough to another planet within the two years it was drifting...

Yes and No. There is few stuff in Normandy Crash site DLC what implified some stuff. As this is no spoiler area, I just give link, you will find stome stuff there..

Normandy Crash Site (spoilers)

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Basically I look at it as it doesn’t’ matter how shep died the fact he hit the ground FROM SPACE makes him/her a pancake at best and at worst turned into meat cubes on impact.

That's not necassary true. It depense alot of stuff. Example where did Shepards body drop as impact. Meaning the material where drop also has affect the situation as how soft it is. Example Shepard droped very cold planet (-22C) with alot of ice and snow. Snow is very soft and if there was alot of it, it reduse the impact damage alot. Also Shepard armor if it survived the atmosphere entry heat, can soften situation alot too, because it has shield technology (spoiler) what is design to reduse impact energy.

My point is that assuming worst isn't necassary what could happen. It's up to what eveyrone here wants to assume. Meaning pancake and mean cupes aren't even likely unless body did hit someting very hard like metal or  solid rock.

Well if a plane falling from the sky and hitting water is like hitting concrete then falling from space and hitting snow, dirt, soft dirt, or water is the same thing. Shields would've burned out upon reentry so even if a backup back somehow lived through the burning process it ain't doing much.

Also for the posters saying no evidence of shep hitting the ground how did his/her helmet get there did his/her head pop off while circling the planet in space? A recovery team taking a floating body in space would get the body not remove the armor and lets say they got the body in space then threw away the helmet it is small and so would've burnt up in the atmosphere if the shield didn't protect it. Another question how is it the mako survived looking nearly new? I don't think anyone has asked this one yet.

[james1976]

Razagon wrote...

So is this a thread about possible/impossible scientific explanation or s thresd was it stupid and unnecessary writing. What I am asking is does anyone actually care or are you just arguing for the sake of it

Personally I don't care.  I think it is cool that they explain how some things work within the game and I really enjoy the codexs they provide but I am not going to pick at every little thing.  As far fetched as the Lazarus Project may be, they explained it as best they could.  I think they could have come up with something else but it is what it is.  You found Shepard's original N7 helmet at the Normandy crash site, so there is no reason to believe his body wasn't found on the planet.  His resting place was aparently the Normandy's final resting place.  This is unless of course he was scooped up before he totally entered the planet's atmosphere as it was showing that he had started to do. 

At the beginning of ME2 there is a bunch of white text that appears quickly and disappears so fast I've never been able to read it all.  It looks like it has to do with what took place while you were comatosed but as I said, it disappears faster than I can read it.

[Razagon]

Bioware are a video game developers, not a Nobel prize physicists and biologists. And they rock at what they do. If you can accept ftl but not lazarus then that is just weird at least to me. I see enough of what science can or can't do and a little fiction is always welcome. They should just continue what they are doing and leave the possibilities to scientists. What if they decieded to just teleport Shep from space or planet? Would that be acceptable? I mean warp errr ftl is.

[Lumikki]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Well if a plane falling from the sky and hitting water is like hitting concrete then falling from space and hitting snow, dirt, soft dirt, or water is the same thing. Shields would've burned out upon reentry so even if a backup back somehow lived through the burning process it ain't doing much.

My point is that there is alot of possibilities one way or other, what could have happen. People here can assume the worst or the better. How ever, we do know what happen the after, so we know Shepards body condition after the situation.

Also for the posters saying no evidence of shep hitting the ground how did his/her helmet get there did his/her head pop off while circling the planet in space? A recovery team taking a floating body in space would get the body not remove the armor and lets say they got the body in space then threw away the helmet it is small and so would've burnt up in the atmosphere if the shield didn't protect it. Another question how is it the mako survived looking nearly new? I don't think anyone has asked this one yet.

There was one player here ones in this forum making assumtion, that Shepard used that Mako to land from space. There was a alot of assumption how Shepard got from space to Normandy cargo space. It was about using the armors air to direct movement. Litte funny, but nice assumtion too. Then using Mako landing system, what would explain why Mako is so good condition.

Modifié par Lumikki, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:52 .

[Ryzaki]

2 words



Space magic

[amers1015]

Ryzaki wrote...

2 words

Space magic

This. 

[Archontor]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Archontor wrote...

On the subject of pargon shep working for cerberus it could be fear....bare with me he knows that cerberus bought him back to life, he dosn't know if miranda was truthful about that hole controll chip thing which means running away could cause TIM to snuff out his free will. Secondly they bought him back to life-if the mechanism that keeps him working were to 'fail'....

In either of these scenarios it makes it impossible for him to stop the collectors or reapers or bring down cerberus (presumably a pargon decision) hence his compliance.

I never thought of it like that. Some people claim their Sheps are impervious to fear but we know he/she can at least be angry and looking at Shep as a human not a hero, or game character he/she would experience fear and doubt and all other negative emotions even if they're one that is good at hiding in public. Privately when no one is watching is when they would let that calm emotionless exterior fall.

If I was para Shep I would at least test the leash so to speak and see if I did do this will a consequences happen. Like in fable in the spiral tower you have been fitted with a shock collar of sorts that also drains your life the man in charge says do this and you can say no. I'm constantly testing my chains with that guy not because I enjoy my character in agony but because I want to show that person that I still have will if nothing else I've got that. But Shep doesn't or should I say not allowed in the script to do this except once when you get the Cerberus data you can give it to the Alliance to hopefully weaken Cerberus in the future but it will do you little to no good now all that is possible is to show the Alliance you didn't leave them by choice and that's considering the message is even signed by Shepard.

I just expected para shep to kick the cage a few times but ultimately he didn't. If shep is somehow forced back into working with Cerberus or working for the reapers in 3 if the script writers write a scene in which the player can feel I should be able to kick back verbally or physically here then BW should allow for this to happen sure not all players will take it but it's there for those of use feeling the urge to try even if it fails we at least get the satisfaction of being able to attempt it.

Well i would imagine it's part of the plan, if he tips TIM off he might become even more scruitinised so he could be waiting for the moment to strike however the entire idea is totaly hypothetical and based off a charecter with no fixed personality- i can't directly refute that he would kick the cage, but i can say what i think seems most sensible, not that playing mind games with a spy master is my area of experience

also yes i too loved that part of Fable 2.

[Pwner1323]

Reaper tech. That's what I've told myself all this time.

[Kane-Corr]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Reaper tech. That's what I've told myself all this time.

Nah, Shep ain't no Paul Grayson. Reaper tech involves seemingly overpowering indoctrination, basically with every subject. Nanobots= reaper tech=indoctrination=husk/hybrid being controlled by Repaers. This is most definately NOT the case.

Pkus, having read Retribution= you figure out that the final decision was for nothing anyways and Cerberus harvests tech= discover reapers can control you from dark space= TIM is an idiot.

[Pwner1323]

Kane-Corr wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Reaper tech. That's what I've told myself all this time.

Nah, Shep ain't no Paul Grayson. Reaper tech involves seemingly overpowering indoctrination, basically with every subject. Nanobots= reaper tech=indoctrination=husk/hybrid being controlled by Repaers. This is most definately NOT the case.

Pkus, having read Retribution= you figure out that the final decision was for nothing anyways and Cerberus harvests tech= discover reapers can control you from dark space= TIM is an idiot.

TIM was investigating, things like this happen. As for the reaper tech, EDI uses it and nothing bad happened. For all we know, Shepard is like Paul, just not controlled by Harbinger.

The point is that we do not know. It can be reaper tech for all we know.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

james1976 wrote...
As far fetched as the Lazarus Project may be, they explained it as best they could.

No, they didn't.  They didn't even try.  All they did was show maybe 30 seconds of a custcene with robotic arms moving around and injecting some magic blue liquid.

They don't give any kind of explanation; again, they don't even try.  All the people you can talk to about it (namely Jacob) say "You'll have to ask a scientist about that."  Well, okay, where are they?  You can ask about the project when talking to Miranda but all she does is change the subject talking about control chips, and Shepard quickly forgets that she might want to reaffirm to herself that she's not a zombie cyborg.

And the various recordings you find on the station are just really lazy ways of trying to convince the player to buy BioWare's BS. 
"The project cost was astronimical!!" = OMG that's so impressive!!
"The project will fail if Shepard isn't exactly who she was before!!" = Wow, if Miranda said it then that must be the case!!

Honestly, they should have at least tried to explain it, or touched upon the themes of resurrection in the story.  But, no, it's just a way to serve their plot.

[_punt172o]

One word..

TUSSIN!!!!!

Sheperd's remains were submerged into a giant vat of robitussin!

Then they just let ole sheperd simmer for about 2 years and BAM HE'S JUST LIKE NEW AGAIN! 

Look at the word "robitussin"...

It almost sounds like "robot..tussin"... A form of tussin that works on robots..

**** I'm ready to write for bioware now, i'm a mother ****ing genius.

[Kane-Corr]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Kane-Corr wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Reaper tech. That's what I've told myself all this time.

Nah, Shep ain't no Paul Grayson. Reaper tech involves seemingly overpowering indoctrination, basically with every subject. Nanobots= reaper tech=indoctrination=husk/hybrid being controlled by Repaers. This is most definately NOT the case.

Pkus, having read Retribution= you figure out that the final decision was for nothing anyways and Cerberus harvests tech= discover reapers can control you from dark space= TIM is an idiot.

TIM was investigating, things like this happen. As for the reaper tech, EDI uses it and nothing bad happened. For all we know, Shepard is like Paul, just not controlled by Harbinger.

The point is that we do not know. It can be reaper tech for all we know.

OK. If it was reaper tech installed into Shepard, then TIM has an OUTSTANDING knowledge of it. Well.....not the case, actually. He is blinded by his corrupt ideas of having humanity on top as well as his anger/revenge against Grayson, and voila! He manages to unleash a smaller scale human Reaper unto the galaxy! Not only that, but they were able to leanr more about US! Great move TIM! You really ARE on top of things! You'd think he would try to battle the Reapers, but no, he gets GREEDY. It's not pure investigation, it's greed.

[Kane-Corr]

AND...EDI used the IFF...NOT the same thing....that was just an Identify Friend Foe device. Plus...Indoctrination does not work on AI...look at the Geth. They aren't indoctrinated, but just believe that they should follow the Reapers. As explained by Legion. So...you cannot compare EDI and Shepard at all. Two totally different instances.