192 réponses à ce sujet

[Draconis6666]

Kane-Corr wrote...

AND...EDI used the IFF...NOT the same thing....that was just an Identify Friend Foe device. Plus...Indoctrination does not work on AI...look at the Geth. They aren't indoctrinated, but just believe that they should follow the Reapers. As explained by Legion. So...you cannot compare EDI and Shepard at all. Two totally different instances.

EDI herself is designed based upon technology salvaged from Sovereign's wreckage the IFF has nothign to do with her using reaper tech  really as she is already a hybrid of reaper tech from the begining.

[Casuist]

Suron wrote...
the only thing that could possibly be explained to have saved his body from being smeared when it hit the planet is the armor he was wearing's kinetic shields still being active and absorbing at least enough of the force of impact to keep his body from being disintegrated on impact.

that's the ONLY way it can be saved.

Terminal velocity may not have even been twice that of some non-fatal car-crashes in the present day. Yes, the scenario requires major scientific advances to explain how the hardsuit could accomplish that, but it is not valid to claim that it is either 1) physically implausible or 2) even the biggest stretch in the ME universe.

but then that brings up....how did he "burn" up like they said? and what was "venting" from his/her helmet just before the fade to black?  what was venting and why? I thought those suits had air-supplies..so what happened? that was never explained...

The most readily explanation as to what was venting was air. The "burning up" quotes that exist are extremely vague and insubstantial/insubstantiated. There is no thorough in-universe description of the condition of Shepard's body immediately post-recovery.

hell they should have just said that the suit protected Shepard and he WAS still alive when he was found but TERRIBLY disfigured and eff'd up because of impact or something....

That's basically what they do say. The suit and the scenario preserved him/her adequately. Clinical death isn't particularly significant, brain death is another question, and if the suit is set to protect the brain against the impact and deep freeze then the plot is plausible. Neither hazard is as extreme as this thread make them out to be.  

[JKoopman]

Suron wrote...

but then that brings up....how did he "burn" up like they said?

Kinetic barriers don't protect the wearer from fire, so whether his barriers were active or inactive, he still would've burned up on re-entry.

Suron wrote...

and what was "venting" from his/her helmet just before the fade to black?  what was venting and why? I thought those suits had air-supplies..so what happened? that was never explained...

Oxygen. And actually, is was explained if you pay attention during the opening cutscene. The explosion caused by the Collector beam weapon while Shepard was loading Joker into the escape pod causes Shepard to be flung backwards and slams him hard into the corner of a bulkhead, either cracking his suit or severing one of his air hoses.

One possible way for Shepard to have "survived" re-entry (and by survived, I mean his body wouldn't be totally obliterated) would be if the planet he was falling towards had low gravity and/or a thin atmosphere. According to the Mass Effect wiki's page on Alchera (the planet that the Normandy Crash Site mission takes place on), the planet has a surface gravity of 0.85 Earth's and atmospheric pressure of 0.83 atm. I'm not sure if that's enough to make any sort of noticable difference, but it's something to consider.

[pcrisipm]

mass effect is meant to entertain -- to involve the player in a story and allow him/her to influence the outcome of the story by creating and playing out a unique persona.

the important point here is the 'story' itself and not its minor details.

when Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek the ships were meant to land on the planets, but the studio couldn't afford that so he just replaced the landing of the ships by beaming down the people to the planet's surface. problem solved.

bioware needed shepard to get in the hands of cerberus.

shepard dies. liara salvages shepard's body and hands it over to cerberus for reconstruction. problem solved.



just out of curiosity, your only problem is the lazarus project? you're ok with the rest of the mass effect 'science'?

I for one am much more disturbed by the fact that although my shepard is a kickass biotic (vanguard) she gets her ass kicked by tela vasir during the window fall from the baria frontiers offices... I want my vanguard/adept shepard to be able to use biotics to fly, too!!

[Arijharn]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Except for the fact it was compromised by shrapnel from the explosion.

Except that shields regenerate constantly anyway.

[zmanwithaplan]

Arijharn wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Except for the fact it was compromised by shrapnel from the explosion.

Except that shields regenerate constantly anyway.

Yeah but air is visibly seen leaking out of his suit after the explosions.
I don't think I can even imagine a way he didn't go splat, but maybe because he was wearing a suit designed for space, it had some sort of automated planetary re-entry mechanism? (parachute lol) And so, if he entered the atmosphere of that nearby planet fast enough (which science tells us would not have happened, gravity pulls reallly slowly when you're far away) and assuming that planet has an oxygen rich atmosphere (likely since we see him 'burning up' on entry, he could have just been in a coma or something... idk lol

[RAF1940]

Infiltrator wrote...

Well, it could be potentially very, VERY easy to explain. Just look at the medicine/biology ~200 years ago. Try to imagine telling people from that time what we're doing today? Most of it would sound like magic to them.

Now try to imagine medicine +200 years from now. And imagine by that time that humanity has made contact with aliens/different planets with different resources that basically cause an explosion in medicinal branches and possibilities. From that point of view reviving doesn't seem that far fetched, at least to me.

I agree with you. Also, it's more like 400 years in the future.

You compensate for the actual 200 years, and Anderson says in ME1 ".....it jumped our technology forward 200 years...." when referring to the Prothean tech found on Mars.

[Omnicrat]

desonnac00 wrote...

Scientifically, the Lazarus project IS SOUND!
Check it people. No, it isn't explained well, but IT IS POSSIBLE.

A human being is like a computer. Within our DNA is the memory of every single ancestor- that includes EVERYTHING. Facial stricture, memories, hair color, how to talk, walk, etc. That memory is the hard drive. It is NOT power dependant. OUR memories. The one we acquire SINCE BIRTH are RAM. They ARE power dependant. Shut down the power- it's gone. BUT the body also copies the RAM on to the hard drive. That's why people with amnesia sometimes recover memories of their entire life BEFORE the trauma that got them. Having Just a piece of Sheps body IS ENOUGH to reconstruct him/her. In present day, such tech to read DNA efectively is not available, but the science behind it IS SOUND. Unfortunetly, Bioware doesn't bother much with science in this sci-fi epic, but the fundamental principal is not outrageous. People who say: But how did Sheps brain survive- It DIDN'T and it didn't have to. 
To anyone who want to debunk me- This is still a more or less radical idea in modern day science and I do realise it sounds ridiculous to some/most of you, but again- The basic principle is SOUND.
After reading the DNA, It's just a matter of "building" Shep. Yes, you need tech to to remake the brain, synaptic pathways, essentially WRITE his/her memories once more with would be a rather traumatic expirience but bottom line- possible- yes. Easy- NO, but possible- yes.

This is impossible based on our current understanding of genetics.  Overlooking the many other reasons why this is wrong I'm not sure how to explain, I'll go with the ones I can explain.

1)  To store ones "specieal memory" in DNA, the amount of DNA would need to increase greatly in each generation.  This does not happen.  It would mean insainly large genetic structures and it would not be possible for people from different generations to breed.

2)  To store ones own memory in DNA, they would either add DNA in some fasion (while they sleep, continually, Idk) or modify a large pre-set section of DNA (if this happened [which it doesn't] it could potentally work [if it treated the non-sensical combination of parental genetic memory as unreadable]). 

Neither of these happen.  We know for a fact neither of these happen.  To call it scientific in any way, shape, or form is... grotesquly misinformed, at best.  I'm sure someone probably alread made a post like this, but I felt an obligation a cumpulsion to write it up myself.

[RiouHotaru]

Infiltrator wrote...

Well, it could be potentially very, VERY easy to explain. Just look at the medicine/biology ~200 years ago. Try to imagine telling people from that time what we're doing today? Most of it would sound like magic to them.

Now try to imagine medicine +200 years from now. And imagine by that time that humanity has made contact with aliens/different planets with different resources that basically cause an explosion in medicinal branches and possibilities. From that point of view reviving doesn't seem that far fetched, at least to me.

People also seem to forget that TIM poured four BILLION credits into the project, and that was going OVER-BUDGET.  Wilson states in the logs that they had several huge hurdles and near-misses.  And that the fact the project succeeded at all makes it a HUGE medical miracle.

Bascially, the risks involved with this project were immense, and any number of mishaps could've spelled doom for them.  The fact they were successful at all is an achievement.  I wish people would stop forgetting this.  I realize the game doesn't go into much detail, but you DO know the stakes that were involved in the project.  Just because the game glosses over the project doesn't diminish the impact.

[Legbiter]

Whatever they did they restored Shepard down to the quantum level as he was before dying. Throw in the Reaper tech that was used and you might as well say "a wizard did it".



Hope they don't kill Shepard by DM fiat again in ME 3.

[TexasToast712]

punt172o wrote...

Yes the cold may preserve matter to a point but the vacuum alone... I don't get it... lol... How was this possible? There is no way a body even with some armor can survive planetary re-entry. I can't believe none of this was explained. WTF?!

Is there a better explanation of how the Lazarus Project worked?  Like some kind of codex that goes into detail? A youtube video? Does someone know of some resource that explains this properly?

Right now, NONE of this makes any sense. Like absolutely NONE.   Not even .5% ....... I know this is a game, but this makes like NO SENSE AT ALL. lol

Do they give any explanation to any of this in the game? 

I'm very close to uninstalling this stupid game, the reason I play Mass Effect One is because they tried to explain things as much as possible in accordance with real life rules.  I know it's just a game, but remember how well they explained interstellar networks? Latency?  I mean these guys pay attention to detail.

But now the intro to Mass Effect 2 DOESN'T MAKE ANY ****ING SENSE, NONE AT ALL. I'm sooo pissed...

Get over it, you are NOT uninstalling this game, you WILL continue to play it and you WILL NOT question the logic of this game and you WILL buy ME3, and YOU WILL LIKE IT,

Enjoy your experience.

[Last Vizard]

FOZ289 wrote...

It's not. The brain cells are dead, and they can't be brought back. I'm not even into biology and I can see that the whole "Lazarus Project" is a load of crap. It seems a good number of people have a problem with the whole "science = magic" attitude of Mass Effect, as well as the whole thing with killing Shepard, jumping forward two years, and so little has changed.

Yes, science does seem like magic to primitives.

[Arijharn]

zmanwithaplan wrote...
Yeah but air is visibly seen leaking out of his suit after the explosions.
I don't think I can even imagine a way he didn't go splat, but maybe because he was wearing a suit designed for space, it had some sort of automated planetary re-entry mechanism? (parachute lol) And so, if he entered the atmosphere of that nearby planet fast enough (which science tells us would not have happened, gravity pulls reallly slowly when you're far away) and assuming that planet has an oxygen rich atmosphere (likely since we see him 'burning up' on entry, he could have just been in a coma or something... idk lol

What if... (and bear with me while I pull crap out of my ass)

When Shephard made planetfall, he heated the ice and fell into it which collapsed and rapidly froze him in, but because of the fact that he was exposed to gases and the low temperatures of the planet, it put him into a sort of 'suspended animation' in the sense that there wasn't catastrophic damage to his brain tissue.

Such as .

A while ago I found a link on Youtube that was talking about utilizing a certain gas that temporarily suspends a person's life functions in the sense of slowing down heartbeats etc, but I can't find the link anymore and I've spent about 30 minutes trying to find it. It's not under 'suspended animation' though, and I can't remember how exactly I got there but I knew I started looking at stuff like Electromagnetic Reactive Armor (and yeah, I can't remember how that ended up with suspended animation; although I think 'that sounds cool' was running through my mind at the time)

[JuicElawl]

you can do amazing things with duct tape.

[Siegdrifa]

I think they were more expecting people to be stuned by the idea like " whaaaoooo !?" in order to make stuning, never seen game introduction ever.

Instead, it's mostly "WTF ?????" no body believe it .... it's just breaking a basic rule in writting, don't treat death condition lightly.


The only thing if remember, it was in ME1 i think, during an elevator sequence, the radio spoke about a discovery from some scientist that say, cells can be saved even after the death of patient and that's why death among people should not be considered when the brain stop working.
It was something like this... but i can't get it again when i play.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:35 .

[Bluko]

I hear you OP.

There isn't really any good answer for how the Lazarus project worked, because apparently the whole idea while making ME2 was just to make shooting things funner. And people who like shooting things cause it's funner probably don't care too much whether something is reasonably possible or not. But they really dropped the ball with the science background in ME2 no doubt. Which was a huge disappoint since in ME1 I felt they did a good job actually making a Sci-Fi game with some reasonable scientific explanations.

I mean I'm no expert in Physics, Chemistry, or Biology, but any halfway intelligent person who paid attention in Highschool should see the impossibilities and impracticalities of a lot of what happens in ME2. I realize it's just a game, but Shepard's body would not have survived re-entry at all. I could suspend my belief enough that they could revive a frozen brain dead Shepard floating in space by the miracles of 22nd century science. But that's not what the cinematic shows... Then you have squadmates not wearing full suits in vacuums or toxic environments which should kill them. Biotics doesn't even try to be reasonable and is pretty much just full-blown space magic now. Guns also apparently went from not running out of ammunition to now requiring limited-use heatsinks. How that is a technological advancement is baffling. It makes about as much sense as going from guns tat are all full-auto to guns that are all bolt-actions.

(Spolier)
Then you have the whole thing of humans being melted down into raw materials to make a Reaper and somehow using our genetic material to carry our human conscience over into the Reaper. Suffice to say that Reapers are made out of "genetic paste" is pretty bad. I can understand converting bodies into raw materials to a point, but I always thought a Reaper's mind was built by indoctrinating said species and then uploading all the information in their minds to form a super-collective consciousness of a sorts and that becoming the Reaper. But apparently ME2 went the way of Assassin's Creed where our DNA somehow magically contains all the information of us and our ancestor's lives and that apparently Reapers can build an intelligence from that.

Basically ME2 doesn't give a crap about science.

Sadly most people don't seem to notice or care. I'm hoping ME3 will do a better job, but seeing as reviews all raved about how great ME2 was I doub they'll change much or try any hard to have decent scientific explanations for phenomenon in ME3.

[InvincibleHero]

Except it seemed to me definite planetfall and they recovered fragments of the body. The head seemed fully intact and they somehow rejuvenated the heart and blood to keep a minimum circulatory function to the heart and brain. His skin and muscles were thoroughly charred and bones were just a few fragments. There is no way he was mostly intact. Lucky if they recovered 30% of shepard's body mass.

[Fro_McJoe]

Magic IN SPACE!!!!!!

[pcrisipm]

mass effect is supposed to entertain, not teach you science. maybe there's some moral lessons somewhere (someone else has to point out some examples, it's 4a.m. here and one of my eyes is already shut and asleep), but certainly not science lessons.

plus, it's not just mass effect and it's not because it's game. just try and name a sci-fi tv series or film which is scientifically accurate.

[jeweledleah]

I don't know if its been mentioned before, but..

FIFTH ELEMENT EFFECT.

remember that movie? where all they have left to rebuild the perfect being is a charred alien hand, and the perfect being they rebuild doesn't even look like that alien?

after being able to suspend your disbelief enough to accept that, it becomes much easier to accept that they could have rebuild Shepard with using a LOT of tech, over the course of years, rather then hours or even minutes like in Fifth Element

Modifié par jeweledleah, 18 janvier 2011 - 02:35 .

[Nerevar-as]

Is it certain Shepard went all the way down? In the comic they mention the body is so damaged they can´t even tell whether it´s male or female, but a crash at terminal velocity shouldn´t leave even that much.

About Lazarus, no problem with reconstructing the body, but I´m doubtful his reconstructed brain didn´t seem to have memory problems (besides Akuze-Cerberus for Sole Survivors). I´d rather it stayed like if the alternative is bringing up genetic memory however.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Yeah. Unfortunately, there's no good explanation or exposition on that matter. It wasn't that gamebreaking for me as I put my mind with well let's say, 400+ years of technological advancement, Cerberus should have done some pretty messy experiments to have the technology behind it so add some more 50+ years in human medicine, and screw it, science fiction and they had to reset the stats somehow. But I think people on this thread showed some clues or scientific theories like the one on Assassin's Creed geneic memory that was bashed, I actually like that one. There's a nice video in Gametrailers where Michio Kaku gives some insight about it.



Hear, this is just like FTL, telekinesis and dark energy. Remember, there's no element zero to cover these elements, Mass Effect universe is mostly on scientific theories to cover the fiction on it: pseudoscience. Bioware created some explanation on the codex for the thermal clips, I agree it's disappointing they didn't even try with the Project Lazarus, I think they could come up with something.

[didymos1120]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Is it certain Shepard went all the way down? In the comic they mention the body is so damaged they can´t even tell whether it´s male or female, but a crash at terminal velocity shouldn´t leave even that much.

You know, people have actually survived terminal velocity falls. This terminal velocity thing is not a real issue. I mean, yeah, it could be if ShepCorpse just plowed into a rock or something, but Alchera's also covered in snow, and there are plenty of sloped surfaces. The problems lie elsewhere.

[Halo Quea]

jeweledleah wrote...

I don't know if its been mentioned before, but..

FIFTH ELEMENT EFFECT.

remember that movie? where all they have left to rebuild the perfect being is a charred alien hand, and the perfect being they rebuild doesn't even look like that alien?

after being able to suspend your disbelief enough to accept that, it becomes much easier to accept that they could have rebuild Shepard with using a LOT of tech, over the course of years, rather then hours or even minutes like in Fifth Element

The tech isn't issue, it's never has been.   The problem is that Bioware felt it needed to KILL Shepard in the first few minutes of the game just to ease the great Alliance Hero into bed with Cerberus with as few explanations possible.   That Bioware doesn't bother to share any real information with us about the last two years seems to suggest that they never actually developed the backround story of the Lazarus Project beyond being a plot device that get's Shepard working directly for TIM.

As it's been said many times before around here, all it would have taken at the beginning of ME2 was for Shepard to investigate the crisis in the Terminus Systems, he then would have gone to the Council and the Alliance for help about the Collectors.  Being turned down or discredited by both, Shepard gets an offer from the TIM.  Shepard having no other options would accept the Cerberus offer.    But instead Bioware played the same game they do with ALL of their main characters.  It's truly amazing how much Bioware loves repeating themselves.  Death, coming back to life, amnesia or  reprogramming the main character with a new identity.   It's really getting OLD.

It's like other things with ME2.  Ashley sees my Shepard after two years of thinking he's dead and picks a FIGHT with him. She irrationally accuses him of being a traitor and Bioware gave us no dialogue options to  properly respond.  Ashley then later apologizes in an email of all things and sends us some poetry.   lol!    Why couldn't Ashley have just said,  "I can't go with you this time Skipper, Alliance has me on urgent business"  Instead Bioware sends Ashley into a paranoid rant that was completely unnecessary.   

I could be wrong but I think Bioware used TIM as a way of communicating with fans of ME1 who they knew would be hung up on some of their decisions for ME2.  TIM is constantly telling us to put our past behind us, forget old friends and alliances.   It's a bit insulting but message received.  Same thing with Lazarus, it wasn't important to Bioware to explain to us what it all meant, just that it got us working with Cerberus.