23 réponses à ce sujet

[USArmyParatrooper]

I kind of see warriors as vanilla pocket knives whereas a rogue would be a Swiss army knife.

Both have the same weapons trees (with the warrior additionally having Two-Handed or Sword-Shield), so everything else comes down to class and specialization talent trees.

Roque Advantages: 

- A properly built melee rogue deals way more damage.

- The utility of lockpicking, trap detection and disarmament and stealth.

- Ubber strong defense that turns a base-CON, light armor wearing roque into a very durable tank.

- A couple of different stun choices for point targets. Dirty Fighting is a strong stun that you get right from the beginning.

Warrior Advantages: 

- Can wear heavier armor, though many common roque builds more than compensate for that.

- Has specializations that can cover areas where the roque is lacking. AoE knockdowns via Champion war cry, mitigating magical threats via Templars, etc.

- Less utility talent requirements means higher tier combat talents can be reached quicker.

- Heavier armor is better looking and gives you greater appearance choices. Light armor all looks the same, and for the life of me I don't know why Bioware did that.


Factoring in all things it seems to me the roque is the clear winner. Mages are in a class of their own and can't be compared. They can do many, many things - like throw huge AoE bombardments, freeze enemies, block doorways, heal party members, etc. that roques and warriors cannot.

Roques also fill a unique role with their utility talents. In fact, for traps and locks there's isn't even away to improvise using other classes.

So what irreplaceable function does the warrior bring to the table? A well built melee roque delivers more damage, and dare I say is more durable. Without the ability to open locks or stealth way ahead of the front lines to disarm traps - the lack of a roque would be a dramatic change to the battle field. Likewise, the lack of a spell caster would do the same. But say you have two are three roques and no warriors.... meh... not so different from a pragmatic standpoint.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:53 .

[Naitaka]

Since when did Rogue get sword and board talent tree? Not to mention, once you get to Awakening, a spirit warrior archer will absolutely destroy everything in sight.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Naitaka wrote...

Since when did Rogue get sword and board talent tree? Not to mention, once you get to Awakening, a spirit warrior archer will absolutely destroy everything in sight.

It was poorly worded so I edited it.

I haven't toyed around with a SW Archer in Awakening, so I'll have to check that out. Still... being very strong with a certain class and talent in a DLC isn't exactly a game changer.

[Naitaka]

from a min-max perspective in Origin, I agree that Rogue just seem like a better choice in general, but that doesn't mean a warrior isn't as much, or possibly more fun, to play. It all comes down to what you are looking for on that particular playthrough. Also, I've been having alot of fun playing with "Awakening in Origin" mod lately, even though it's so ridiculously unbalanced to the point it's almost humorous.

Check here if you want to see a SW archer in action. 900+ auto attack damage with vulnerability hex is nothing to scoff at.

Modifié par Naitaka, 15 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[Zahe]

A point you forgot is that rogues, in general, are more high-maintenance as well as a lot more fragile if they are going the cunning route. But all in all I would say there isn't that much of a difference anyway.

[Jzadek72]

szekeres2010 wrote...

Warriors work far better for me, a Two-Handed with Perfect Striking can kill a roge in a second, no matter the defense, only some chanse to avoid physical attack can save the unfortunate rogue. Pommel Strike can break stealth if a targeted rogue enemy stealths in combat. Warriors are far better in killing things, rouges are mostly for utility, I never enjoyed playing as a rogue enough to actually finnish the game with one.

I fought a boss with my dual-wielding combat rogue. The boss, an undead Avvar lord, was nearly exactly like you described your warden. He only hit me five times, and this was nightmare. My health regenerated to full in the space between his hits.

[soteria]

Ser Cauthrien will use perfect striking.

[Last Darkness]

Depends on how you look at it. But there is certain crossovers that blurr the line between the two classes.



Though I dont know who you got your info from but I know a way to make a Warrior do more damage then a rogue ever could.

[ussnorway]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
So what irreplaceable function does the warrior bring to the table?

Nothing!

Having said that, I can see how playing a warrior would appeal to some people from a role-play point.

[BigBad]

I've never been able to take a rogue past Ostagar. They just don't hold the same appeal to me. My preferred build is a 2H Warrior Champion/Templar. With the best massive armor and greatsword, it's just really fun to play. You not only look badass, but you feel it, too. Rogues, no matter how deadly, just feel wimpy. And sure, lockpicking is an awesome tool, but you could go through the whole game without picking a single chest and really only miss out on a little bit of easy xp and some vendor trash.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Last Darkness wrote...

Though I dont know who you got your info from but I know a way to make a Warrior do more damage then a rogue ever could.

How?

[USArmyParatrooper]

BigBad wrote...

I've never been able to take a rogue past Ostagar. They just don't hold the same appeal to me. My preferred build is a 2H Warrior Champion/Templar. With the best massive armor and greatsword, it's just really fun to play. You not only look badass, but you feel it, too. Rogues, no matter how deadly, just feel wimpy. And sure, lockpicking is an awesome tool, but you could go through the whole game without picking a single chest and really only miss out on a little bit of easy xp and some vendor trash.

Can you elaborate? Surely you didn't mean you "can't" make it past Ostagar with a rogue literally. Also, what do you mean by them feeling whimpy? Roques are anything but...

Even at the beginning when they have low STR with no Lethality, the Dirty Fighting ability more than makes up for it.

Also, while it's true most locked chests don't contain anything epic the EXP and monetary gain from the items adds up bigtime over time. No doubt you can do without them, but it certainly changes the face of the game.

Being able to stealth way ahead of the party and disarm all the traps is also really cool. The same with being able to stealth in combat.

You can make warriors into great tanks and damage dealers. But the same is easily achieved with rogues as well, and nothing you do to a warrior can make them play the roque's roll.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[Elhanan]

I cannot speak much of a Cunning Rogue by experience, but I do trust that there is a decent reason why it seems to be the most common build. But if the highest dps build is not attractive, I still prefer a STR/DEX Rogue over any of my Warriors.

I enjoy 2H quite a bit, but they have to cross the field of battle before engaging in melee. In the meantime, a decent Rogue has whittled down the hp of said foe via Archery, then has a wide range of weapons at their disposal in which to finish the task. But before that occurs, they are able to disarm all the traps, unlock and loot all the containers, steal the gold out of the teeth, etc.

Rogues are far more versatile, and may be designed in a few varied ways.

[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

I've never been able to take a rogue past Ostagar. They just don't hold the same appeal to me. My preferred build is a 2H Warrior Champion/Templar. With the best massive armor and greatsword, it's just really fun to play. You not only look badass, but you feel it, too. Rogues, no matter how deadly, just feel wimpy. And sure, lockpicking is an awesome tool, but you could go through the whole game without picking a single chest and really only miss out on a little bit of easy xp and some vendor trash.

Try this design for a change of pace, and see what you think:

STR to 20 ASAP, then go to 38+; adj 42 is recommended by end game.
DEX max
Cunning 30
Will 20-30 as you prefer.
Mgc and CON at base

I start the game using the Battledress DLC, then trade for Evon's mail when it becomes avilable. You can use light to massive armors, though as a hybrid Archer, I prefer to remain with a heavy breastplate to maintain RoF. You have a wider array of armor, shields, and weapons, and can still loot a room under Stealth before killing anyone; comes in very handy in the forest ruins, the Deep Roads, and Denerim to name a few spots

[tonnactus]

szekeres2010 wrote...

Yes that fight isn't much of a challenge for a TH-Warrior on Nightmare too, none of the boss fights are really, but I don't recall seeing enemy use perfect striking to boost attack.

Loghain. The enraged spirits in the anvil of the void.Even Kolgrim above level 10.

[Elhanan]

szekeres2010 wrote...

I had no idea so many bosses use perfect striking, I haven't noticed it before. Perhaps I will make a STR/DEX rogue with duelist specialisation, here are the stats I've figured out:

STR: 60
DEX: 36
WIL: 18
MAG: 14
CUN: 30
CON: 16

The attributes are closer to warrior stats, but I think I give a try, this way I can use The Veshialle, and The Rose's Thorn, the defense will be on the same level as of the cunning rogues, but I will have a lot more attack.

I tend to recommend capping STR at38-42, and increasing DEX; mostly for Defense and Archery/ Accuracy.

[Elhanan]

szekeres2010 wrote...

High defense is not vital if there is a tank in the party, but high damage is more important I think, that is what TH Warriors taught me anyway. I thought about 38-42 STR but since I don't plan to use heavy or massive armor I only pump STR to make the most out of the main hand weapon (Veshialle) with its 1.10 Strength Modifier the damage will be better. DEX is nice, but every point put in DEX will be missed in STR and basically that would only increase the off-hand weapon damage (Rose's Thorn), and that would be a waste because of the low 0.85 Strength Modifier. Not to mention 50% STR and 50% DEX damage calculation.

Just for the sake of ref:

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Attributes

Even a 2H requires heavier armor; mine do anyway.

DEX covers Melee Attack and Physical Resist like STR, buy only adds to Melee Dmg on piercing. However, DEX also grants Defense (even more desired if NOT using heavy or massive armors), and Ranged Attack bonus (no need to run to them if you have a method making them hustle or die); add Accuracy for improved long ranged options.

Modifié par Elhanan, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:17 .

[BlazingSpeed]

A warrior can use talents to keep from falling on his/her butt from enemy AOE attacks pretty early in the game. Much better durability early on without sacrificing any attribute points for armor instead of cunning or dex IMO the hardest part of the game is level 7-14 and while Rogues are still building themselves up (Armor penetration etc...) Warriors are good to go especially if you go to the DLC places for armor and weapons early on. Rogue have high DPS right off the bat because of daggers and poor design Bioware should have left the daggers bugged and fixed the crossbows instead.



However, even in the vanilla game there are certain spots of the game where enemies can OHKO Rogues stealth or not Crushing Prison in the Deep Roads will kill most rogues within a few seconds Overwhelm (the wolf encounter...), chain Rams, grabs and other auto attacks will completely ignore your rogue's defense granted in the vanilla game most of the enemy talents are bugged anyway like the monster wolf howl.



Most people who have played Dragon Age at least once will know where the enemies and goodies are Bioware should have made a randomizer function luckily a few PC mods already do this including making the enemies tougher smarter and changing the way that threat works.



In the vanilla game under the right conditions Rogues can be nearly unstoppable but with PC difficulty mods Rogues become swishy little things that are batted around until they die due to smarter enemies and different threat parameters meaning the more damage you do to an enemy means you ****** his friends off the Rogue's high DPS will make them the life of the party for all of six seconds.

[termokanden]

You have to realize that cunning-based builds are best used with a party to back you up. You should be backstabbing with such a build anyway. If you do have a party to back you up, you're not going to get one-shotted by Overwhelm, Crushing Prison, Curse of Mortality, etc. If so you're doing something wrong anyway.



If you want to play solo with a rogue, I'd say it's better to go with a dex build. If you're still worried about taking too much damage from Overwhelm and unavoidable attacks in general, the solution is to play like a warrior and just get some strength for armor. Yes, that works for rogues as well. Combine with Combat Stealth and you'll have more survivability than a warrior, not less.