If the Chantry used the Ashes to extract concessions from monarchs, it would be an incentive for them to take the Chantry on, so they wouldn't have to pay those concessions. Whether they would, would depend on what the Chantry wanted and how afraid the monarchs are of death.
But again, I don't think it's entirely plausible the Chantry would do so with -all- the Ashes since the Chantry's pilgrims would expect benefits themselves, and the issue would be so publicly prominent. People really genuinely believe the Chantry is good and that would be a huge amount of capital to forgo. The Chantry's ability to call Exalted Marches seems to rest on its public support, after all. (I seem to recall reading about one the Chantry tried to call on the mages in its own cathedral, which failed due to its unpopularity.)
the best urn of sacred ashes ending?
Débuté par
bcooper56
, janv. 15 2011 07:50
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#52
Posté 27 janvier 2011 - 05:05
LobselVith8
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Satyricon331 wrote...
If the Chantry used the Ashes to extract concessions from monarchs, it would be an incentive for them to take the Chantry on, so they wouldn't have to pay those concessions. Whether they would, would depend on what the Chantry wanted and how afraid the monarchs are of death.
Take on the Chantry? You mean take on the religious institution that virtually all humans in Andrastian nations take to be the mortal representatives of the Maker? Yeah, I don't think it'd worth out too well for any rulers who disagreed.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 janvier 2011 - 05:06 .
#53
Posté 27 janvier 2011 - 05:41
shatteredstar56
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I never had the dragon go on a killing spree, the Urn always disappeared, which I liked, or it was exploited by the Chantry. I do wonder what happened to Leliana if she led an expedition and you hadn't killed the dragon.
#54
Posté 28 janvier 2011 - 05:56
Satyricon331
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Satyricon331 wrote...
If the Chantry used the Ashes to extract concessions from monarchs, it would be an incentive for them to take the Chantry on, so they wouldn't have to pay those concessions. Whether they would, would depend on what the Chantry wanted and how afraid the monarchs are of death.
Take on the Chantry? You mean take on the religious institution that virtually all humans in Andrastian nations take to be the mortal representatives of the Maker? Yeah, I don't think it'd worth out too well for any rulers who disagreed.
While they might not be able to do anything too overt, I doubt they're such powerless puppets of the Chantry as you're painting. Compare the real world - in the Middle Ages before the Reformation, virtually all humans in western European nations took the Pope to be the mortal representative of God, but plenty of them defied him and operated even under excommunications. Many Italian city-states were perfectly happy to resist the papacy's annexation attempts before the Pope forswore secular dominion. The only difference to Thedas is that the Chantry has Templars everywhere, but the Templars don't seem situated to coerce monarchs. And again, the Chantry would have to keep these Ashes somewhat secret from the public if it were using them to blackmail kings into concessions rather than releasing it based on medical need, meaning the kings could easily push back by revealing what the Chantry was attempting.
I love that DA's lore is so rich we can have the political economy disagreements!
#55
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 04:42
LobselVith8
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Satyricon331 wrote...
While they might not be able to do anything too overt, I doubt they're such powerless puppets of the Chantry as you're painting.
They have a monopoly on religion in the Andrastian nations, and even Maric and Loghain realized they couldn't kick out the Chantry despite the Orlesian occupation and the Chantry's full support of it. I fail to see how any kind of action the Chantry takes regarding the Urn could be subverted by any ruler - which is why it's simply not an option for me. I have no interest in enpowering them.
#56
Guest_The Water God_*
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 07:26
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ejoslin wrote...
Satyricon331 wrote...
I still don't get what the risk is? Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'm just curious to know what you think they could likely do in the name of the Urn that would be so bad it would offset the chance the medicine would help people.
Until, of course, the ashes ran out... Think of all the donations that would be made to the chantry by the rich! Admission fees to the poor! There is huge potential for exploitation there, and the Chantry IS known for exploiting people...
I kind of doubt they would try to exploit anyone. As the epilogue suggest the temple became a mecca for pilgrims, so really they have no more of a chance of using it for explotation than anyone else who happened to stumble upon the ashes. Maybe even less considering how often they raise money for charity.
#57
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 12:55
ejoslin
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The Water God wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Satyricon331 wrote...
I still don't get what the risk is? Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'm just curious to know what you think they could likely do in the name of the Urn that would be so bad it would offset the chance the medicine would help people.
Until, of course, the ashes ran out... Think of all the donations that would be made to the chantry by the rich! Admission fees to the poor! There is huge potential for exploitation there, and the Chantry IS known for exploiting people...
I kind of doubt they would try to exploit anyone. As the epilogue suggest the temple became a mecca for pilgrims, so really they have no more of a chance of using it for explotation than anyone else who happened to stumble upon the ashes. Maybe even less considering how often they raise money for charity.
An exploitation doesn't have to be overt. NOTHING has to be outright stated -- just having an artifact that powerful is a power in itself. People saying that the ashes will be used for everyone medicinally cannot be correct as, well, there's a limited amount. And if it's under the Chantry's control, guess who decides who gets it? Will they give this miracle cure to the common folk? Not likely. To the very top of the chantry, of course. Will governments not wish to alienate the Chantry because they may have a personal need? Of course.
And IIRC, popular shrines historically have made a lot of money off pilgrims donating what they could.
#58
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 04:35
Satyricon331
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ejoslin wrote...
And if it's under the Chantry's control, guess who decides who gets it? Will they give this miracle cure to the common folk? Not likely. To the very top of the chantry, of course.
Actually, you've changed my mind. I could see the Chantry monopolizing it to itself. If they shared I think they could engender resistance from monarchs etc. who disliked whatever allocation the Chantry decided, but if the Chantry just had a blanket rule that the Ashes were for the Divine and other holy people then I could see people really buying into the idea.
#59
Guest_The Water God_*
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 08:44
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ejoslin wrote...
The Water God wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
Satyricon331 wrote...
I still don't get what the risk is? Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'm just curious to know what you think they could likely do in the name of the Urn that would be so bad it would offset the chance the medicine would help people.
Until, of course, the ashes ran out... Think of all the donations that would be made to the chantry by the rich! Admission fees to the poor! There is huge potential for exploitation there, and the Chantry IS known for exploiting people...
I kind of doubt they would try to exploit anyone. As the epilogue suggest the temple became a mecca for pilgrims, so really they have no more of a chance of using it for explotation than anyone else who happened to stumble upon the ashes. Maybe even less considering how often they raise money for charity.
An exploitation doesn't have to be overt. NOTHING has to be outright stated -- just having an artifact that powerful is a power in itself. People saying that the ashes will be used for everyone medicinally cannot be correct as, well, there's a limited amount. And if it's under the Chantry's control, guess who decides who gets it? Will they give this miracle cure to the common folk? Not likely. To the very top of the chantry, of course. Will governments not wish to alienate the Chantry because they may have a personal need? Of course.
And IIRC, popular shrines historically have made a lot of money off pilgrims donating what they could.
But I thought there was an ending where Leliana states she was going to back to the urn of sacred ashes to make sure its protected. I would think that she would've objected to the Chantry using it as an explotation.
#60
Posté 29 janvier 2011 - 08:47
ejoslin
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The Water God wrote...
ejoslin wrote...
An exploitation doesn't have to be overt. NOTHING has to be outright stated -- just having an artifact that powerful is a power in itself. People saying that the ashes will be used for everyone medicinally cannot be correct as, well, there's a limited amount. And if it's under the Chantry's control, guess who decides who gets it? Will they give this miracle cure to the common folk? Not likely. To the very top of the chantry, of course. Will governments not wish to alienate the Chantry because they may have a personal need? Of course.
And IIRC, popular shrines historically have made a lot of money off pilgrims donating what they could.
But I thought there was an ending where Leliana states she was going to back to the urn of sacred ashes to make sure its protected. I would think that she would've objected to the Chantry using it as an explotation.
How much power do you think unhardened Leliana has over the Chantry? How much control do you actually think she'll be given in this matter? My SWAG is none at all.
Edit: You don't even get a slideshow card regarding that particular thing. Here is what she says:
Leliana: I've been asked by the Chantry to return to the Urn of Sacred Ashes. I need to make sure it's protected. Maybe pilgrims can even begin going there again.
Warden: Are you sure that's a good idea?
Leliana: Of course I do. I can't think of anything more important... I can give something back to the entire world! (breathless, speaking with religious fervor)
I have a feeling Leliana will be in for a rude awakening on this front. And my guess is that's protection she speaks of is from crazy cultists, not from the chantry itself.
Modifié par ejoslin, 29 janvier 2011 - 08:55 .
#61
Posté 02 février 2011 - 06:58
nubbers666
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i kill the dragon and gen and pollute the ashes and walk off with a big smirk on my face
#62
Posté 07 décembre 2011 - 07:34
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You can't really think that the Chantry won't take advantage of this discovery. Either by hiding the discovery or turning the entire mountain into a pilgrimage site, the potential for exploitation is there. Judging by how they treat magi and/or anyone who defies them, why would anyone believe solely in their goodness? From an RPG perspective, my Human Noble doesn't completely buy into their rhetoric and supports magi whenever and wherever he can. It's mainly due to their vehement self-righteousness that he can't find the space to support them absolutely. In his mind, "The ends should not justify the means." A concept that is clearly lost on the Chantry.
I especially liked how the Revered Mother in Lothering went ballistic on me for bringing Sten into the Chantry. Here, I was hoping she'd show some charity and send us on our way in peace, with the hope that we'd find redemption by doing service to mankind. Instead, she cursed me and threw us out. I'd say she missed an opportunity to better herself in the Maker's eyes.
I especially liked how the Revered Mother in Lothering went ballistic on me for bringing Sten into the Chantry. Here, I was hoping she'd show some charity and send us on our way in peace, with the hope that we'd find redemption by doing service to mankind. Instead, she cursed me and threw us out. I'd say she missed an opportunity to better herself in the Maker's eyes.
#63
Posté 07 décembre 2011 - 06:52
ShimmeringDjinn
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Agreed. That's why my mages have started murder knifing Brother Genitivi:devil: Can't have him running off back to Denerim and telling the Chantry about the ashes, and therefore giving them more power.GabrielXL wrote...
You can't really think that the Chantry won't take advantage of this discovery. Either by hiding the discovery or turning the entire mountain into a pilgrimage site, the potential for exploitation is there. Judging by how they treat magi and/or anyone who defies them, why would anyone believe solely in their goodness? From an RPG perspective, my Human Noble doesn't completely buy into their rhetoric and supports magi whenever and wherever he can. It's mainly due to their vehement self-righteousness that he can't find the space to support them absolutely. In his mind, "The ends should not justify the means." A concept that is clearly lost on the Chantry.
I especially liked how the Revered Mother in Lothering went ballistic on me for bringing Sten into the Chantry. Here, I was hoping she'd show some charity and send us on our way in peace, with the hope that we'd find redemption by doing service to mankind. Instead, she cursed me and threw us out. I'd say she missed an opportunity to better herself in the Maker's eyes.
Edit. At the end of my last playthrough the epilogue stated that the ashes disappeared. Now, from an RP point of view, I like to think my mage went back to the temple and stole them, in order to hide them from the Chantry
Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:55 .
#64
Posté 07 décembre 2011 - 07:09
tklivory
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ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Edit. At the end of my last playthrough the epilogue stated that the ashes disappeared. Now, from an RP point of view, I like to think my mage went back to the temple and stole them, in order to hide them from the Chantry
*snicker* Good call! She needed it for *research*, right?
It would help develop all kinds of healing magic, right? Right??I've never actually killed Genitivi myself. I prefer to squash his dreams by preemptively sending him back to Denerim before going to the mountain, then never visiting him afterwards to let him know they were there. Or, lying to him and saying they weren't there. Why kill him when you can crush his entire life's works?
Or, I let the Dragon live and ensure she gets a steady diet of pilgrims. Either way.
Although Genitivi still has one of my favorite lines in the whole game, bar none: "After all, no one wants to hear: 'Willy toiled for many a year to perfect the curious mechanisms that would send a sharpened spike up the arse of the unwary intruder.'"
:lol:
#65
Posté 07 décembre 2011 - 07:52
ShimmeringDjinn
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I didn't think of sending him away lol. And that does sound fun. I may concider *ruining* his life in the playthrough I'm currently doingtklivory wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Edit. At the end of my last playthrough the epilogue stated that the ashes disappeared. Now, from an RP point of view, I like to think my mage went back to the temple and stole them, in order to hide them from the Chantry
*snicker* Good call! She needed it for *research*, right?
I've never actually killed Genitivi myself. I prefer to squash his dreams by preemptively sending him back to Denerim before going to the mountain, then never visiting him afterwards to let him know they were there. Or, lying to him and saying they weren't there. Why kill him when you can crush his entire life's works?
Or, I let the Dragon live and ensure she gets a steady diet of pilgrims. Either way.
Although Genitivi still has one of my favorite lines in the whole game, bar none: "After all, no one wants to hear: 'Willy toiled for many a year to perfect the curious mechanisms that would send a sharpened spike up the arse of the unwary intruder.'"
I nearly fell off my chair the first time I heard him say that......Priceless lol.
Edit. I think my mage gave the ashes Avernus
Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:57 .
#66
Posté 07 décembre 2011 - 08:01
tklivory
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ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Edit. I think my mage gave the ashes Avernus
Ooo, ooo, I like it!
Although I can just hear Sten now. "First you went all the way to the west to get the ashes of a dead woman, and now we're going all the back to the north to give the ashes to a nearly dead man. You did know the Archdemon is to the south, did you not?"But then I just whip out mah cookie stash to shut him up.
#67
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 12:30
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ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Agreed. That's why my mages have started murder knifing Brother Genitivi:devil: Can't have him running off back to Denerim and telling the Chantry about the ashes, and therefore giving them more power.GabrielXL wrote...
You can't really think that the Chantry won't take advantage of this discovery. Either by hiding the discovery or turning the entire mountain into a pilgrimage site, the potential for exploitation is there. Judging by how they treat magi and/or anyone who defies them, why would anyone believe solely in their goodness? From an RPG perspective, my Human Noble doesn't completely buy into their rhetoric and supports magi whenever and wherever he can. It's mainly due to their vehement self-righteousness that he can't find the space to support them absolutely. In his mind, "The ends should not justify the means." A concept that is clearly lost on the Chantry.
I especially liked how the Revered Mother in Lothering went ballistic on me for bringing Sten into the Chantry. Here, I was hoping she'd show some charity and send us on our way in peace, with the hope that we'd find redemption by doing service to mankind. Instead, she cursed me and threw us out. I'd say she missed an opportunity to better herself in the Maker's eyes.
Edit. At the end of my last playthrough the epilogue stated that the ashes disappeared. Now, from an RP point of view, I like to think my mage went back to the temple and stole them, in order to hide them from the Chantry
Nice call on that one. It would have been nice if we were allowed to collect artifacts.
Modifié par GabrielXL, 10 décembre 2011 - 12:30 .
#68
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 12:34
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tklivory wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Edit. At the end of my last playthrough the epilogue stated that the ashes disappeared. Now, from an RP point of view, I like to think my mage went back to the temple and stole them, in order to hide them from the Chantry
*snicker* Good call! She needed it for *research*, right?
I've never actually killed Genitivi myself. I prefer to squash his dreams by preemptively sending him back to Denerim before going to the mountain, then never visiting him afterwards to let him know they were there. Or, lying to him and saying they weren't there. Why kill him when you can crush his entire life's works?
Or, I let the Dragon live and ensure she gets a steady diet of pilgrims. Either way.
Although Genitivi still has one of my favorite lines in the whole game, bar none: "After all, no one wants to hear: 'Willy toiled for many a year to perfect the curious mechanisms that would send a sharpened spike up the arse of the unwary intruder.'"
I regret not sending him back to Denerim.
Still, I never take the time to visit him in Denerim either, so...
#69
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 10 décembre 2011 - 05:22
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I'm too much of a realist.
During most playthroughs it's hard for me to just send him back to Denerim, because he's just got that busy-body researcher personality. If I send Genitivi back to Denerim, I figure eventually he will head back to the Lost and Found Temple. If not to see for himself that the urn is really not there then to just study the architecture and carvings and crap. And if he can't go back, somebody will eventually read his writings and they will say, "Maybe that warden was lying. I'ma go check it out."
So he gets the murder-knife.
Sure, I could defile the ashes, but that's meta-gaming. By the time I get to Kolgrim it's clear that the cult are a buncha whackadoos. My Warden doesn't have any interest in hearing the guy out - it's straight to combat.
I CAN leave the dragon alone . . . but inevitably practicality wins out over role-playing in that case. The Superior Dragonbone Plate is my chosen armor for Sten.
During most playthroughs it's hard for me to just send him back to Denerim, because he's just got that busy-body researcher personality. If I send Genitivi back to Denerim, I figure eventually he will head back to the Lost and Found Temple. If not to see for himself that the urn is really not there then to just study the architecture and carvings and crap. And if he can't go back, somebody will eventually read his writings and they will say, "Maybe that warden was lying. I'ma go check it out."
So he gets the murder-knife.
Sure, I could defile the ashes, but that's meta-gaming. By the time I get to Kolgrim it's clear that the cult are a buncha whackadoos. My Warden doesn't have any interest in hearing the guy out - it's straight to combat.
I CAN leave the dragon alone . . . but inevitably practicality wins out over role-playing in that case. The Superior Dragonbone Plate is my chosen armor for Sten.
#70
Posté 11 décembre 2011 - 09:18
Jedimaster88
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Damn. After reading these posts, Im not sure what to do with genitivi anymore.
I´ve always let him return to denerim, and simply said that if things go bad, its his fault. I´ve always thought that the ashes could do much good. Sending him to to denerim before going to the temple is starting to sound like a good idea. Maybe I´ll try it next time. I dont want to give him the murder knife because I dont feel he deserved that.
I agree with you people about the chantry. I dont know if its wise to let them know about the ashes after everything I have experienced about them.
I always thought that the tests are a good way to protect the ashes, but now Im not sure of that either. And yes there is also the fact that there is only a limited amount of the ashes.
I feel a bit guilty, everytime I kill that dragon, because it isnt attacking me or anything unless I summon it, but I want that armor and all the other stuff it carries...and as Oghren says; "Think of the glory...". There is also the possibility of it attacking people afterwards, which I use as a reason to kill it. Okay maybe it sounds more of an excuse. Feel free to comment what do you think.
I´ve always let him return to denerim, and simply said that if things go bad, its his fault. I´ve always thought that the ashes could do much good. Sending him to to denerim before going to the temple is starting to sound like a good idea. Maybe I´ll try it next time. I dont want to give him the murder knife because I dont feel he deserved that.
I agree with you people about the chantry. I dont know if its wise to let them know about the ashes after everything I have experienced about them.
I always thought that the tests are a good way to protect the ashes, but now Im not sure of that either. And yes there is also the fact that there is only a limited amount of the ashes.
I feel a bit guilty, everytime I kill that dragon, because it isnt attacking me or anything unless I summon it, but I want that armor and all the other stuff it carries...and as Oghren says; "Think of the glory...". There is also the possibility of it attacking people afterwards, which I use as a reason to kill it. Okay maybe it sounds more of an excuse. Feel free to comment what do you think.
#71
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 02:16
DialupToaster
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Corrupt ashes --> kill cultists ---> Tell Genitivi you destroyed it ----> kill him.
Best ending for evil warden.
Best ending for evil warden.
#72
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 05:22
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Jedimaster88 wrote...
I dont want to give him the murder knife because I dont feel he deserved that.
Feel free to comment what do you think.
Clint will do it for me. Go to the 7 minute mark.
#73
Posté 12 décembre 2011 - 10:04
Penarddun
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tklivory wrote...
I've never actually killed Genitivi myself. I prefer to squash his dreams by preemptively sending him back to Denerim before going to the mountain, then never visiting him afterwards to let him know they were there. Or, lying to him and saying they weren't there. Why kill him when you can crush his entire life's works?
Or, I let the Dragon live and ensure she gets a steady diet of pilgrims. Either way.
I didn't know that was possible. I'll have to try that on my next playthrough. After my first PT, where I killed the dragon and spared Genitivi, I have always let the Dragon live. Because I thought that was the only way to save the ashes from the pilgrims and the chantry.
Also, killing the dragon started to seem unnecessary to all my future Wardens. True, I never get the Dragon Scale armor quest, but the dragon isn't a darkspawn, and without any of the cult members left alive, no harm? At least that's how I like to RP it. But I never thought about my Warden going back and sniping the Urn herself. What an inspired idea.
#74
Posté 13 décembre 2011 - 10:58
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Jedimaster88 wrote...
Damn. After reading these posts, Im not sure what to do with genitivi anymore.
I´ve always let him return to denerim, and simply said that if things go bad, its his fault. I´ve always thought that the ashes could do much good. Sending him to to denerim before going to the temple is starting to sound like a good idea. Maybe I´ll try it next time. I dont want to give him the murder knife because I dont feel he deserved that.
I agree with you people about the chantry. I dont know if its wise to let them know about the ashes after everything I have experienced about them.
I always thought that the tests are a good way to protect the ashes, but now Im not sure of that either. And yes there is also the fact that there is only a limited amount of the ashes.
I feel a bit guilty, everytime I kill that dragon, because it isnt attacking me or anything unless I summon it, but I want that armor and all the other stuff it carries...and as Oghren says; "Think of the glory...". There is also the possibility of it attacking people afterwards, which I use as a reason to kill it. Okay maybe it sounds more of an excuse. Feel free to comment what do you think.
I don't think it's an excuse to kill the dragon in order to prevent it from killing innocent people. In the context of the game, killing it is more of a trophy/achievement which kind of kills the thrill of doing so. This is probably why people feel guilty about it. You only learn the result of your action (or inaction) long after the fact which kind of sucks. Yet another hole in the Dragon Age storyline.
