586 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Sajuro wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Sajuro is just trolling, nothing to see here.

My point with the first one (retroactively at least) was that we still know jack about the reapers, we know so little we don't know that we don't know really. Saren was aware of the danger of indoctrination for awhile, at least before STG was deployed to Virmire. I was always under the impression that the first stages of intentional indoctrination was "I'm not going to get indoctrinated" as that ship's AI is making suggestions that sound more and more reasonable by the day. Saren didn't even know he had succumbed to the indoctrination until Shepard pointed it out. The second one was indeed for fun though.

If we know so little about the reapers then it should be obvious that destroying the collector base, a possible treasure trove of information, is a bad idea. We are going to war, we have few opportunities to learn about the reapers and what they're capable of before they start indoctrinating people and tearing the galaxy up.

Studying reaper technology is dangerous, that is obvious. What is more dangerous is the reapers themselves. Now you can either try to study the collector base and figure out a way to deal with the reapers and indoctrination before they arrive and use it on us, or you can just wing it.

Marxman2 wrote...

Destroy it, just remember what Legion said..."Technology is not a straight line, Accepting anothers tech, blinds you to alternatives." Probably wiser to go our own way with tech, i've certainly learn't my lesson after the first time. No offense to the Renegades intended however.

That is not good reasoning. Maybe if the reapers didn't exist, that would be a good way of thinking. But that reason is not suitable when considering that your civilization will most likely end if you don't accept another's technology.

Edit: I think that pad with information on what was apparently Harbinger should have only been included if you saved the base. It is fooling too many into thinking they got something significant despite destroying the base. Bottom line, that pad is evidence of nothing but that Shepard now knows what Harbinger looks like.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 10 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[DPSSOC]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Marxman2 wrote...
Destroy it, just remember what Legion said..."Technology is not a straight line, Accepting anothers tech, blinds you to alternatives." Probably wiser to go our own way with tech, i've certainly learn't my lesson after the first time. No offense to the Renegades intended however.

That is not good reasoning. Maybe if the reapers didn't exist, that would be a good way of thinking. But that reason is not suitable when considering that your civilization will most likely end if you don't accept another's technology.

I have to agree, going our own way would be ideal if we had time; we don't.  Our tech is already based heavily on what the Reapers left behind getting away from that would require us to essentially re-invent the wheel.  No matter what we come up with at this point it's going to be based on the exact same principles as what we have now so I'm dubious of the benefits.

Furthermore why do people assume the only reason to save the base is to use the tech we find there?  Is it inconceivable that we could simply study and find weaknesses/develope defenses for it?  In war if you come across enemy weapons/tech you are unfamilliar with you do not destroy them, ever.  You gather the up and study them so you can A) make your own if they're superior and  develope better ways to beat it.

[snakeboy86]

in every single ending i blew it up, TIM doesn't deserve to have it, guy is crazy

[Markinator_123]

snakeboy86 wrote...

in every single ending i blew it up, TIM doesn't deserve to have it, guy is crazy

And you are even more crazy for destroying it and now you have nothing to show for your efforts.

[Zeke01231]

Sure he does he has his crew back and the Collectors milkshake business is done.

[Pro_Consul]

Markinator_123 wrote...

snakeboy86 wrote...

in every single ending i blew it up, TIM doesn't deserve to have it, guy is crazy

And you are even more crazy for destroying it and now you have nothing to show for your efforts.

I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

[Markinator_123]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

snakeboy86 wrote...

in every single ending i blew it up, TIM doesn't deserve to have it, guy is crazy

And you are even more crazy for destroying it and now you have nothing to show for your efforts.

I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

Yet you don't have any idea on how to counter that indoctrination do you? Now, you are just going to hope for the best.  You didn't  accomplish anything by destroying that base because now are basically back where you started at the end of Mass Effect 1. Absolutely nowhere! If you saved them, have fun relying on a useless/racist council that could care less about humanity.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 11 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[Sentox6]

Pro_Consul wrote...
I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

Destroying a major enemy facility when said enemy has a massive technological advantage over you and there is a clear way to capture said facility isn't my idea of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way.

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Ryzaki]

Sentox6 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

Destroying a major enemy facility when said enemy has a massive technological advantage over you and there is a clear way to capture said facility isn't my idea of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way.

When said technological advantage includes mindraping people into serving it, clear way to capture said facility or not keeping it isn't my ida of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way. 

[Markinator_123]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sentox6 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

Destroying a major enemy facility when said enemy has a massive technological advantage over you and there is a clear way to capture said facility isn't my idea of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way.

When said technological advantage includes mindraping people into serving it, clear way to capture said facility or not keeping it isn't my ida of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way. 

You are going to have to confront that technology eventually where there are a whole bunch of Reapers on Earth. You better know how to counter it.

[jbblue05]

Ymladdych wrote...

The re-written Geth are another potential source of Reaper data/technology, aren't they?  So pure paragon playthroughs may not be totally SOL on that front.

Of course, that decision has some serious butt-biting potential in and of itself.

A big reason why some people destroy the base is because they know Bioware will them win without it.

People are playing Mass Effect like they are going to win no matter what they do and not playing Mass Efffect like its a fight for survival

[Ryzaki]

Markinator_123 wrote...
You are going to have to confront that technology eventually where there are a whole bunch of Reapers on Earth. You better know how to counter it.

Indeed. But I rather use the data EDI mined before I left to do that then leave that mindraping base sitting around with Derperus who don't understand basic safety protocol. 

Plus a few paranoid as hell Shep's might think the CB is a giant Xanthos gambit on the Reapers end. They know organics can't resist using their technology. It makes a decent backup in the case that they're ever in severe danger of being stopped. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 05:43 .

[Markinator_123]

Ryzaki wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sentox6 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
I have an un-indoctrinated mind. That is a victory when it comes to Reaper facilities. Just ask all the scientists on Dr. Chandana's team....oh wait, you can't! They all impaled themselves and became husks. My bad.

Seriously, though, destroying a major enemy facility is not my idea having "nothing to show for (my) efforts". I guess I'm just kinda funny that way.

Destroying a major enemy facility when said enemy has a massive technological advantage over you and there is a clear way to capture said facility isn't my idea of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way.

When said technological advantage includes mindraping people into serving it, clear way to capture said facility or not keeping it isn't my ida of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way. 

You are going to have to confront that technology eventually where there are a whole bunch of Reapers on Earth. You better know how to counter it.

Indeed. But I rather use the data EDI mined before I left to do that then leave that mindraping base sitting around with Derperus who don't understand basic safety protocol. 

What makes you think that EDI received anything all that useful beyond schematics? That base has a wealth of knowledge and yet you are going to blow it up and say that we have enough or that everything is good enough? No offense but Shepard died (at the beginning of ME2) being just good enough.

[Ryzaki]

Markinator_123 wrote...


What makes you think that EDI received anything all that useful beyond schematics? That base has a wealth of knowledge and yet you are going to blow it up and say that we have enough or that everything is good enough? No offense but Shepard died (at the beginning of ME2) being just good enough.

What wealth do we know that base has? 

Shepard died because the Collectors *blindsided* him. Not because he wasn't good enough. We blasted a chunk outof the CB using savlage tech from a downed Reaper. Even without upgrades you can destroy the CB (heck the only losses you suffer are because of people dying on the ship if you play your cards right). 

Schematics themselves (especially of a Reaper) can be  valuable. Meanwhile we have no guarantee you actually managed to fully kill the Baby Reaper (oh sure they say it'll stay dead but you have no guarantee of that). You have no guarantee it's not a trap. As for how do I know well I certainly doubt EDI wasn't doing anything. How else would TIM know where Shep could set the bomb. (Which in itself is another point in the Xanthos gambit in my Shep's mind. Who would design a spacestation to have one area that a timed radiation pulse would kill everything but leave the tech unharmed?). She was harvesting data the whole time. 

It's just as much of a risk keeping the base as it is destroying it. I don't see why people have to insist that their side is the only justifible one. 

Edit: That said I said a while ago I wouldn't get into these debates. I shouldn't have said anything. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 05:55 .

[CitizenThom]

I played mostly paragon on my first playthrough... but kept the ship. There seems to be a mix in the paragon/renegade scale... sometimes seeing big picture is good, sometimes it's naughty. I also let Mordin take the reasearch, and let Legion reformat the Heretics. From the point of view of trying to do the altruistic thing, it seems preservation of knowledge is an altruistic pursuit. From a more micro and self-interest point of view, I can see destroying the collector ship because it might be a future threat to me (ala Jack's usual point of view). To me that seems more renegade, eventhough it's the choice I'll probably make on my future playthroughs.

[chapa3]

How do we know that the base is completely unsalvageable? The only thing that can be fairly guarranteed to be destroyed was the Reaper birthing chamber. There has to be salvageable tech after the explosion. Question is, how much?

[Pro_Consul]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Yet you don't have any idea on how to counter that indoctrination do you?

Yep. I gotta checklist:

1. Don't hang out inside things that can indoctrinate me, like Reapers and Reaper facilities. Check.
2. Blow up anything that likely possesses the ability to indoctrinate me. Check.
3. Lock up and/or kill anyone I meet who shows signs of having been indoctrinated. Check.

If I stick to my checklist I should be quite adequately protected from indoctrination. Anyway, how are your scientists supposed to study the indoctrination technology if they have all been fully indoctrinated practically before they begin?

Markinator_123 wrote...

Now, you are just going to hope for the best.  You didn't  accomplish anything by destroying that base because now are basically back where you started at the end of Mass Effect 1.

Really? I think that destroying a human-based Reaper before it could reach completion counts as accomplishing something. So does blowing up a facility capable of making new Reapers.

Seriously, I talked about this in another almost identical thread a month or three ago. There is no way the risks outweigh the rewards, but the rewards appear to be so large that many people are willing to overlook the risks or lie to themselves about them in order to justify going for the giant golden ring. But equally seriously, nobody comes out a winner by hanging around inside a Reaper facility long enough to actually study the thing. Every single instance we have seen of this in ME1 and ME2 has resulted in the entire research team turning themselves into husks. And those were facilities that were thousands or even millions of years out of use. The Collector base is an active facility, presumably with all of its Reaper booby trap technologies in fresh repair. This isn't really a matter of risk, but is rather a virtual guarantee  that this whole place is a giant trap ready to devour the minds of everyone who hangs around any length of time. It could contain every most valuable secret of technology in existence, yet it would still be worse than useless to us because of this one fact: nobody can stay there long enough to learn any of these secrets before becoming a mind-slave of the Reapers.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 11 février 2011 - 05:57 .

[Ryzaki]

chapa3 wrote...

How do we know that the base is completely unsalvageable? The only thing that can be fairly guarranteed to be destroyed was the Reaper birthing chamber. There has to be salvageable tech after the explosion. Question is, how much?

Apparently according to the comics (I'm not 100% on this) it was enough for TIM to try to make a super soldier of some kind that backfired astronomically. 

[Pro_Consul]

Sentox6 wrote...

Destroying a major enemy facility when said enemy has a massive technological advantage over you and there is a clear way to capture said facility isn't my idea of the smartest course of action. I'm just kinda funny that way.

But do you have a clear way to capture that facility? Or does IT  have a clear way to capture YOU?

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:41 .

[Ryzaki]

I am so sick of people saying that blowing up the base means your playing it like your going to win regardless.



There are pragmatic and sensible and indeed survalistic! reasons for blowing it up.

[chapa3]

Ryzaki wrote...


Apparently according to the comics (I'm not 100% on this) it was enough for TIM to try to make a super soldier of some kind that backfired astronomically. 

If that is true, then that is at least enough tech to mount a defense without actually adding to the reaper population.

[Ryzaki]

chapa3 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Apparently according to the comics (I'm not 100% on this) it was enough for TIM to try to make a super soldier of some kind that backfired astronomically. 

If that is true, then that is at least enough tech to mount a defense without actually adding to the reaper population.

I think said backfiring (I'm not totally sure on this so if anyone knows better feel free to correct me!) was due to indoctrination. 

[White_Buffalo94]

I keep it because survival against the Reapers is all that matters. The tech in that base is thus a tool for survival.