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[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And what exactly lead to the attack from the turians? 

Grayson leaked information on Cerberus to Kahlee who went to Anderson. They knew if they went to the Alliance that it might tip off Cerberus, so they went to turians and Anderson authorized the attacks at the expense of his job.

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And what exactly lead to the attack from the turians? 

Grayson leaked information on Cerberus to Kahlee who went to Anderson. They knew if they went to the Alliance that it might tip off Cerberus, so they went to turians and Anderson authorized the attacks at the expense of his job.

Interesting. How many moles does Cerberus have in the alliance? (Well not how many exactly but they do they control a good portion of the alliance?). 

Also was this the turian military or the turian gang? 

[James2912]

Pro_Consul wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Nope I'm talking about controlling mechs like NASA controls robots via remote controller. It well within our current technology let alone the ME time period.

Admirably cautious approach to researching this base. It will greatly extend the time required to accomplish anything, but it has the potential to be doable. And when has Cerberus ever shown evidence that "admirably cautious" was a phrase they even understood, let alone knew how to apply?

Hey you asked for what I would do. Although I, unlike TIM apparently have head the story of the tortoise and the hare. Its up to Bioware if they want to give him the idiot ball plot device or not. And although it would be slower in the long run it is more productive than blowing the base up. 

However I can understand pro consul why you would be hesitant to trust cerberus with the base, because Bioware loves to take the easy way out and make characters idiots rather than coming up with realistic scenarios. Its called lazy writing. I facepalm more than anyone when they screw up because I could do their jobs so much better and I am an effing college student.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And what exactly lead to the attack from the turians? 

I just wanted to say...YOUR ICON! <333  It is so fabulous! Persona 3!

*ahem* On topic statement..err...My main Shep Genivieve and my other main Shep Ellery both destroyed the base.  For Geni, Legion's talk about making your own destiny prompted her and plus she is a bit impulsive and prone to act on emotions.  Ellery is a bit more clinical and was very temptedt to keep it, but couldn't trust the Illusive Man to treat it properly.  Heh.

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And what exactly lead to the attack from the turians? 

Grayson leaked information on Cerberus to Kahlee who went to Anderson. They knew if they went to the Alliance that it might tip off Cerberus, so they went to turians and Anderson authorized the attacks at the expense of his job.

Interesting. How many moles does Cerberus have in the alliance? (Well not how many exactly but they do they control a good portion of the alliance?). 

Also was this the turian military or the turian gang? 

This was a turian military operation. They hit several Cerberus facilities at the same time. I don't know how many moles they have in all, but many moles were also identified by the data from Grayson and dealt with.

Pro_Consul wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

A quote from TIM: "If you see anything unusual or unexpected—if you have any doubt or uncertainty at all—exterminate him immediately. I’d rather see the entire project fail than risk having this thing we’ve created break free. Do I make myself clear?"

And an attack by Turians wasn't "unusual or unexpected"? Was his escape the result of rank incompetence, disobedience, or were the Turians just so stealthy and coordinated that they had made it impossible to execute him before any alarm was even raised? Not being snarky here, dude; I'm truly interested in more details now.

Can't remember the details, I would suggest simply reading the book. Though I can say it certainly wasn't expected, and the turians were very well coordinated. In my opinion the escape was due to the turians being very good at what they were doing. Though I have to say I thought the turians were stupid for not quarantining Grayson. They let him on their shuttle where he proceeded to kill them all and take control of it.

[Ryzaki]

If everyone in ME used their brain all the time BW wouldn't be able to pull off half their dramatic plot twists and the keeping the CB wouldn't be a issue because nearly everyone would keep it because if worst comes to worse you can blow the thing up. Alas with Derperus in game that's not happening. 

And Shep would've gotten some backup from the damn Council. <_< 

Though in that case Shep wouldn't be alive in the first place because the Collectors would've processed him. So I guess it's not all bad. 

This was a turian military operation. They hit several Cerberus facilities at the same time. I don't know how many moles they have in all, but many moles were also identified by the data from Grayson and dealt with.

Ah nice. 

Also you just said Garyson killed a bunch of turians and took control of their ship. Was I wrong about my guess about him becoming stronger than the average human? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 08:21 .

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah nice. 

Also you just said Garyson killed a bunch of turians and took control of their ship. Was I wrong about my guess about him becoming stronger than the average human? 

He certainly became stronger than the average human, especially with biotics:

The first group to get in his way had been easily dispatched with a biotic singularity. With a mere flick of his wrist, the Reapers had caused a single point of near-infinite mass to be created right in the center of the four asari lying in wait for him around a corner. The gravitational field swallowed them up instantly, collapsing them into nothingness before they could summon their own biotic powers to strike back.

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah nice. 

Also you just said Garyson killed a bunch of turians and took control of their ship. Was I wrong about my guess about him becoming stronger than the average human? 

He certainly became stronger than the average human, especially with biotics:

The first group to get in his way had been easily dispatched with a biotic singularity. With a mere flick of his wrist, the Reapers had caused a single point of near-infinite mass to be created right in the center of the four asari lying in wait for him around a corner. The gravitational field swallowed them up instantly, collapsing them into nothingness before they could summon their own biotic powers to strike back.

And how exactly was TIM planning on killing him? 

And how was he killed. The wiki says it but it's not really clear. 

I get the shotgun blast 2 bullets. But was this after a while of fighting or immediate? 

Though yikes. Poor Asari. 

...I really want Shepard to get hacked by Harbinger now. Fight off the indoctrination and then have crazy biotic abilities.  

Though the potential of using Reaper implants to strengthen soldiers seems sound...provided you can remove the indoctrination effect. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 08:36 .

[Ieldra]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Is there any reasonable chance that valuable technology can be retreived from the base?
Will Cerberus use that technology against the Reapers?
Would that technology help in any meaningful way against the Reapers?

Now in gameplay terms, we all know that we can defeat the Reapers without it. We know that keeping the base will mean a stronger Cerberus at the end of the game. If you're a renegade, fighting for a strong, self-sufficient humanity then that's good. If you're an "internationalist" then that's bad.

However, if you're roleplaying, then I think you have to ask yourself the top 3 questions.If you answered yes to all 3 of those questions, you should keep the base. If you answer no (even if its just roleplaying your Shepard) then blowing it up is the obvious choice, because we all know that there will be consquences to keeping it.

Now, roleplaying my paragade Shepard, I have to answer yes. The  Reapers are the largest and most immediate threat. The aftermath is secondary.

QFT.

It all comes down to this. Everything else is distraction, baseless speculation and most of all, rationalization of decisions you feel should be justified, rather than are.

The only additional question I would raise is "Will Cerberus send a competent science team who knows the meaning of 'safety protocol' or an incompetent one?" A lost science team might be an acceptable risk in the face of extincion, but an indoctrinated one isn't just lost. It'll be working for the enemy. ME3 will tell us I'm sure. Cerberus incompetence in ME1 and ME2 already borders the ridiculous. I'd really like to see some competence for a chance. After all, there must be a reason why Cerberus is so influential and has access to so much money.

Even that might not be enough to justify destroying the base. Based on the risk calculation I've posted in one of the earlier threads, the question I'd ask is this: "Is the chance we'll find anything of help against the Reapers in the base higher than the chance that keeping it will help the Reapers against us?"

Given that the Reapers already have the higher level of technology, I'll answer that question with "yes".

Against those who say "This facility can only be put to use making Reapers by sacrificing humans" I answer that it's knowledge we seek if we keep the base. The base was made to create Reapers, thus: knowledge about the makeup and structure of a Reaper must be hidden somewhere in it. That's what we're after, and the technological principles the devices in the base work by. Maybe some new materials, too.

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And how exactly was TIM planning on killing him? 

And how was he killed. The wiki says it but it's not really clear. 

I get the shotgun blast 2 bullets. But was this after a while of fighting or immediate? 

Though the potential of using Reaper implants to strengthen soldiers seems sound...provided you can remove the indoctrination effect. 

TIM was going to use Kai Leng, a Cerberus operative who is a former N7. But as I said previously, the turian attack on the Cerberus facility was very well executed. Kai Leng had to choose to kill Grayson or save TIM, and he choose to save TIM. By the time Grayson died at the end of the story, his abilities had developed further than they had at the beginning around the time of the attack on the Cerberus facility.

Also, TIM's thoughts at the end of Grayson's escape:

After a few minutes he had recovered enough to speak.

“You eliminated Grayson, I assume,” he said.

Kai Leng shook his head. “There wasn’t time. It was kill him or save you. I chose you.”

The Illusive Man almost replied, “You made the wrong choice.” Instead, he bit his tongue as he realized he could just as easily have asked Kai Leng the same question back on the station, while there was still a chance to do something about it.

The encounter with the turians had rattled him. He had thought he was going to die. Faced with a glimpse of his own mortality, he had decided not to ask Kai Leng about Grayson because he didn’t want to know the answer. Not if it could cost him his life. He was a patriot, but deep down he wasn’t ready to be a martyr.

He also had to accept the fact that this was all his own fault. There had been no need for him to come to the facility to oversee the experiments in person. He could have stayed on his secure station and received regular updates. But he’d wanted to watch Grayson suffer. He’d let his desire for vengeance override his common sense, and it had almost gotten him killed.

The truth wasn’t pleasant, but the Illusive Man had made a career out of facing unpleasant truths. He wouldn’t make the same mistake again. And he wasn’t about to chastise one of his best agents for doing something he had tacitly approved of.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 11 février 2011 - 08:37 .

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

Its up to Bioware if they want to give him the idiot ball plot device or not. And although it would be slower in the long run it is more productive than blowing the base up.

Well, I must admit that I have rarely found their use of the idiot ball to be unrealistic, so I have learned to deal with it. People blinding themselves to the risks whenever the rewards appear to be sufficiently shiny = common human behavior. People taking catastrophic shortcuts in pursuit of short term rewards = common human behavior. People having an idiot ball congenitally fixed inside their skulls = common human trait. You get the idea.

James2912 wrote...

However I can understand pro consul why you would be hesitant to trust cerberus with the base, because Bioware loves to take the easy way out and make characters idiots rather than coming up with realistic scenarios. Its called lazy writing. I facepalm more than anyone when they screw up because I could do their jobs so much better and I am an effing college student.

Yeah, I would never trust Cerberus with it because I have yet to see a single Cerberus project that didn't blow up in their faces, my own resurrection included.

As for facepalming because you know that you could do better even though you are not of that profession and are still in college, I have a different perspective there, too. I am old enough now and have seen so much mediocrity from my fellow humans that I have given up being disappointed when they fall short. Instead I am pleasantly surprised when they do well, or when their efforts succeed despite themselves. I call it Happiness by Pessimism - by always expecting the worst I get to be pleasantly surprised quite frequently.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 11 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[Arijharn]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Uhh.. dude. I ask the question again: do you have a plan for studying all that technological awesomeness without all your scientists being indoctrinated? When has anyone we ever heard of been able to study a Reaper facility and NOT ended up as a husk? And how many husks have we blown away personally who USED TO BE scientists?

Here's my plans for what it's worth:
1) Correlate the psychological records of the members who worked with the Derelict Reaper to find out similarities and work from there.
2) Where possible, remove Reaper type devices from the remains of the actual Reaper to minimize 'cross contamination.'
3) Store objects in radiological and shielded devices.
4) Perform scientific studies in scientific conditions (i.e., not actually on the ship in general, where possible, perform experiments on another ship, even if it's parked right outside the Collector Base).
5) When performing tests on Reaper components, perform them in vacuum conditions. So far; Indoctrination has only been observed when it's in atmospheric conditions, therefore, remove avenues of where infrasonic frequences can propagate, and have scientists perform their experiments while wearing HAZMAT type suits, particularly to confound electromagnetic signals etc.
6) Have enforced periodic psychological testing of personnel who have close proximity with all Reaper artifacts.
7) Don't 'bypass standard safeties.'
8) Use armed escorts while exploring the Collector Base, time limits for how long they're allowed 'there' and with regular radio check-in times. I personally think though other than stuff like deadfall drops, the actual Collector Base wouldn't be overly dangerous (and certainly wouldn't have risk of Indoctrination in and of themselves) but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be cautious. There could be non organic sentienel devices or something there after all.

If anyone does get Indoctrinated though; then it's actually a bit of a boon really, since any and all information about Indoctrination needs to be studied asap in order to formulate adequate responses for in the field. It would be potentially pretty galling for Shephard if he runs into some refugee's fleeing from Reaper operations, including some children, only to discover that one of them (or more) are Indoctrinated. At the moment, the only option is to discard them (which is probably as bad as just executing them). 

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And how exactly was TIM planning on killing him? 

And how was he killed. The wiki says it but it's not really clear. 

I get the shotgun blast 2 bullets. But was this after a while of fighting or immediate? 

Though the potential of using Reaper implants to strengthen soldiers seems sound...provided you can remove the indoctrination effect. 

TIM was going to use Kai Leng, a Cerberus operative who is a former N7. But as I said previously, the turian attack on the Cerberus facility was very well executed. Kai Leng had to choose to kill Grayson or save TIM, and he choose to save TIM. By the time Grayson died at the end of the story, his abilities had developed further than they had at the beginning around the time of the attack on the Cerberus facility.

Also, TIM's thoughts at the end of Grayson's escape:

After a few minutes he had recovered enough to speak.
“You eliminated Grayson, I assume,” he said.
Kai Leng shook his head. “There wasn’t time. It was kill him or save you. I chose you.”
The Illusive Man almost replied, “You made the wrong choice.” Instead, he bit his tongue as he realized he could just as easily have asked Kai Leng the same question back on the station, while there was still a chance to do something about it.
The encounter with the turians had rattled him. He had thought he was going to die. Faced with a glimpse of his own mortality, he had decided not to ask Kai Leng about Grayson because he didn’t want to know the answer. Not if it could cost him his life. He was a patriot, but deep down he wasn’t ready to be a martyr.
He also had to accept the fact that this was all his own fault. There had been no need for him to come to the facility to oversee the experiments in person. He could have stayed on his secure station and received regular updates. But he’d wanted to watch Grayson suffer. He’d let his desire for vengeance override his common sense, and it had almost gotten him killed.
The truth wasn’t pleasant, but the Illusive Man had made a career out of facing unpleasant truths. He wouldn’t make the same mistake again. And he wasn’t about to chastise one of his best agents for doing something he had tacitly approved of.

And so his backup plan was ruined by him being in the base and being petty. Fabulous. 

I see how the whole thing unfolded but due to TIM's life being what stopped Grayson from being stopped I can't alleviate them fully of guilt attack by Turians or no. TIM knew Grayson had betrayed them in the first place. He shouldn't have been anywhere near the man. 

[Pro_Consul]

Arijharn wrote...

Here's my plans for what it's worth: *snip*

Again, admirably cautious, and possibly even effective, albeit very slow.

But as Shep how likely is it you will be able to compel TIM to take such precautions? After all, we have to remember that the situation is not Shep deciding whether to destroy the base or keep it himself, but whether to destroy it or give it to Cerberus. How likely is it that Cerberus will accept such draconian safety measures and their inevitable slowing of results and not resort to shortcuts which cause the whole thing to blow up in everyone's faces. Ah well, still I can see where you are coming from anyway. If I was on your team when your Shep made this choice I would prolly understand enough to accept your orders.  But like Mordin and others I would be grumbling about it after the fact....

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

And so his backup plan was ruined by him being in the base and being petty. Fabulous. 

I see how the whole thing unfolded but due to TIM's life being what stopped Grayson from being stopped I can't alleviate them fully of guilt attack by Turians or no. TIM knew Grayson had betrayed them in the first place. He shouldn't have been anywhere near the man. 

Of course TIM shares part of the guilt for making himself as much a security concern as Grayson, at least to Kai Leng. He isn't going to be making that mistake again.

TIM visited Grayson personally before the experiment began when Grayson was in no position to do anything against him. TIM was feeling vengeful and wanted to speak to Grayson personally.

Either way, I'm still pleased that at least someone is trying to figure out how to fight the reapers intead of winging it like paragon Shepard. Also, in the end, the data from the experiment fell into the hands of Aria. TIM paid her 3 million credits to get copies of the data. He didn't care if she kept the originals, so I'm sure he is hoping that data convinces her that the reapers are a threat in some way. And finally, Grayson's body is now in the hands of Anderson, who is going to have some people he trusts examine it. Quote from Anderson:

"This isn’t the same as what Cerberus was doing," he insisted. "I don’t condone what they did to him in any way. But they were right about one thing: the Reapers are coming, and we have to find a way to fight them."

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 11 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And so his backup plan was ruined by him being in the base and being petty. Fabulous. 

I see how the whole thing unfolded but due to TIM's life being what stopped Grayson from being stopped I can't alleviate them fully of guilt attack by Turians or no. TIM knew Grayson had betrayed them in the first place. He shouldn't have been anywhere near the man. 

Of course TIM shares part of the guilt for making himself as much a security concern as Grayson, at least to Kai Leng. He isn't going to be making that mistake again.

TIM visited Grayson personally before the experiment began when Grayson was in no position to do anything against him. TIM was feeling vengeful and wanted to speak to Grayson personally.

Either way, I'm still pleased that at least someone is trying to figure out how to fight the reapers intead of winging it like paragon Shepard. Also, in the end, the data from the experiment fell into the hands of Aria. TIM paid her 3 million credits to get copies of the data. He didn't care if she kept the originals, so I'm sure he is hoping that data convinces her that the reapers are a threat in some way. And finally, Grayson's body is now in the hands of Anderson, who is going to have some people he trusts examine it. Quote from Anderson:

“This isn’t the same as what Cerberus was doing,” he insisted. “I don’t condone what they did to him in any way. But they were right about one thing: the Reapers are coming, and we have to find a way to fight them.

True but I think a paragon Shep says it nicely "I won't let fear compromise who I am." being afraid of the Reapers isn't going to lead to victory (neither is baseless confidence). 

That said thanks for correcting me and indulging me in my questions. Could I give you an internet hug? 

That said I would have no problem keeping the base if I could give the means to get their to the galatic governments as a whole instead (yes they'd tie each other up in red tape but I have a feeling that red tape would keep incidents like Grayson from happening) of just one group with a really bad track record with Reaper tech. 

As for the data. I wonder if Shep could convince her to give him a copy. Shep is supposedly a smooth talker and if all else fails there's the "if you don't give it to me and we all die than it's your fault." card. 

But roleplaying wise my Shep's are too paranoid to keep the base. Everyother Reaper tech has shown itself to be boobytrapped. 

And nonroleplaying wise let's be honest. The base isn't going to help us defeat the reapers. It's going to be some deus ex machina BW pulls out their asses. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 09:03 .

[Tennessee88]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

The Reapers obviously know you have the base already via Harbringer.

Exactly my point. And their track record suggest that they LOVE building in all sorts of booby traps to prevent "lesser" races from reverse-engineering their tech or using it against them. Indoctrination built into nearly everything; ship-disabling virus AND auto-distress beacon built into Reaper IFF; counter intrusion systems built to take over any computer which tries to network with theirs (thankfully EDI was able to handle this one without getting data-squished). There is every reason to think that this base will NOT yield any desirable results, and no reason to think it can be defended against recapture by the enemy, particularly since it will likely be actively helping the enemy when they arrive to do the recapturing. And it may even be able to recapture itself by simply indoctrinating everyone inside or in close proximity. Again, the risk/reward factor is hopelessly skewed in the wrong direction. In keeping the base intact it is far more likely that Shep will end up ceding new advantages to the Reapers (and lose a lot of people in the process) than that he will ever extract any advantages for his own side.

Tennessee88 wrote...

Risking scientist for a slimmer of hope is going to be one of the easier choices to make in this war. Why should TIM care about the well being of a few if it is to save the many?

Why should Shep care about the chance of gaining some tech, particularly when it is so vanishingly small, when there is a much bigger chance that the enemy will retake the facility before any such tech can be retrieved? It is simple choice: destroy the base now while you have the chance, or try to defend it with hopelessly inadequate forces and likely see it recaptured by the enemy before you can get anything useful from it.

I guess I am basically just going to restate the parts you didn't quote but anyways. Defending the base is a non-issue, as when the Reapers show up its to late anyways. The second they show up nuke it. Also, why do the Reapers need it? I highly doubt that the base is the only way to produce a Reaper. Also what possible advantages does that base offer that the Reapers do not already possess. If the base was so valuable, they certainly would have taken greater measures to ensure its ability to defend itself. After all, it was taken out by a single frigate and a small team.  

Or you could look at it like this. It could be argued that the human Reaper was the single most valuable thing in the galaxy for the Reapers. Ensuring its survival was obviously important, so they took whatever measures they saw as necessary to secure the base. Which means they never actually anticipated that the base could be taken. Regardless, there really is no reason to defend the base or waste defensive resources on it. The only two factions that can reach it are Cerberus and the Reapers. 

Also you are making some rather large assumptions regarding the ability to retrieve tech. Its clearly stated that Collector tech is incredibly advanced and valuable. The Thanix Cannon was easily reversed engineered from Sovereign's weaponry, and EDI herself herself is partially based on Reaper tech. Both of those made a rather large difference in your mission. Heck, just by stepping foot on that base you learned how Reapers are made. Now we have the ability to study the process of Reaper creation, surely that is worth something. Lets see you also gained access to Harbringer's schematics, you have access to communication systems which are far beyond anything ever seen, advanced weaponry, the ability to try and understand what goes into consideration when species are altered, collector production facilities, detection equipment which renders the SR2 stealth systems useless (understanding that alone could be huge), etc. And these are just the obvious things you could gain from the base rather easily. 

As for indoctrination, yes it is possible. But the IFF, while a trap, has shown no hint of indoctrination. It also makes sense for the Reaper IFF to immediately be responded to by Harbringer and the collectors because it isn't supposed to be in the galaxy. No physical traps existed, if they did they would have been used to protect the Reaper larva. If EDI could handle the virus there is no reason to believe that a similar AI could not be used to the same effect on the base. 

This leaves the obvious problem of how to handle the possibility of indoctrination. Its rather simple, no one can return through the Omega 4 relay once they have worked on the base. Should indoctrination occur and the Reapers decide its better to take the base back then there are simple ways of dealing with that which do no require a noticeable amount of resources. Hell rig the thing with gas which requires remote detonation of someone who has never been on board. But considering that indoctrination seems to require an actual Reaper to be present I am not to worried. If it does happen then you lost a small of amount of scientist and logistical crew. 

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

True but I think a paragon Shep says it nicely "I won't let fear compromise who I am." being afraid of the Reapers isn't going to lead to victory (neither is baseless confidence). 

Exactly. I consider destroying the base to be the option of those who fear what reaper technology could do to the people who try to research it.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of simply discarding the base because of the danger.

That said thanks for correcting me and indulging me in my questions. Could I give you an internet hug? 

I prefer Internet cookies myself. =P

That said I would have no problem keeping the base if I could give the means to get their to the galatic governments as a whole instead (yes they'd tie each other up in red tape but I have a feeling that red tape would keep incidents like Grayson from happening) of just one group with a really bad track record with Reaper tech. 

I would be very hesitant to handle the base over to the Alliance or Council considering how they have had their head buried in the sand for the past 2 years. The reapers are on the way, we really can't afford to have our efforts to figure out how to fight them be bogged down by red tape. Also, Grayson never would have happened with the Council because they would never have tried it. The thing about them is that I'm not confident that the Council would get their hands dirty and do something like what Cerberus did with Grayson if it was necessary. We can't afford to half-ass it.

Anyhow overall, Cerberus may not have a perfect track record, but they have at least something to show for their efforts, like EDI. The Council hasn't done ****.

But roleplaying wise my Shep's are too paranoid to keep the base. Everyother Reaper tech has shown itself to be boobytrapped. 

You should keep in mind that EDI and the Thanix Canon were produced by studying reaper tech. One by Cerberus and the other by the turians.

You're going to have to face reaper tech head on either way when they arrive in the galaxy. Do you really want to wait to study it until they're using it to kill millions like on Earth?

And nonroleplaying wise let's be honest. The base isn't going to help us defeat the reapers. It's going to be some deus ex machina BW pulls out their asses. <_<

I'm hoping the ending will be variable depending on your choices over all 3 games. I expect the base to contribute significantly to the defeat of the reapers and the state of the galaxy afterwards.

[Tennessee88]

"Based on what? Every single Reaper-tech facility or ruin that we have heard of to date had indoctrination tech built into it. Why would this one be different? "



I am curious as to when indoctrination has happened outside of direct contact with a Reaper. The artifacts found by the miners and on the abandoned ship only created led to Madness which somehow led to husks. Not to mention they were N7 missions, which I hate to say, seem a little inconsistent at times.

Modifié par Tennessee88, 11 février 2011 - 09:26 .

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Exactly. I consider destroying the base to be the option of those who fear what reaper technology could do to the people who try to research it.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of simply discarding the base because of the danger.

Which confuses me seeing as that's one of the better reasons. 

I prefer Internet cookies myself. =P

Here's a cookie. *gives vitual cookie* 

 

I would be very hesitant to handle the base over to the Alliance or Council considering how they have had their head buried in the sand for the past 2 years. The reapers are on the way, we really can't afford to have our efforts to figure out how to fight them be bogged down by red tape. Also, Grayson never would have happened with the Council because they would never have tried it. The thing about them is that I'm not confident that the Council would get their hands dirty and do something like what Cerberus did with Grayson if it was necessary. We can't afford to half-ass it.

Anyhow overall, Cerberus may not have a perfect track record, but they have at least something to show for their efforts, like EDI. The Council hasn't done ****.

 

I really hope they haven't. Because that would just be a handling of the idiot ball that I can't stand. I wouldn't mind them not wanting Shep to know what they're doing but at the least have them doing something. 

Did Grayson give an viable results though on how to counter indoctrination? 

.

You should keep in mind that EDI and the Thanix Canon were produced by studying reaper tech. One by Cerberus and the other by the turians.

You're going to have to face reaper tech head on either way when they arrive in the galaxy. Do you really want to wait to study it until they're using it to kill millions like on Earth?

They were developed from salvaged reaper tech from things already blow up. It's fully intact Reaper tech that makes my Shep pause. Intact reaper tech gives the urge to simply point and shoot.Maybe boost the power a little. Building it from scratch involves learning how it shoots and fiddling around with it so that it shoots more comfortably to you. 

I'm hoping the ending will be variable depending on your choices over all 3 games. I expect the base to contribute significantly to the defeat of the reapers and the state of the galaxy afterwards.

I don't for the simple reason that BW will have to deal with people complaining about earlier choices leading to railroading in the third game. Then of course is the whole wanting each part to stand on its own bit.

That said I wouldn't mind the base contributing (I also would hope that saving the Rachni/Geth would contribute as well) however due to BW's desire to continue the worl of ME (supposedly) I don't see widely different end world states. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 09:30 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

aeetos21 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Fact is that we don't have much on the Reapers.... we didn't have much on the collectors either (which is why SHEPARD AND HIS SHIP WAS DESTROYED BY THEM).  To not even try to learn from that mistake (by atleast trying to prepare) is what raises the eyebrows.


Another way to look at it is.... You're willing to team up with Cerberus to stop the Collectors from taking just humans... but NOT willing to team up with them to stop the Reapers from taking EVERYBODY IN THE UNIVERSE?  Really?

I remember using a certain reaper IFF that didn't work out so well for the SR2's crew. I also remember hacking a certain collector ship that nearly got my team killed.

Presuming you know what is best about an unknown alien tech (even when in your post you hypocritically say "fact is we don't know much about the reapers") and assuming its a win-win all around is foolish. Especially given the history the reapers have with allowing the civilizations of the galaxy to advance on the technology they left behind - though granted it seems highly unlikely they wanted us to find and locate the collector base.

Now if I could've handed the base over to someone a little more trustworthy than the Illusive Man then yes, I would've done it. I recall a lot of the tech that went into the SR2 was from alien sources, the Thanix cannon for example was based on reaper tech and was an all around win-win. Handing the base over to the same guys who developed the cannon for our purposes, who have proven that they are responsible enough to handle this sort of technology and willing to share it for the greater galactic good, would've been preferrable. As that wasn't an option though I wasn't about to hand unknown alien weaponry over to an organization I didn't trust, I'd rather see it destroyed first.

Make no mistake, despite their past actions I came in ME2 open minded and willing to give Cerberus and TIM a chance. In the end though, I found that I didn't trust him anymore than I trust the collectors. It's that simple. Also I fail to see how you believe that choosing to destroy the base and still being able to win is meta-gaming ESPECIALLY when we know next to nothing about ME3.

During the leadup to ME2 there were countless threads like this one that were proven one hundred percent wrong, don't make the mistake of presuming you know what is going to happen or what will end up being the most advantegous decision(s).

Edit: On another note, nor do I believe any single race is ready for that power and in the renegade ending of ME2 TIM made no illusions that he planned on using the base for human dominance over both the reapers and the rest of the galaxy. Trading one race that has been corrupted by power for another that could easily become just as corrupted makes little sense to me. This is something a lot of the people on the forums agree with and something a lot of others don't, and I believe that that is what the real issue is here.

You also remember that the Reaper IFF was the key to getting through the Omega 4 Relay (without which doomed the entire suicide mission).  And actually, that did work out well (you needed it), just not well for the crew initially investigating it... but better seeing their traps now than during the chaos of battle/during a full-scale invasion.

You're up against a dangerous foe, of course it's going to be dangerous.  And us not knowing about how to stop the Reapers IS NOT hypothetical.  It is a 100% fact.


So it still all boils down to how much of a threat you see the Reapers being (Just like ME1's ending choice).  If you don't see them as a big threat, then idealism will stand.  If you see the Reapers as a huge threat, then you'll take steps to defeat them (even if that means joining forces with shady people... which was the entire focus of ME2).

Like we've played,[b] Shepard already worked with Cerberus to stop a much smaller threat... succeeding in your mission with them and thanks to them, you survived multiple times (no matter how you feel about TIM).  Why all the sudden stopping the real problem makes Cerberus a no-go can only come from a fear of Cerberus/TIM over the Reapers... especially if you don't see the Base as being anything of value... then you just did it to give yourself more trouble.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 février 2011 - 09:46 .

[Inverness Moon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which confuses me seeing as that's one of the better reasons. 

Simply put, the reapers are a great enough danger that we can't afford to destroy the base and hope we'll find another way to deal with them.

I really hope they haven't. Because that would just be a handling of the idiot ball that I can't stand. I wouldn't mind them not wanting Shep to know what they're doing but at the least have them doing [i]something. 

I just don't have confidence in the Council. They did not trust Shepard when it came down to it and either didn't help him or actively hampered him.

Hell, I'm half-expecting ME3 to start with Shepard being on trial for having an AI running his ship, working with the true geth, building a krogan army, working with the rachni, etc. It's very similar to what Saren was doing and I wouldn't be surprised if the Council like with Saren thought that the reapers were a myth being used by Shepard to control those factions.

Did Grayson give an viable results though on how to counter indoctrination? 

We won't know until ME3. I have little doubt that we'll get some significant information though.

They were developed from salvaged reaper tech from things already blow up. It's fully intact Reaper tech that makes my Shep pause. Intact reaper tech gives the urge to simply point and shoot.Maybe boost the power a little. Building it from scratch involves learning how it shoots and fiddling around with it so that it shoots more comfortably to you. 

The derelict reaper was certainly not fully intact yet it could still indoctrinated after 37 million years.

Also, you shouldn't assume that fully intact reaper tech means that whoever gets their hands on it (Cerberus) is going to just start using it as is and passing it around to people. It's pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about the reapers that such a thing is a bad idea.

What I expect from the collector base is for Cerberus to secretly release improved technology to the Alliance that they used to dramatically increase the offensive and defensive power of all of their ships.

I don't for the simple reason that BW will have to deal with people complaining about earlier choices leading to railroading in the third game. Then of course is the whole wanting each part to stand on its own bit.

That said I wouldn't mind the base contributing (I also would hope that saving the Rachni/Geth would contribute as well) however due to BW's desire to continue the worl of ME (supposedly) I don't see widely different end world states. 

Unfortunately you have a point. BioWare doesn't seem to have the balls to make a true trilogy where the events of each game have a significant impact on the final game.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If anyone has the experience to deal with the Reaper side-effects, it would definitely be Cerberus. Their criminal history is almost a different topic when looking at the Reapers... same for characters like Zaeed and Jack (you've been killing Blue Suns and Psychopaths all this time, you only teamed up with this lot to stop the Collectors)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[Tennessee88]

Its not really an issue about balls as much as it is allowing for Mass Effect to continue past the trilogy. Unless they want to shoot the timeline so far forward that there would be no need to address the consequences of Shepard's actions. I would love for Bioware to make it where to different possibilities are so great and so gut wrenching that I immediately dust off Mass Effect 1 and start all over again.

[Ryzaki]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Simply put, the reapers are a great enough danger that we can't afford to destroy the base and hope we'll find another way to deal with them.

Where's I think keeping the base is giving them a knife to stick us in the back with. 

I just don't have confidence in the Council. They did not trust Shepard when it came down to it and either didn't help him or actively hampered him.

The council wasn't the only one with the idiot ball. Shep has no real proof of *anything* he's saying until the collector's are dragging people off. And even with that he's then working with a enemy of the council but offers them no real proof that this is because of the Reapers. 

"Oh but I saw them in a vision." isn't proof. 

Soverign bits for some reason have been removed (though this doesn't excuse the council. Even if they thought it was a Geth invention that is what they should've been building up their army for) and Shep doesn't ever bother to bring something as simple as a damn video camera along with him. <_<

Hell, I'm half-expecting ME3 to start with Shepard being on trial for having an AI running his ship, working with the true geth, building a krogan army, working with the rachni, etc. It's very similar to what Saren was doing and I wouldn't be surprised if the Council like with Saren thought that the reapers were a myth being used by Shepard to control those factions.

*groans* Not you too?!? Bah. If that happens I'm done. Just...done. My Shep will head for a nice remote planet (in fanfic if not in game) and let the Reapers screw over everyone. 

We won't know until ME3. I have little doubt that we'll get some significant information though.

I hope so. 

The derelict reaper was certainly not fully intact yet it could still indoctrinated after 37 million years

Actually it was. EDI tells you that it's in a extremely low powered state. (Doesn't she? That's the reason it's still floating right because parts of it are still operational?) 

Also, you shouldn't assume that fully intact reaper tech means that whoever gets their hands on it (Cerberus) is going to just start using it as is and passing it around to people. It's pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about the reapers that such a thing is a bad idea.

It's pretty obvious to me that a lot of the things Cerberus does are bad ideas. Doesn't stop them from doing them. 

What I expect from the collector base is for Cerberus to secretly release improved technology to the Alliance that they used to dramatically increase the offensive and defensive power of all of their ships.

Which might help. Or might ****** the turians and other alien off depending on how it's done and risk a war breaking out with each other right with the Reapers on the doorstep. (also depending on if you saved/killed the alien council. If the latter I'm pretty sure the turians are about to come to blows regardless). 

Unfortunately you have a point. BioWare doesn't seem to have the balls to make a true trilogy where the events of each game have a significant impact on the final game.

 

I'm pretty sure if they did the whole "Ah yes 'Reapers'." wouldn't have existed in the first place. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 10:04 .