586 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ryzaki wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Simply put, the reapers are a great enough danger that we can't afford to destroy the base and hope we'll find another way to deal with them.

Where's I think keeping the base is giving them a knife to stick us in the back with. 

If that happened, it would've happened either way.  Cerberus was studying Reapers waaay before resurrecting you.  And they have ears in the Alliance (so any discoveries you made to defeat the Reapers without them would likely be discovered and bettered anyway... an example of this is the Normandy SR2).

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Simply put, the reapers are a great enough danger that we can't afford to destroy the base and hope we'll find another way to deal with them.

Where's I think keeping the base is giving them a knife to stick us in the back with. 

If that happened, it would've happened either way.  Cerberus was studying Reapers waaay before resurrecting you.  And they have ears in the Alliance (so any discoveries you made to defeat the Reapers without them would likely be discovered and bettered anyway... an example of this is the Normandy SR2).

How is the SR2 Reaper tech? You mean EDI not the ship itself. 

And sure but I'm not gonna be the one at fault for it. And I'm not giving them a bigger knife to stick me with. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 10:09 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I personally think the chances of stopping Cerberus are higher when you're near them than when you're not. You had to work with him to even see his face.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

I personally think the chances of stopping Cerberus are higher when you're near them than when you're not. You had to work with him to even see his face.

But I have more important things to do than babysit damn Cerberus. 

I have a Reaper invasion to stop! (or a safe planet to hide on). 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Which is where the contradiction comes in.



Stopping the Collectors with Cerberus was fine and getting intel, etc. to them toward that end is "okay." Additionally, recruiting and teaming up with some of the most dangerous, powerful, and unstable people in the galaxy to prevent solely human abduction also works for every Shepard.



But with the Collector Base Mission a complete success, now is the time to cut ties with Cerberus? I mean we stopped human colony abduction.. but the Reapers are a much MUCH bigger threat than that. That kind of reaction seems more like fear compromising who Shepard has been up to that point.

[Ryzaki]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Which is where the contradiction comes in.

Stopping the Collectors with Cerberus was fine and getting intel, etc. to them toward that end is "okay." Additionally, recruiting and teaming up with some of the most dangerous, powerful, and unstable people in the galaxy to prevent solely human abduction also works for every Shepard.

But with the Collector Base Mission a complete success, now is the time to cut ties with Cerberus? I mean we stopped human colony abduction.. but the Reapers are a much MUCH bigger threat than that. That kind of reaction seems more like fear compromising who Shepard has been up to that point.

First off I wouldn't have worked with Cerberus had I not gotten railroaded by ME2's plot. 

So contradiction my foot. 

And many of those "unstable" people got killed of in the SM. Shep did the galaxy a favor. 

I would've cut ties with them a long time ago had the plot not demanded my Shep become retarded. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 février 2011 - 10:25 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

lol I hear ya

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 11 février 2011 - 10:27 .

[Wulfram]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Which is where the contradiction comes in.

Stopping the Collectors with Cerberus was fine and getting intel, etc. to them toward that end is "okay." Additionally, recruiting and teaming up with some of the most dangerous, powerful, and unstable people in the galaxy to prevent solely human abduction also works for every Shepard.

But with the Collector Base Mission a complete success, now is the time to cut ties with Cerberus? I mean we stopped human colony abduction.. but the Reapers are a much MUCH bigger threat than that. That kind of reaction seems more like fear compromising who Shepard has been up to that point.

Destroying the base isn't about Shepard being unwilling to work with Cerberus.  It's about him being unwilling to strengthen Cerberus.  If TIM wants to continue spending his resources helping against the Reapers that's fine. 

[Ieldra]

Wulfram wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Which is where the contradiction comes in.

Stopping the Collectors with Cerberus was fine and getting intel, etc. to them toward that end is "okay." Additionally, recruiting and teaming up with some of the most dangerous, powerful, and unstable people in the galaxy to prevent solely human abduction also works for every Shepard.

But with the Collector Base Mission a complete success, now is the time to cut ties with Cerberus? I mean we stopped human colony abduction.. but the Reapers are a much MUCH bigger threat than that. That kind of reaction seems more like fear compromising who Shepard has been up to that point.

Destroying the base isn't about Shepard being unwilling to work with Cerberus.  It's about him being unwilling to strengthen Cerberus.

Unwilling to strengthen Cerberus at the price of destroying invaluable inforomation about the Reapers. Smart.

[Wulfram]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Unwilling to strengthen Cerberus at the price of destroying invaluable inforomation about the Reapers. Smart.

I doubt it will be that invaluable.

Of course, the main problem is that for some reason our only choices are destroy it or hand it over to Cerberus.  Both of those options are stupid, really.

[philiposophy]

You don't think it will be invaluable in the war with the reapers but you do think it's sufficient to make Cerberus getting stronger a real concern?

[lovgreno]

Wulfram wrote...
Destroying the base isn't about Shepard being unwilling to work with Cerberus.  It's about him being unwilling to strengthen Cerberus.  If TIM wants to continue spending his resources helping against the Reapers that's fine. 

Or/and making sure that the dangerous reaper base will no longer be a threat to the galaxy.

[Wulfram]

philiposophy wrote...

You don't think it will be invaluable in the war with the reapers but you do think it's sufficient to make Cerberus getting stronger a real concern?

There's quite a few things which won't do anything much to stop the reapers, but which I wouldn't want Cerberus to have.

The Destiny Ascension, for example

[Vaenier]

philiposophy wrote...

You don't think it will be invaluable in the war with the reapers but you do think it's sufficient to make Cerberus getting stronger a real concern?

After the war, it will literally be raining Reaper tech in the Galaxy. The stuff from the collector base will be obslete in a couple years anyway.

The only way Cerberus could gain power from the base is because they save the galaxy and get good PR.

[msantos]

Good discussion.

I personally hope that in ME3 Cerberus will NOT be a big player at all mainly because they suffered a debilitating loss from the Turian attack and it would take them quite a bit of effort and time to reconstitute to the operational levels they were at during ME2.
In my view, this will definitely help a Paragon Shepard and help end the relationship with Cerberus in a way delivering the condition that the asari council member wished for when Shepard returned to the Citadel.

This is not to say that Cerberus could not be plot contributor. In fact I hope they are as I would regard any additional positive contribution of theirs as the ultimate act of redemption and some accreditation at the eyes on many (human and non-human alike). So as to not throw away the value of the experience learnt with the Paul Grayson implant I would hope that Cerberus will move from being a major player to playing a supporting role that is fitting of its greatly reduced size and effectiveness.

Yes, we'll have to see what the writers and BW come up with for ME3 but I suspect it is going to be fun.

Cheers

Modifié par msantos, 11 février 2011 - 01:06 .

[Aigyl]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Is there any reasonable chance that valuable technology can be retreived from the base?
Will Cerberus use that technology against the Reapers?
Would that technology help in any meaningful way against the Reapers?

Now in gameplay terms, we all know that we can defeat the Reapers without it. We know that keeping the base will mean a stronger Cerberus at the end of the game. If you're a renegade, fighting for a strong, self-sufficient humanity then that's good. If you're an "internationalist" then that's bad.

However, if you're roleplaying, then I think you have to ask yourself the top 3 questions.If you answered yes to all 3 of those questions, you should keep the base. If you answer no (even if its just roleplaying your Shepard) then blowing it up is the obvious choice, because we all know that there will be consquences to keeping it.

Now, roleplaying my paragade Shepard, I have to answer yes. The  Reapers are the largest and most immediate threat. The aftermath is secondary.

This. Very much this.

As much as I want to replicate blowing up the Death Star and ****** off TIM, I have regretfully been persuaded that keeping the Base is the best option. Cerberus is very likely going to do horrible things with that tech but it is nothing compared to what the Reapers can do.

What irks me about the decision is that everyone congratulates you for blowing up the Base and everyone tells you off for keeping the Base. WHY? What is the point in making every single character give you an ego boost if you blew up the Base and a metaphorical kick in the face if you kept the Base?

[AkiKishi]

I never trusted TIM from the start. Trusted him even less after his ranting on the base. Made it an easy choice.



Not going to become the enemy just to defeat it.

[Vaenier]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I never trusted TIM from the start. Trusted him even less after his ranting on the base. Made it an easy choice.

Not going to become the enemy just to defeat it.

The species that survives is not the strongest, but the one who adapts the most.

But I am sure the galaxy is glad that you were there to choose their death over the illconcieved idea that tim could take over the galaxy with 150 guys and tech that will be outdated by the end of the war. They are so happy they will only be alive a few more years.

[AkiKishi]

Vaenier wrote...

The species that survives is not the strongest, but the one who adapts the most.

But I am sure the galaxy is glad that you were there to choose their death over the illconcieved idea that tim could take over the galaxy with 150 guys and tech that will be outdated by the end of the war. They are so happy they will only be alive a few more years.

Maybe they would have prefered to be turned into goo ? Or have their nervous systems replaced by cybernetics ?

Cerberus will do those things, saw it first hand.

[Arijharn]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Again, admirably cautious, and possibly even effective, albeit very slow.

Maybe, but it's still more progress than what you'd get if you know... you destroyed the base in the first place. True, the base may not have anything of value, but the risk in case there was and you promptly detonated it is too great. Militarily speaking, it would be a catastrophically stupid decision to make. If it's useless, you can always destroy it later, but only after you've ascertained that it was indeed useless.

Pro_Consul wrote...
But as Shep how likely is it you will be able to compel TIM to take such precautions? After all, we have to remember that the situation is not Shep deciding whether to destroy the base or keep it himself, but whether to destroy it or give it to Cerberus. How likely is it that Cerberus will accept such draconian safety measures and their inevitable slowing of results and not resort to shortcuts which cause the whole thing to blow up in everyone's faces.

I temper this with a certain amount of 'faith' that Cerberus and TIM aren't complete and utter idiots. Sure, progress is required, but I think it would be catastrophic beyond just the obvious if they 'rushed' in too much. Afterall, the Collector Base is unique, and the threat that the Reapers represent also threatens Cerberus and it's aims (let alone the rest of the galaxy's species). 

Presumably, Cerberus will send their best and brightest to the station, and even it's remoteness may prove some added protection against the Reaper attacks themselves.

It's a hard balancing act to be sure; but if the continuation of World War 2 made things a bit tense, the Manhattan Project managed to work it's way through the hard math well enough, and as far as I'm aware, didn't suffer any massive breakdowns in terms of maths.

I'd also think that a certain amount of due respect would be considered nowadays for any project, Indoctrination is an insidious form of attack that apparently even works after the Reaper's death and more to the point Cerberus recognises this. 

Pro_Consul wrote...
Ah well, still I can see where you are coming from anyway. If I was on your team when your Shep made this choice I would prolly understand enough to accept your orders.  But like Mordin and others I would be grumbling about it after the fact....

I wouldn't think every decision I make would be met with wide open arms. But I did find it interesting that not one of your companions in the game really gave you much in the way of solution in the way of preparing for the Reapers other than the proverbial slap on the back. As far as I can see it, by destroying the base you've added an unknown chaotic ingredient to the recipe that is defeating the Reapers, whereas by keeping it the end goal seems to be a plottable course.

Or to use another analogy, it's like rogaining, destroying the base means that you wont pick up some points, whereas keeping it nets you some. The problem is, neither option knows exactly where the timer is at.

[Kekkis]

After seeing braindead Reaper building husk army and that IFF calling home I don´t want another headache, so I just destroy that thing. I don´t trust that station to be nice and give us cool stuff before Reapers arrive.

[jbblue05]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Based on what? Every single Reaper-tech facility or ruin that we have heard of to date had indoctrination tech built into it. Why would this one be different?

People are indoctrinated by dragon's teeth or a Reaper Signal. This doesn't mean the CB is guaranteed to have one.  The Reapers didn't plan anyone to find the CB it was meant to make organic smoothies

Dragon's teeth are for making husks. They are not the only indoctrination tech we have seen.

The only other indoctrination device is from a.Reaper.  And the derelict reaper also had Dragon's teeth 

How? If the base is recaptured by the Collectors and your forces defending it wiped out, probably with active help from the booby trapped base itself, how can we possibly be sure of getting a second chance to destroy it? And when was anyone EVER able to investigate active Reaper facilities without something truly abominable and deadly going wrong?

The Omega 4 Relay protocols can be changed to only allow access from Cerberus vessels.   Failsafes can easily be installed to destroy the base if something goes wrong. When your enemy gives you a weapon you use it, Organics have been using Reaper Tech for years and that tech has drastically improved lives everywhere
 

Really? That IFF itself was booby trapped. It disabled the first ship they hooked it to, even AFTER they took measures to try to make it safe, and then it called for retrieval by the Collectors who showed up and carted off nearly every single crew member for gooification. The only reason it wasn't a complete disaster is that SR2 had an illegal AI aboard and Joker was desperate enough to unshackle it and give it complete control of the ship. But you see the pattern I hope. A 37 million year old DEAD Reaper and it still had active indoctrination up and running; and the one and only item of useful tech taken from that dead Reaper was itself booby trapped to screw over the first fool who tried to use it. Booby traps within booby traps; contingencies for their backup plans; every diabolical precaution taken to prevent anyone turning their own tech against them. That is what we have every reason to expect to find on the CB, except it should be MUCH worse.Because this time we are not talking about a 37 million old derelict but an active and fully maintained Reaper reproductive plant, the single most important kind of facility there is when it comes to Reapers continuing their own race.

Where did you get info that the Collectors abducted the first group Cerberus sent in?
Its obvious the Derelict Reaper is dangerous because its UNKNOWNN what you'll come across.  It was a neccessary risk that still succeeded.  That IFF played a HUGE ROLE in taking down the Collectors.
That Illegal A.I. was Reaper tech also played a huge role in taking down the Collectors
The Reapers weren't counting on people getting acess to the center of the Galaxy.  If the Reapers wanted people to stumble across the CB. They wouldn't have different IFF protocols that prevent organics from gaining acess

[Pro_Consul]

jbblue05 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Based on what? Every single Reaper-tech facility or ruin that we have heard of to date had indoctrination tech built into it. Why would this one be different?

People are indoctrinated by dragon's teeth or a Reaper Signal. This doesn't mean the CB is guaranteed to have one.  The Reapers didn't plan anyone to find the CB it was meant to make organic smoothies

You didn't answer the question you replied to. When have we ever heard of a Reaper facility that did not have indoc tech built in? And how do we know there are no Teeth on the Collector base anyway? We know for a fact that the Collectors were carrying husks around on their ship and we saw no Teeth there, so it seems logical enough to guess that they were coming from that ship's base. That is particularly true considering that we had to fight husks, scions and a Praetorian on the CB.

Dragon's teeth are for making husks. They are not the only indoctrination tech we have seen.

The only other indoctrination device is from a.Reaper.  And the derelict reaper also had Dragon's teeth

See above. For all we know the CB also has Teeth. In fact there is every reason to assume that it does. Husks were present in numbers, after all.

How? If the base is recaptured by the Collectors and your forces defending it wiped out, probably with active help from the booby trapped base itself, how can we possibly be sure of getting a second chance to destroy it? And when was anyone EVER able to investigate active Reaper facilities without something truly abominable and deadly going wrong?

The Omega 4 Relay protocols can be changed to only allow access from Cerberus vessels.   Failsafes can easily be installed to destroy the base if something goes wrong. When your enemy gives you a weapon you use it, Organics have been using Reaper Tech for years and that tech has drastically improved lives everywhere

You have a lot of confidence in their ability to do something that nobody has ever been able to do before, namely reprogram a mass relay's protocols. Heck, they didn't even know that mass relays HAD different protocols until they realized where the Collectors were going when they passed through the Omega-4 relay. As for failsafes, Cerberus has a proven track record in this department - a very BAD one.

Really? That IFF itself was booby trapped. It disabled the first ship they hooked it to, even AFTER they took measures to try to make it safe, and then it called for retrieval by the Collectors who showed up and carted off nearly every single crew member for gooification. The only reason it wasn't a complete disaster is that SR2 had an illegal AI aboard and Joker was desperate enough to unshackle it and give it complete control of the ship. But you see the pattern I hope. A 37 million year old DEAD Reaper and it still had active indoctrination up and running; and the one and only item of useful tech taken from that dead Reaper was itself booby trapped to screw over the first fool who tried to use it. Booby traps within booby traps; contingencies for their backup plans; every diabolical precaution taken to prevent anyone turning their own tech against them. That is what we have every reason to expect to find on the CB, except it should be MUCH worse.Because this time we are not talking about a 37 million old derelict but an active and fully maintained Reaper reproductive plant, the single most important kind of facility there is when it comes to Reapers continuing their own race.

Where did you get info that the Collectors abducted the first group Cerberus sent in?

It happens in game. Sheps crew IS that first group and the Normandy IS that first ship they hooked the IFF up to. You do remember having to rescue them from the Collector base, right?

The Reapers weren't counting on people getting acess to the center of the Galaxy.  If the Reapers wanted people to stumble across the CB. They wouldn't have different IFF protocols that prevent organics from gaining acess

The Reaper also weren't planning on people getting a chance to dissect a Reaper corpse to get an IFF. Didn't stop them from planting booby traps in the IFF.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 11 février 2011 - 06:39 .

[Pro_Consul]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

If anyone has the experience to deal with the Reaper side-effects, it would definitely be Cerberus.

Actually Cerberus is the one group that has proven it does NOT know how to keep such projects from blowing up in their faces. The only Reaper-based tech they have ever come up with was the memory core for EDI, and only because they were working from a small piece of basically destroyed Reaper hardware. Every time we know of that they have tried to research anything more dangerous a hunk of defunct space junk it has ended in horror and death.

[Kekkis]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

If anyone has the experience to deal with the Reaper side-effects, it would definitely be Cerberus.

Actually Cerberus is the one group that has proven it does NOT know how to keep such projects from blowing up in their faces. The only Reaper-based tech they have ever come up with was the memory core for EDI, and only because they were working from a small piece of basically destroyed Reaper hardware. Every time we know of that they have tried to research anything more dangerous a hunk of defunct space junk it has ended in horror and death.

Talking about projects that will fail. Asking Spacer Shepard to give that base to Cerberus. After Collectors invaded Sheps ship (Sheps kingdom), stealing Sheps crew (Sheps family) and planning to make a smoothie from them. Does TIM really think that Shep is thinking about Earth and its rightful place ruling the universe, or is it just Sheps personal rescue and revenge mission?

And of course Shepard can always trust that Cerberus projects will fail sooner or later. They have special talent for it. <3