586 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Pro_Consul wrote...

You didn't answer the question you replied to. When have we ever heard of a Reaper facility that did not have indoc tech built in? And how do we know there are no Teeth on the Collector base anyway? We know for a fact that the Collectors were carrying husks around on their ship and we saw no Teeth there, so it seems logical enough to guess that they were coming from that ship's base. That is particularly true considering that we had to fight husks, scions and a Praetorian on the CB.

The only Reaper facility we've been on was the Derelict Reaper, Collector Cruiser, and the CB.  We haven't seen indoctrination devices on the Collector Cruiser and the CB yet.  It also seems logical that the Reapers will leave husks, scions, and patorians  behind for their Collectors..  All we know from the CB is that humans were being used to create the human Reaper

You have a lot of confidence in their ability to do something that nobody has ever been able to do before, namely reprogram a mass relay's protocols. Heck, they didn't even know that mass relays HAD different protocols until they realized where the Collectors were going when they passed through the Omega-4 relay. As for failsafes, Cerberus has a proven track record in this department - a very BAD one.

Cerberus may or may not be able  to change the IFF protocols, but they have direct access to the technology needed to do this.
Cerberus doesn't have a proven track record, remember Bioware lets you only see Cerberus failures and not their succeses for story purposes

It happens in game. Sheps crew IS that first group and the Normandy IS that first ship they hooked the IFF up to. You do remember having to rescue them from the Collector base, right?

Must have misread your post. I thought you were implying Cerberus sent a team before Chandana' team.

[ReluctantMind]

I feel like it is worthwhile to caution people about false absolutes, especially the big doomsday scenario that becomes a justification for any action. Whenever anyone says something along the lines of "The Reapers are coming, so all bets are off" it becomes a justification for taking any shortcut or committing any heinous act ostensibly to address the overriding threat. It would justify a stance of "You know, I'm not NORMALLY an advocate for genocide, but the Turians are being too obstructionist and we could really use their resources against the Reapers". This leads to one of my concerns about the Collector base. The Collector base will likely provide plenty of information on the Collectors (who we've already whipped on plenty), but very little about the actual Reapers. After all, Harbinger was in control of the Collector general during the base's death throes whether the base is kept or destroyed. If all that key punching by the general wasn't purging useful data regarding the Reapers then I can't see what purpose it was serving. The one thing I think the Collector base would be useful for in the short term is making technological improvements that would be basically useless against the Reapers, but useful in giving humanity an advantage over/ability to dominate our current galactic peers. Cerberus has the connections in the Alliance military to push their agenda using this short term benefit as a carrot. Maybe we should all just support them doing that. After all, the Reapers are coming and that justifies any action.

[Pro_Consul]

jbblue05 wrote...

The only Reaper facility we've been on was the Derelict Reaper, Collector Cruiser, and the CB.  We haven't seen indoctrination devices on the Collector Cruiser and the CB yet. 

Actually we saw two different Reaper facilities on side missions in ME1, and both had been investigated by humans who ended up being indoctrinated and becoming husks. In one Shep blows up the indoctrination device, and in the other there are just a bunch of Teeth. Then there was Saren's base on Virmire, at which even the scientists studying the indoc tech were ending up being indoctrinated. So that is three more facilities, all of which had indoctrination in use, and only one of them had any Teeth at it.

It also seems logical that the Reapers will leave husks, scions, and patorians  behind for their Collectors..  All we know from the CB is that humans were being used to create the human Reaper

Not buying it. Sovereign did not give husks to the heretic geth; it gave them Teeth. There is no reason to believe that the Reapers gave the Collectors husks but withheld Teeth, and every reason to believe the opposite.

Cerberus doesn't have a proven track record, remember Bioware lets you only see Cerberus failures and not their succeses for story purposes

True, but that is all that Shep has ever seen of them. Why should Shepard base this decision on a view of Cerberus that is so contrary to his/her own experiences and prior knowledge of them?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 11 février 2011 - 07:50 .

[jbblue05]

Pro_Consul wrote...

The only Reaper facility we've been on was the Derelict Reaper, Collector Cruiser, and the CB.  We haven't seen indoctrination devices on the Collector Cruiser and the CB yet. 

Actually we saw two different Reaper facilities on side missions in ME1, and both had been investigated by humans who ended up being indoctrinated and becoming husks. In one Shep blows up the indoctrination device, and in the other there are just a bunch of Teeth. Then there was Saren's base on Virmire, at which even the scientists studying the indoc tech were ending up being indoctrinated. So that is three more facilities, all of which had indoctrination in use, and only one of them had any Teeth at it.

Those weren't facilities the dragon's teeth were artifacts  recovered by survey teams.  Dragon's teeth are indoctrination devices I'm sure TIM knows that about now.

Not buying it. Sovereign did not give husks to the heretic geth; it gave them Teeth. There is no reason to believe that the Reapers gave the Collectors husks but withheld Teeth, and every reason to believe the opposite.

Sovereign and the Reapers have indoctirnation devices onboard them. I'm not denying that the Collectors may have had Dragon's teeth.
But it seems like the Collectors have only started harvesting recently, meaning the husks, scions, and paetorians could've been put in stasis until they were neededfor harvesting.
  

True, but that is all that Shep has ever seen of them. Why should Shepard base this decision on a view of Cerberus that is so contrary to his/her own experiences and prior knowledge of them?

Because Trillions of lives hang in the balance

Modifié par jbblue05, 11 février 2011 - 08:02 .

[Pro_Consul]

jbblue05 wrote...

Those weren't facilities the dragon's teeth were artifacts  recovered by survey teams.  Dragon's teeth are indoctrination devices I'm sure TIM knows that about now.

No, they were never recovered; they were just discovered in situ.

Sovereign and the Reapers have indoctirnation devices onboard them. I'm not denying that the Collectors may have had Dragon's teeth.
But it seems like the Collectors have only started harvesting recently, meaning the husks, scions, and paetorians could've been put in stasis until they were neededfor harvesting.

That logic doesn't really work, either. On Horizon they clearly state that those husks are human-based, more advanced than the ones the Geth used, and that they had to have been brought along by the Collectors. Being human-based means they were made at some point AFTER the Collectors began having contact with humans. Being more advanced suggests they were made with a newer version of the Teeth than what the Geth had been given.
  

True, but that is all that Shep has ever seen of them. Why should Shepard base this decision on a view of Cerberus that is so contrary to his/her own experiences and prior knowledge of them?

Because Trillions of lives hang in the balance

So the higher threat level requires Shep to base his/her decisions on facts of which he/she is completely unaware. Not buying that logic, either. Sounds like meta-gaming to me.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 11 février 2011 - 08:13 .

[Aigyl]

ReluctantMind wrote...

I feel like it is worthwhile to caution people about false absolutes, especially the big doomsday scenario that becomes a justification for any action. Whenever anyone says something along the lines of "The Reapers are coming, so all bets are off" it becomes a justification for taking any shortcut or committing any heinous act ostensibly to address the overriding threat. It would justify a stance of "You know, I'm not NORMALLY an advocate for genocide, but the Turians are being too obstructionist and we could really use their resources against the Reapers". This leads to one of my concerns about the Collector base. The Collector base will likely provide plenty of information on the Collectors (who we've already whipped on plenty), but very little about the actual Reapers. After all, Harbinger was in control of the Collector general during the base's death throes whether the base is kept or destroyed. If all that key punching by the general wasn't purging useful data regarding the Reapers then I can't see what purpose it was serving. The one thing I think the Collector base would be useful for in the short term is making technological improvements that would be basically useless against the Reapers, but useful in giving humanity an advantage over/ability to dominate our current galactic peers. Cerberus has the connections in the Alliance military to push their agenda using this short term benefit as a carrot. Maybe we should all just support them doing that. After all, the Reapers are coming and that justifies any action.

Very valid point.

Trouble is.... I actually do see the Reaper threat as justifying nearly any action that could help stop them.

The Reapers are a threat that has systematically destroyed all spacefaring life in the galaxy over and over and over and over. Their technology is quite literally on the level of a God's. Thousands of Reapers are coming, and just one Reaper who was a sitting duck nearly wiped out an entire fleet on its own, and may have only been killed because it was in the middle of controlling an Avatar that was destroyed.

The odds are impossibly stacked against the galaxy. Anything which could help stop the Reapers could be critical. Studying Reaper tech, learning how it works, developing counter-measures, etc. could go a helluva long way.

When you are facing an impossible threat and extinction is looking you in the eye, then Survival trumps Ethics, every time. Obviously ethics should be absolutely kept where possible, and rightfully so, but if the circumstances are desperate enough then sadly morals must take a backseat to getting as many people through the crisis alive as possible.

This of course hinges on you believing that the Collector Base is more useful than not. If you think that keeping the Base will actually make the war effort worse thanks to team Derperus or because the tech will probably end up backfiring, then by all means blowing it up is the best choice. It's all about perspective.

[Sajuro]

This discussion may very well be invalid because in both the Renegade and Paragon endings the control room where the Collector general is gets consumed by a big fireball. That control room is probably where all of the information on the Reapers is kept and the fireball could have very well destroyed the computer systems.

TIM: The computers were irrepably damaged in an explosion Shepard.

Shepard: I guess there's more than one way to -puts on shades- fry a computer.

Crew: yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[James2912]

Haha! I would be so pissed!

[Vaenier]

Sajuro wrote...

This discussion may very well be invalid because in both the Renegade and Paragon endings the control room where the Collector general is gets consumed by a big fireball. That control room is probably where all of the information on the Reapers is kept and the fireball could have very well destroyed the computer systems.

TIM: The computers were irrepably damaged in an explosion Shepard.

Shepard: I guess there's more than one way to -puts on shades- fry a computer.

Crew: yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaah

I would not mind, as long as Shep really does that.

[Ryzaki]

Sajuro wrote...

This discussion may very well be invalid because in both the Renegade and Paragon endings the control room where the Collector general is gets consumed by a big fireball. That control room is probably where all of the information on the Reapers is kept and the fireball could have very well destroyed the computer systems.

TIM: The computers were irrepably damaged in an explosion Shepard.

Shepard: I guess there's more than one way to -puts on shades- fry a computer.

Crew: yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaah

I'd laugh so hard if this was the case. 

[Vaenier]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

If anyone has the experience to deal with the Reaper side-effects, it would definitely be Cerberus.

Actually Cerberus is the one group that has proven it does NOT know how to keep such projects from blowing up in their faces. The only Reaper-based tech they have ever come up with was the memory core for EDI, and only because they were working from a small piece of basically destroyed Reaper hardware. Every time we know of that they have tried to research anything more dangerous a hunk of defunct space junk it has ended in horror and death.

I am really sad Bioware had to butcher Cerberus in order to give people stuff to shoot at. What the **** is their writing department even doing?! The point of the game is to stop the Collectors, yet we only fight them 3 times. We spend more time fighting Cerberus projects than the main threat of the entire game. What was the point of the collectors even, all they did was waste time and resources no matter how you look at it. The story of ME has been butchered to become a bad linear shooter, a mere shadow of what it once was.

I dont even know why I come here to discuss anymore. All these discussions are either people being racists, or people defending how good this game was. All I do lately is point at its numerous flaws and foolishly try to convince the racists of their error. The Halo 2 forums were better than this, too bad they degraded into just multiplayer talk.

I am getting tired of banging my head against this brick wall.

[jbblue05]

Pro_Consul wrote...

That logic doesn't really work, either. On Horizon they clearly state that those husks are human-based, more advanced than the ones the Geth used, and that they had to have been brought along by the Collectors. Being human-based means they were made at some point AFTER the Collectors began having contact with humans. Being more advanced suggests they were made with a newer version of the Teeth than what the Geth had been given.

I think the ME1 husks are more advanced. Their AOE ability was annoying.  The Geth could've made modifications to the Dragon's teeth.  The MSV Cornnucoppia entered Geth space and Eden Prime had Geth using Dragon's teeth.  CHasca could've used Dragon's teeth  from Eden Prime.  The Abandoned Mine is  the question mark the Geth could've manipulated organics to excavate the site. or an isolated incident

Their is still a possibility of the Collectors using Sovereign or the Derelict Reaper to convert the husks.  Even if the Collectors have indoctrinated devices it can be destroyed or avoidd entirely
  

So the higher threat level requires Shep to base his/her decisions on facts of which he/she is completely unaware. Not buying that logic, either. Sounds like meta-gaming to me.

Shepard already knows beforehand that the Reapers have wiped out all life in the Galaxy many times over. That's not meta-gaming

[Pro_Consul]

jbblue05 wrote...

I think the ME1 husks are more advanced. Their AOE ability was annoying.  The Geth could've made modifications to the Dragon's teeth.  The MSV Cornnucoppia entered Geth space and Eden Prime had Geth using Dragon's teeth.  CHasca could've used Dragon's teeth  from Eden Prime.  The Abandoned Mine is  the question mark the Geth could've manipulated organics to excavate the site. or an isolated incident

Their is still a possibility of the Collectors using Sovereign or the Derelict Reaper to convert the husks.  Even if the Collectors have indoctrinated devices it can be destroyed or avoidd entirely

You seem to be clutching at straws here, particularly since all of your speculation is contradicted by actual in-game experiences that Shep has had.
  

So the higher threat level requires Shep to base his/her decisions on facts of which he/she is completely unaware. Not buying that logic, either. Sounds like meta-gaming to me.

Shepard already knows beforehand that the Reapers have wiped out all life in the Galaxy many times over. That's not meta-gaming

Nice try, but that little side step isn't gonna fly, either. You yourself said that Shep's reason for preserving the base was partly because of Cerberus' successful operations, and even admitted that Shep knew nothing about them. When asked why Shep should be making decisions based on information we know Shep DIDN'T have, your answer was that the Reaper threat justified it. Basically you said that because of the magnitude of the threat it was justifiable for Shep to base decisions on information that could only be obtained OOC by the RL player. That is a textbook case of meta-gaming.

Edit: anyway, I can see that there will no convincing going on here for either of us. This kinda got rolling more out of a small instance of correcting a coupla misstatements, and then it kinda snowballed. Forums....whaddya gonna do?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 01:27 .

[jbblue05]

Clutching at straws I think not. All my evidence is based on an in-game experience. I'm not pullinh anything out of my ass.



I never gave only one reason to saved the base, I have multiple reasons if you read my posts and not single out one thing.

Shepard does know about some Cerberus operations he was part of one and has first-hand experience on others prior to assaulting the CB.



This is getting pointless I agree..

[Gemini1179]

@ OP. Paragons never kept it, my Renegade will. (Haven't finished my Renegade playthrough)



Reasoning? My Paragons will win through galactic unity, while my Renegade will win through superior firepower.



Honestly, IMHO, if the Reaper IFF nearly got you killed, I'd say the Collector Base is a disaster waiting to happen...

[Vaenier]

Gemini1179 wrote...

@ OP. Paragons never kept it, my Renegade will. (Haven't finished my Renegade playthrough)

Reasoning? My Paragons will win through galactic unity, while my Renegade will win through superior firepower.

Honestly, IMHO, if the Reaper IFF nearly got you killed, I'd say the Collector Base is a disaster waiting to happen...

Why cant you have unity and share that fancy technology with your friends at the same time?

Also, is it ironic that the Renegade route saves the most alien lives by your logic?

[V_Burgh]

I've destroyed the base every time regardless of being Paragon or Renegade. I simply don't trust the Illusive Man or Cerberus with that kind of power. In one of my eventual playthroughs I will give it to Cerberus simply to see the outcome in ME3.

[Gemini1179]

Vaenier wrote...

Also, is it ironic that the Renegade route saves the most alien lives by your logic?

How so? Any speculation on the potential use or drawback of the Collector base right now is just that- speculation. Besides, what I meant was superior firepower for 'humanity'. I can't see aliens benefitting from what TIM would do with the CB. Again, at this point it's all just speculation.

[Vaenier]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Also, is it ironic that the Renegade route saves the most alien lives by your logic?

How so? Any speculation on the potential use or drawback of the Collector base right now is just that- speculation. Besides, what I meant was superior firepower for 'humanity'. I can't see aliens benefitting from what TIM would do with the CB. Again, at this point it's all just speculation.

That is what I am talking about. Instead of a united fleet of aliens with outdated tech, Renegades fight with an advanced fleet of humans. I just find the whole idea funny.

[Sajuro]

Vaenier wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Also, is it ironic that the Renegade route saves the most alien lives by your logic?

How so? Any speculation on the potential use or drawback of the Collector base right now is just that- speculation. Besides, what I meant was superior firepower for 'humanity'. I can't see aliens benefitting from what TIM would do with the CB. Again, at this point it's all just speculation.

That is what I am talking about. Instead of a united fleet of aliens with outdated tech, Renegades fight with an advanced fleet of humans. I just find the whole idea funny.

The same outdated tech that saved 3 crew member's lives and owned the collector ship? is that the outdated tech you're talking about?

[Schneidend]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: giant blender that makes human smoothies. Destroy it.



Keeping the Collector Base is like keeping a haunted house in those movies where the house itself warps in order to murder you.



Hopefully Bioware will indoctrinate the hell out of any science team that Cerberus sends to the base. That's the only thing that should reasonably happen for keeping it.

[James2912]

I would keep a haunted house in order to study it and prove that there are ghosts!

Modifié par James2912, 12 février 2011 - 04:44 .

[DPSSOC]

Schneidend wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: giant blender that makes human smoothies. Destroy it.

Keeping the Collector Base is like keeping a haunted house in those movies where the house itself warps in order to murder you.

Hopefully Bioware will indoctrinate the hell out of any science team that Cerberus sends to the base. That's the only thing that should reasonably happen for keeping it.

Why?  There was one, incomplete, Reaper on the base and if you gather and remove the wreckage there's no risk of indoctrination.  Even if the base does indoctrinate we know the warning signs and can take steps.  Honestly if all other Renegade choices are "wrong"(as seems to be the trend) this is the one that should be right.  You do not throw away the opportunity to study enemy tech because you don't like what they did with it.

[Schneidend]

You have Collector weapons, software and weapons from Sovereign, debris from the base, etc. The base itself is an unnecessary risk. My Shepard doesn't believe in unnecessary risks.



Besides, no amount of "steps" can be taken against indoctrination. Saren knew what indoctrination's signs were, as he had a base specifically designed to research it, and he still became a puppet. Cerberus had all this information and more, and still the science team succumbed.

[jbblue05]

Schneidend wrote...

You have Collector weapons, software and weapons from Sovereign, debris from the base, etc. The base itself is an unnecessary risk. My Shepard doesn't believe in unnecessary risks.

Besides, no amount of "steps" can be taken against indoctrination. Saren knew what indoctrination's signs were, as he had a base specifically designed to research it, and he still became a puppet. Cerberus had all this information and more, and still the science team succumbed.

Confidence born of ignorance..
you do not know as much as you think human. the worse thing you can do is undersetimate your enemy. The Reapers are a powerful adversary tossing aside huge data cache is more riskier than destroying the base..  


Ceerberus has never been onboard a reaper until they found a derelict one.  So how exactly did Cerberus have all this information before going on a derelict reaper.

Their is always blowing up the indoctrination devices.  I'm sure their not indestructible