586 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Saren was trying to study and avoid indoctrination from within the system. Cerberus can have people on the outside as a control group to watch those within. As for the Derelict Reaper it was thought to be disabled and harmless; and I believe TIM points out that they lost contact immediately.



As for unnecessary risks we have very little from Sovereign, any information we can gather fro the base (which cannot be gathered from debris) on the construction principles of Reaper vessels is a boon. That's like saying it doesn't matter if we can capture an enemy hard drive(and all the data there-in) as long as we can smash it with a hammer and collect the component parts.

[Pro_Consul]

DPSSOC wrote...

That's like saying it doesn't matter if we can capture an enemy hard drive(and all the data there-in) as long as we can smash it with a hammer and collect the component parts.

Bad analogy. A hard drive in no way resembles a jumbonious space station, not even in this context. In the HD example presumably the only prize to be had is the data on it. In the space station itself, there are valuable things which can be learned just from the pieces. How do you think Cerberus built EDI's memory core? From a chuck of Sovereign collected after it was blown to smithereens.

And you know what? There has never been a known instance of anyone being indoctrinated by a piece of blown up  Reaper facility. And there has never been a known instance of researchers NOT being indoctrinated by an intact  Reaper facility. No matter how valuable the info on the CB, it does you no good if you cannot retrieve it because your scientists/investigators keep getting indoctrinated. And in any case, the CG appeared to be busily wiping all the 'puter records right before Harby released control of it.

[Mecha Tengu]

oh just keep it



for once, not being a metagaming, paragon, morality wimp will probably help in the future.

[DPSSOC]

Pro_Consul wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
That's like saying it doesn't matter if we can capture an enemy hard drive(and all the data there-in) as long as we can smash it with a hammer and collect the component parts.

Bad analogy. A hard drive in no way resembles a jumbonious space station, not even in this context. In the HD example presumably the only prize to be had is the data on it. In the space station itself, there are valuable things which can be learned just from the pieces. How do you think Cerberus built EDI's memory core? From a chuck of Sovereign collected after it was blown to smithereens.

 
Fair enough I suppose.

Pro_Consul wrote...
And you know what? There has never been a known instance of anyone being indoctrinated by a piece of blown up  Reaper facility. And there has never been a known instance of researchers NOT being indoctrinated by an intact  Reaper facility.

 
There has never been a known instance of researchers being in an intact Reaper facility.  The DR was a Reaper, it wasn't a space station they built it was a fully intact, if inoperative, Reaper.  Near as we can tell nobody has been indoctrinated by the recovered bits of Sovereign so we're probably safe.  The Reapers have no reason to install indoctrination devices into the base, they never intended anyone to get that far.

Pro_Consul wrote...
No matter how valuable the info on the CB, it does you no good if you cannot retrieve it because your scientists/investigators keep getting indoctrinated. And in any case, the CG appeared to be busily wiping all the 'puter records right before Harby released control of it.

Maybe he was, only one way to know for sure though.  For all we know he was trying to undo whatever Shepard had done.  As for teams being indoctrinated like I said we can take steps and the moment we lose contact send in a cleanup crew.

[Pro_Consul]

DPSSOC wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
And you know what? There has never been a known instance of anyone being indoctrinated by a piece of blown up  Reaper facility. And there has never been a known instance of researchers NOT being indoctrinated by an intact  Reaper facility.

 
There has never been a known instance of researchers being in an intact Reaper facility.  The DR was a Reaper, it wasn't a space station they built it was a fully intact, if inoperative, Reaper.  Near as we can tell nobody has been indoctrinated by the recovered bits of Sovereign so we're probably safe.  The Reapers have no reason to install indoctrination devices into the base, they never intended anyone to get that far.

These points were raised earlier in the thread, but I'll go ahead and repeat the responses I gave then.

First, other Reaper facilities: Shep personally saw three in ME1, the ruins with the indoc machine and husks; the underground chamber with the Dragon's Teeth and more husks; and Saren's base on Virmire - all three had indoc tech active in them. As for recovered bits of Sov, you are making my point for me: researching blown up remains is the only method that has worked safely to date.

And now we get to the assumption that the Reapers would ignore internal base defenses because they "never intended anyone to get that far".  No offense is intended, but there is just no nice way to say this: that is an idiotic assumption to proceed from. The Reapers never intended to have anyone steal and use one of their IFF units; that didn't stop them from booby trapping the crap out of them. Everything we have seen of the Reapers to date shows that they are virtually addicted to contingency planning and booby traps, and that they go to extreme and extremely diabolical lengths to minimize any risk that "lesser" species might ever learn too much about their tech or turn it against them. So to proceed from the assumption that the CB, a factory that actually makes Reapers, would neglect to have any such internal defenses is more or less suicidally foolish.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 07:02 .

[vader da slayer]

the base you destroy or keep is a COLLECTOR base, not a reaper base. there is 0 indoctranation capability inside that facility minus any reaper that might be underconstruction.

on the subject of Reaper tech, the Thanix Cannon (new main gun of the normandy) is the result of a Turian R@D project that started up after the pieces of Soveriegn's (Nazara iirc from Legions LM) wrecked weapons systems. so they are already developing new tech based off reaper tech.

on subject. I destroy the base everytime, not out of some morality or w/e but how can anyone know if a reaper (even a mini reaper) can be controlled if you are the one building it. what if they automaticly know what they are and what they are supposed to do. to big a risk to keep it, and thats not even considering the morality issues of what went on at the base.

[Schneidend]

vader da slayer wrote...

the base you destroy or keep is a COLLECTOR base, not a reaper base. there is 0 indoctranation capability inside that facility minus any reaper that might be underconstruction.

All of the Collectors' advanced technology was supplied by the reapers, including a base capable of surviving the galactic core.

[Inverness Moon]

Gemini1179 wrote...

@ OP. Paragons never kept it, my Renegade will. (Haven't finished my Renegade playthrough)

Reasoning? My Paragons will win through galactic unity, while my Renegade will win through superior firepower.

Honestly, IMHO, if the Reaper IFF nearly got you killed, I'd say the Collector Base is a disaster waiting to happen...

This is a false dichotomy that too many people try to fall back on. Saving the collector base does not prevent galactic unity. Anyone who thinks so is making huge assumptions.

Schneidend wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

the base you destroy or keep is a COLLECTOR base, not a reaper base. there is 0 indoctranation capability inside that facility minus any reaper that might be underconstruction.

All of the Collectors' advanced technology was supplied by the reapers, including a base capable of surviving the galactic core.

That is irrelevant. The collector base would not need indoctrination capabilities because the collectors were engineered and anything not already aligned with the reapers was never supposed to set foot on it. Reapers are meant to be used to transport organics and indoctrinate them for their own purposes like Sovereign did with Saren.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 février 2011 - 09:22 .

[lovgreno]

Schneidend wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

the base you destroy or keep is a COLLECTOR base, not a reaper base. there is 0 indoctranation capability inside that facility minus any reaper that might be underconstruction.

All of the Collectors' advanced technology was supplied by the reapers, including a base capable of surviving the galactic core.

There was even a alive reaper there, even if it's just a larva. And not just any reaper but a human reaper that should be even more dangerous to the humans it is based on than the ancient reapers based on extinct spiecies. There is only one way to make sure that thing will not threaten not just the base but all humans everywhere.

[Schneidend]

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is irrelevant. The collector base would not need indoctrination capabilities because the collectors were engineered and anything not already aligned with the reapers was never supposed to set foot on it. Reapers are meant to be used to transport organics and indoctrinate them for their own purposes like Sovereign did with Saren.

It's perfectly relevant. Every piece of intact reaper technology we've encountered has been capable of indoctrination. To assume the Collector Base is incapable of indoctrination based on the idea that the collectors aren't prepared is foolhardy at best.

[Inverness Moon]

Schneidend wrote...

It's perfectly relevant. Every piece of intact reaper technology we've encountered has been capable of indoctrination. To assume the Collector Base is incapable of indoctrination based on the idea that the collectors aren't prepared is foolhardy at best.

Really, so you're saying the reaper IFF has been indoctrinating the Normandy crew? Or perhaps you're referring to the collector particle beam? Or maybe those floating platforms on the collector ship and base?

To assume that every bit of technology can indoctrinate is nonsensical. It isn't magic.

You say every bit of intact reaper technology we've encountered has been capable of indoctrination, but what have we encountered exactly?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 février 2011 - 11:02 .

[Vaenier]

Worst case scenario for keeping the base: The scientists get indoctrinated, the base blows up with failsafe bomb. Total casualties: Cerberus. Comparison to Paragons: they both have a destroyed base, Renegade has a bunch of dead Cerberus agents. lol.

For you, whats not to like?

[Vociferation]

I've done both and have more than enough Sheps to enjoy all variables...pure curiosity I suppose. Once I've played all my Sheps through to the end of ME3, I plan to go back to ME1 (one more time) and make all of my personally favorite decisions to create my personally fave Shep experience. If saving the base causes more Hell to reign down upon me then so be it...will be a grand battle fo' sho.'

[DPSSOC]

Pro_Consul wrote...
These points were raised earlier in the thread, but I'll go ahead and repeat the responses I gave then.

 
Well it's a long thread and I kind of just drift in and out so thank you.

Pro_Consul wrote...
First, other Reaper facilities: Shep personally saw three in ME1, the ruins with the indoc machine and husks; the underground chamber with the Dragon's Teeth and more husks; and Saren's base on Virmire - all three had indoc tech active in them. As for recovered bits of Sov, you are making my point for me: researching blown up remains is the only method that has worked safely to date.

Ruins, ruins, ruins...not ringing any bells.  Are you talking about that one colony that got husked or the survey team in the Hades Gamma cluster (though this could be the underground chamber but I don't recall DT)?  It's been a while since I played ME1.  As far as Virmire that wasn't a Reaper facility, that was a facility with a Reaper parked at it.  The indoctrination came from Sovereign, the facility was just the controlled environment to observe the effects.

Pro_Consul wrote...
And now we get to the assumption that the Reapers would ignore internal base defenses because they "never intended anyone to get that far".  No offense is intended, but there is just no nice way to say this: that is an idiotic assumption to proceed from.

 
None taken.

Pro_Consul wrote...
The Reapers never intended to have anyone steal and use one of their IFF units; that didn't stop them from booby trapping the crap out of them. Everything we have seen of the Reapers to date shows that they are virtually addicted to contingency planning and booby traps, and that they go to extreme and extremely diabolical lengths to minimize any risk that "lesser" species might ever learn too much about their tech or turn it against them. So to proceed from the assumption that the CB, a factory that actually makes Reapers, would neglect to have any such internal defenses is more or less suicidally foolish.

You do raise a good point that the Reapers do seem to be crazy about contingencies, but let's take a good long look at the defense they've prepared for the CB.  3 or 4 occulai and a single vessel (presumably) to take care of any vessel that got through the O-4 relay.  This strikes me as somewhat pathetic, designed not to deal with anyone properly prepared for going through, but to deal with the odd ship that manages to land in the safe zone without an IFF.  Then we come to the base itself which EDI points out has no internal sensors.  We also come accross no fixed defenses or defensible positions of any kind.  The base seems woefully unprepared for anyone getting that far.  So why would they not have a contingency for hostiles getting on-board the base but have one prepared should they take it over?  Now maybe this is just Bioware being sloppy in trying to explain why you don't have every Collector in the base waiting for you the minute you walk in, but I'm inclined to believe it was intentional to illustrate the CB as safe (though perhaps that's just wishfull thinking).

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is irrelevant. The collector base would not need indoctrination capabilities because the collectors were engineered and anything not already aligned with the reapers was never supposed to set foot on it. Reapers are meant to be used to transport organics and indoctrinate them for their own purposes like Sovereign did with Saren.

It's perfectly relevant. Every piece of intact reaper technology we've encountered has been capable of indoctrination. To assume the Collector Base is incapable of indoctrination based on the idea that the collectors aren't prepared is foolhardy at best.

EDI has intact Reaper technology. Does she indoctrinate?

The Reaper IFF, for all that it had a trap function that was quickly mitigated, did it indoctrinate?

The Thannix is Reaper technology. Are we being indoctrinated by our own Reaper-technology gun?

The Collector Particle Beam weapon we can pick up is Reaper technology. Is Shepard indoctrinated by that?

Was anyone experiencing the tel-tale signs of Indoctrinations (visions, whispers, presence in their head) onboard the Collector Cruiser?

[lord vaalic]

You will develop along the paths we desire

[Pro_Consul]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

@ OP. Paragons never kept it, my Renegade will. (Haven't finished my Renegade playthrough)

Reasoning? My Paragons will win through galactic unity, while my Renegade will win through superior firepower.

Honestly, IMHO, if the Reaper IFF nearly got you killed, I'd say the Collector Base is a disaster waiting to happen...

This is a false dichotomy that too many people try to fall back on. Saving the collector base does not prevent galactic unity. Anyone who thinks so is making huge assumptions.

You are responding to a point he didn't make. He never said that saving the base will prevent his alternate plans from working. He merely said that since he already has another plan that he doesn't NEED the base, and therefore doesn't want to hazard the risks associated with keeping it.

Inverness Moon wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

All of the Collectors' advanced technology was supplied by the reapers, including a base capable of surviving the galactic core.

That is irrelevant. The collector base would not need indoctrination capabilities because the collectors were engineered and anything not already aligned with the reapers was never supposed to set foot on it. Reapers are meant to be used to transport organics and indoctrinate them for their own purposes like Sovereign did with Saren.

This argument has already been shot down in flames. You are saying that because the Reapers never intended organics to set foot on the CB that it therefore cannot have indoc tech in it. Baloney! Will repeat again, in case you missed the first 18 pages of this thread: the Reapers never meant organics to get their hands on an intact Reaper IFF, either, but that didn't stop them from booby trapping the crap of them. We also know that Dragon's Teeth are capable of indoctrination, and it is all but a certainty that the Collectors have them aboard that base, since there is nowhere else their battalion of human-based husks could have come from. So not only is the argument that they would neglect putting indoc defenses shot down by logic, it is also directly contradicted by Shep's own experiences with the Collectors.

[Ryzaki]

It would have been interesting if the husks you fought on the CB weren't normal humanoid husks. They were husks but you had no clue of what the hell they were.

And then later on it's revealed that it was the last civilization that had "captured" the CB and decided to keep it.

Maybe Prothean husks because I wonder what those look like. 

Edit: Ignore my ramblings. 

But really explosion animation looks so much more epic than radiation one. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 février 2011 - 08:44 .

[RAF1940]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
That is irrelevant. The collector base would not need indoctrination capabilities because the collectors were engineered and anything not already aligned with the reapers was never supposed to set foot on it. Reapers are meant to be used to transport organics and indoctrinate them for their own purposes like Sovereign did with Saren.

It's perfectly relevant. Every piece of intact reaper technology we've encountered has been capable of indoctrination. To assume the Collector Base is incapable of indoctrination based on the idea that the collectors aren't prepared is foolhardy at best.

EDI has intact Reaper technology. Does she indoctrinate?

The Reaper IFF, for all that it had a trap function that was quickly mitigated, did it indoctrinate?

The Thannix is Reaper technology. Are we being indoctrinated by our own Reaper-technology gun?

The Collector Particle Beam weapon we can pick up is Reaper technology. Is Shepard indoctrinated by that?

Was anyone experiencing the tel-tale signs of Indoctrinations (visions, whispers, presence in their head) onboard the Collector Cruiser?

Great points.

[Pro_Consul]

DPSSOC wrote...
Ruins, ruins, ruins...not ringing any bells.  Are you talking about that one colony that got husked or the survey team in the Hades Gamma cluster (though this could be the underground chamber but I don't recall DT)?  It's been a while since I played ME1.

There was one underground chamber full of Dragon's Teeth which was discovered by a mining team on one colony world. It indoctrinated the entire local population (which was of course really small) and compelled them to turn themselves into husks. Or possibly it indoc'ed the initial team that found the chamber and then used them to force the rest, impossible to say which. There was also a set of ruins that is also full of husks, but which was accessible from the surface without any mining tunnels to get to it. In the first chamber of the ruins there was a note warning anyone who had gotten that far to RUN AWAY. Shortly thereafter Shep's squad started running into husks coming out the wood..er..stonework. Going deeper in they discover an ancient device which they think is doing all the indoctrinating, so Shep destroys it and leaves. (Sorry for all the mixed tenses: too lazy to fix it.)

DPSSOC wrote...
As far as Virmire that wasn't a Reaper facility, that was a facility with a Reaper parked at it.  The indoctrination came from Sovereign, the facility was just the controlled environment to observe the effects.

This one is definitely debatable, granted. It could be that Sov was doing all the indoctrinating, but that seems unlikely to me for two reasons:

1. If present, Sov would certainly be aware of the fact that Saren was researching indoctrination trying to find a way to grant himself immunity to it. Presumably Sov would not have permitted this research to take place if it knew about it. And for sure Sovereign had no reason to be interested in researching its own indoctrination ability, since it certainly already knows far more about it than Saren's little science team is ever going to figure out. So it seems unlikely that Sov was actually there all that much, and thus there is a reasonable explanation for why it didn't put an end to the research.

2. We know that Sov was doing other things during this time span, though we by no means can account for most of it, but it seems unlikely to me that Sov was just sitting around lounging at Virmire.

So, if for either or both of these reasons we hypothesize that Sov wasn't there much, then that requires that the source of the indoctrination be within the base itself. And since Sov presumably provided many of the resources to build it and was in command of the entire force which did the building, there is every reason to assume it might have included some way to keep indoctrinating the puny mortals working there even when it itself was not  present. But as I said, your point about Virmire can also be argued so I guess we will just have to proceed without using Virmire as a case for either position.

DPSSOC wrote...
You do raise a good point that the Reapers do seem to be crazy about contingencies, but let's take a good long look at the defense they've prepared for the CB.  **snip**  So why would they not have a contingency for hostiles getting on-board the base but have one prepared should they take it over?  Now maybe this is just Bioware being sloppy in trying to explain why you don't have every Collector in the base waiting for you the minute you walk in, but I'm inclined to believe it was intentional to illustrate the CB as safe (though perhaps that's just wishfull thinking).

It seems very much like intentional nerfing by BW in order to give Shep's mission some chance of success. Some nerfing along these lines is necessary, since they have invested so much time and writing effort into portraying how obscenely powerful, advanced and diabolically smart the Reapers are.

But as I pointed out in my next most recent post in this thread, the Collectors' possession of all those husks, which we know from in game dialogue were based on humans and were more advanced than the ones used by the heretics in ME1, means they MUST have had a supply of Dragon's Teeth, and were very likely manufacturing them and making design improvements tailored toward their efficiency with human subjects. And we know that Teeth have indoctrination ability built into them. Now where is the most likely place for these more advanced Teeth to have been kept, used and possibly even manufactured? To my thinking the only viable suspect is the Collector Base.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[LordShrike]

Whoa, better to give up your opinions and board down your points of view, Pro_consul is here to prove you wrong! X)

And doing a good job at it from what i see here. (nods in approval.)

Somehow keeping the collector base never seemed a good idea so i blew it up. And since i have only one import Paragon FemShep it's going to be what it is. Not playing two ME games AGAIN just to see the out come of keeping it. (Old box did the fritz on me and killed all my import saves. Snif.) Maybe when the ME3 comes out i'll have the strenght to make import chars AGAIN.

[ReluctantMind]

It is silly to dismiss the valid concern about indoctrination just because there are pieces of Reaper tech that don't indoctrinate. Maybe this concern can be addressed, maybe not, but there are plenty of other reasons keeping the base is problematic. Despite the fact that I have the only ship capable of navigating the Omega 4 relay I can only hand it to Cerberus. Shepard is forced to make plenty of assumptions about what the effects of his decisions will be, but I don't think it is a big stretch to assume Cerberus' desire to use the base to assure human dominance will negatively impact efforts to unite the various species against the Reapers. And this information will quickly get out. Look at the number of humans and various aliens aboard the Normandy. Someone will be letting the various non-human governments know what the pro-human Cerberus group is sitting on and why they don't want to share. Unless Shepard is planning on putting a bullet in the head of every non-Cerberus crew member for security reasons (now that's Renegade).

[Inverness Moon]

Pro_Consul wrote...

You are responding to a point he didn't make. He never said that saving the base will prevent his alternate plans from working. He merely said that since he already has another plan that he doesn't NEED the base, and therefore doesn't want to hazard the risks associated with keeping it.

That is not much better in my eyes.

Have you heard of that saying that no plan survives contact with the enemy? Considering how little we know about the reapers other than it takes an entire fleet to destroy a single one, it's utter foolishness to rely on one plan. Any and all avenues should be pursued simultaneously.

This argument has already been shot down in flames. You are saying that because the Reapers never intended organics to set foot on the CB that it therefore cannot have indoc tech in it. Baloney! Will repeat again, in case you missed the first 18 pages of this thread: the Reapers never meant organics to get their hands on an intact Reaper IFF, either, but that didn't stop them from booby trapping the crap of them.

The reapers were designed to go into battle with organics and have organic crews in order to indoctrinate them. Indoctrination is not a fast process and it makes sense to me to place a virus in the IFF just in case they're somehow attacked and disabled whether it is from the inside or outside. The reapers know they're not invincible, but they're still very powerful.

If you think they stuck a virus in the IFF just because then I completely disagree.

We also know that Dragon's Teeth are capable of indoctrination, and it is all but a certainty that the Collectors have them aboard that base, since there is nowhere else their battalion of human-based husks could have come from. So not only is the argument that they would neglect putting indoc defenses shot down by logic, it is also directly contradicted by Shep's own experiences with the Collectors.

Yes, and because we know dragon's teeth can indoctrinate, any found in the collector base can be easily identified and destroyed.

The dragon's teeth have a specific purpose and it's really not surprising that they can indoctrinate. That however, doesn't support the nonsensical idea that every bit of reaper technology, including their metaphorical toasters, can indoctrinate. The reaper IFF itself, although dangerous, easily disproves that.

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
EDI has intact Reaper technology. Does she indoctrinate?

The Reaper IFF, for all that it had a trap function that was quickly mitigated, did it indoctrinate?

The Thannix is Reaper technology. Are we being indoctrinated by our own Reaper-technology gun?

The Collector Particle Beam weapon we can pick up is Reaper technology. Is Shepard indoctrinated by that?

Was anyone experiencing the tel-tale signs of Indoctrinations (visions, whispers, presence in their head) onboard the Collector Cruiser?

You were on board the Collector Cruiser for a half hour, tops. That's not long enough. The other things you've mentioned aren't even close to the scale of a reaper or a collector base, or a giant orb whose only function is to indoctrinate.

[Inverness Moon]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
EDI has intact Reaper technology. Does she indoctrinate?

The Reaper IFF, for all that it had a trap function that was quickly mitigated, did it indoctrinate?

The Thannix is Reaper technology. Are we being indoctrinated by our own Reaper-technology gun?

The Collector Particle Beam weapon we can pick up is Reaper technology. Is Shepard indoctrinated by that?

Was anyone experiencing the tel-tale signs of Indoctrinations (visions, whispers, presence in their head) onboard the Collector Cruiser?

You were on board the Collector Cruiser for a half hour, tops. That's not long enough. The other things you've mentioned aren't even close to the scale of a reaper or a collector base, or a giant orb whose only function is to indoctrinate.

What makes you think scale is relevant? As it has already been pointed out, dragon's teeth can indoctrinate.

So then, with your logic, as long as everyone that entered the collector base only stayed inside for a half hour to grab small things they could easily transport, then indoctrination would not be a concern?

Anyhow, no matter your response to that, Dean has easily disproved your claim that every bit of reaper technology indoctrinates.