586 réponses à ce sujet

[ReluctantMind]

Has it been stated in any in-game sources that Dragon's Teeth indoctrinate? The Geth were using them to create husks and we saw them as the source of husks in multiple other situations in both ME 1 and ME2, but that is not the same thing as indoctrination.

[Sentox6]

Everyone will have different subjective weightings when evaluating the possibilities. The dangers posed by the base itself (such as indoctrination), and the concern of Cerberus' ultimate intentions are valid concerns. I'm not ignoring them, I'm just saying that in my opinion, these possibilities pale in comparison to the clear and proven threat of the Reapers. A race so powerful that an entire fleet sustained serious losses in the struggle to destroy one of them. One.

Others may feel that the possible dangers of keeping the base are more threatening than the benefits that might be derived from studying the technology. Risk and reward.

There are invalid reasons for destroying the base though, like preserving the 'soul' of our species; primitive superstition and ignorant self-righteous moralisation. Also, I'm fairly sure that some people are at least subconsciously metagaming and assuming victory when they choose to destroy the base.

Modifié par Sentox6, 12 février 2011 - 10:49 .

[Inverness Moon]

Sentox6 wrote...

Everyone will have different subjective weightings when evaluating the possibilities. The dangers posed by the base itself (such as indoctrination), and the concern of Cerberus' ultimate intentions are valid concerns. I'm not ignoring them, I'm just saying that in my opinion, these possibilities pale in comparison to the clear and proven threat of the Reapers. A race so powerful that an entire fleet sustained serious losses in the struggle to destroy one of them. One.

Others may feel that the possible dangers of keeping the base are more threatening than the benefits that might be derived from studying the technology. Risk and reward.

There are invalid reasons for destroying the base though, like preserving the 'soul' of our species; primitive superstition and ignorant self-righteous moralisation. Also, I'm fairly sure that some people are at least subconsciously metagaming and assuming victory when they choose to destroy the base.

I completely agree with this.

I also know there are many who think they can win through galactic unity rather than using the collector base. These people seem to assume that some galactic alliance fleet will be able to stand a chance against the full force of the reapers even though they have no idea how many there are. How do they know there isn't a reaper for every frigate, cruiser, and dreadnought that could be assembled?

If we assume one reaper was created every 50,000 years since the time the derelict reaper was destroyed, then, excluding the collectors, that would mean 739 reapers. We don't have 739 fleets around the galaxy to throw at the reapers, but some people will go on thinking Galactic Unity™ will do the trick.

[Pro_Consul]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

You are responding to a point he didn't make. He never said that saving the base will prevent his alternate plans from working. He merely said that since he already has another plan that he doesn't NEED the base, and therefore doesn't want to hazard the risks associated with keeping it.

That is not much better in my eyes.

Have you heard of that saying that no plan survives contact with the enemy? Considering how little we know about the reapers other than it takes an entire fleet to destroy a single one, it's utter foolishness to rely on one plan. Any and all avenues should be pursued simultaneously.

Never said his overall logic was sound.     Just that it was different from what you apparently thought it was.

The reapers were designed to go into battle with organics and have organic crews in order to indoctrinate them.

Says who? Where in the entire MEverse does any credible source state that Reapers were designed to need any kind of crew at all? Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say here?

Indoctrination is not a fast process and it makes sense to me to place a virus in the IFF just in case they're somehow attacked and disabled whether it is from the inside or outside. The reapers know they're not invincible, but they're still very powerful.

Actually we do not know how fast indoc can be. We know that it was slow with Saren, but Saren himself hypothesized that this was only because Sov was intentionally trying to leave some of his intellectual independence intact. But contact was lost VERY quickly with Dr. Chandana's team, and in their logs and stuff the only sign we saw of something being amiss was the evidence of them succumbing to indoctrination. I wish it had been more specific about timeframe, but it seems to be implying that it might begin to have negative effects in as little as a day.

The dragon's teeth have a specific purpose and it's really not surprising that they can indoctrinate. That however, doesn't support the nonsensical idea that every bit of reaper technology, including their metaphorical toasters, can indoctrinate.

Never meant to imply that it did, and sorry if I gave you that impression. You will notice, if you look back once more, that I was not one of those who was saying that any and all Reaper tech could indoctrinate. I was, however, saying that so far every single Reaper facility we have come across could and did indoctrinate. Also that Reapers seem to love booby-trapping their tech.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 11:26 .

[Wulfram]

Cerberus using any tech found for crazy evil stuff is pretty much a certainty, assuming they don't all get indoctrinated. There being tech which can be of significant use for fighting the reapers is quite dubious. It's not like the Collectors were particularly powerful.

[Pro_Consul]

Sentox6 wrote...

Everyone will have different subjective weightings when evaluating the possibilities. The dangers posed by the base itself (such as indoctrination), and the concern of Cerberus' ultimate intentions are valid concerns. *snip*

Others may feel that the possible dangers of keeping the base are more threatening than the benefits that might be derived from studying the technology. Risk and reward.

There are invalid reasons for destroying the base though, like preserving the 'soul' of our species; primitive superstition and ignorant self-righteous moralisation. Also, I'm fairly sure that some people are at least subconsciously metagaming and assuming victory when they choose to destroy the base.

I have to agree 100% with all of this.

Snipped portion from above....

I'm not ignoring them, I'm just saying that in my opinion, these possibilities
pale in comparison to the clear and proven threat of the Reapers. A
race so powerful that an entire fleet sustained serious losses in the
struggle to destroy one of them. One.

Only one small caveat here: that "One"  Reaper was accompanied by a honking big fleet of Geth warships, and that fact should not be ignored. The fact that Sov felt the need to have such accompaniment as a prerequisite for attacking the Citadel argues that perhaps one Reaper is not nearly so invincible as Sov would like us to believe.

Edit: In fact, we never see any indication that Sov was ever even exposed to the main gun of the Destiny Ascension. From what we are shown of the battle it looks like the Geth warships swarmed the DA to put it fully on the defensive and keep it from interfering with Sovereign itself. In fact, the DA was about to be or was blown (depending on Shep's choices), but it was clearly the Geth who were doing that. As near as we can tell Sov never even fired on it. It might very well be that the jumbonious main gun of an Asari or Turian DN is powerful enough to do some real damage to a Reaper, and perhaps Sov knew this.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 11:31 .

[Inverness Moon]

Pro_Consul wrote...

The reapers were designed to go into battle with organics and have organic crews in order to indoctrinate them.

Says who? Where in the entire MEverse does any credible source state that Reapers were designed to use any kind of crew at all? Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say here?

First of all, Saren and Benezia and the rest of them crewed Sovereign and were slowly indoctrinated by it. That was obviously intentional on Sovereign's part. Let's not forget that the reapers used indoctrinate to great effect against the protheans. Then there are the recordings from the Cerberus scientists that suggest the interior design of the reaper assisted with the indoctrination somehow.

All in all I think it is reasonable to assume that reapers were designed with indoctrinating organic crews in mind.

Indoctrination is not a fast process and it makes sense to me to place a virus in the IFF just in case they're somehow attacked and disabled whether it is from the inside or outside. The reapers know they're not invincible, but they're still very powerful.

Actually we do not know how fast indoc can be. We know that it was slow with Saren, but Saren himself hypothesized that this was only because Sov was intentionally trying to leave some of his intellectual independence intact. But contact was lost VERY quickly with Dr. Chandana's team, and in their logs and stuff the only sign we saw of something being amiss was the evidence of them succumbing to indoctrination. I wish it had been more specific about timeframe, but it seems to be implying that it might begin to have negative affects in as little as a day.

Okay, but that doesn't address my main points.

The dragon's teeth have a specific purpose and it's really not surprising that they can indoctrinate. That however, doesn't support the nonsensical idea that every bit of reaper technology, including their metaphorical toasters, can indoctrinate.

Never meant to imply that it did, and sorry if I gave you that impression. You will notice, if you look back once more, that I was not one of those who was saying that any and all Reaper tech could indoctrinate. I was, however, saying that so far every single Reaper facility we have come across could and did indoctrinate. Also that Reapers seem to love booby-trapping their tech.

And how many reaper facilities have we come across exactly? Only the collector ship, collector base, and the derelict reaper come to mind. There has been no evidence that the collector facilities can indoctrinate, and it's already been explained that there is no need to indoctrinate collectors.

The Citadel is built by reapers and certainly doesn't indoctrinate, though the Council makes me wonder if that might not be the case.

[Inverness Moon]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Only one small caveat here: that "One"  Reaper was accompanied by a honking big fleet of Geth warships, and that fact should not be ignored. The fact that Sov felt the need to have such accompaniment as a prerequisite for attacking the Citadel argues that perhaps one Reaper is not nearly so invincible as Sov would like us to believe.

Of course they're not invincable. But as I pointed out before, it apparently took a whole Alliance fleet to destroy Sovereign. If every reaper takes an entire fleet to destroy then we're in trouble.

[Pro_Consul]

Inverness Moon wrote...

And how many reaper facilities have we come across exactly? Only the collector ship, collector base, and the derelict reaper come to mind. There has been no evidence that the collector facilities can indoctrinate, and it's already been explained that there is no need to indoctrinate collectors.

Already asked and answered twice in this thread. There are two, and possibly three, other Reaper facilities in ME1, and both (or all) of them indoctrinated the people who investigated them.

Inverness Moon wrote...

The Citadel is built by reapers and certainly doesn't indoctrinate, though the Council makes me wonder if that might not be the case.

As we already know from ME1, the Citadel is a trap of a very different sort. But a trap it most certainly is: the single largest booby trap in known MEverse history.

[James2912]

Jeesh this topic has been resolved, there are smart safe ways to use the collector base as I've posted in past pages. The only bone of contention is will TIM use them? Anti TIM people say no, pro TIM people say yes. I wish people would read past posts, it seems the conversation is just going backward.

[Pro_Consul]

ReluctantMind wrote...

Has it been stated in any in-game sources that Dragon's Teeth indoctrinate? The Geth were using them to create husks and we saw them as the source of husks in multiple other situations in both ME 1 and ME2, but that is not the same thing as indoctrination.

In ME1 Shep comes across a mining facility where the colonists had found some Teeth and were indoctrinated into turning themselves (or each other) into husks, just as happened on the derelict Reaper. There was not Geth or other race present that imposed this fate on them; they were merely unlucky enough to stumble onto a chamber of an ancient, buried Reaper facility and did not know to stay away from the menacing spike thingummies.

[Inverness Moon]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Already asked and answered twice in this thread. There are two, and possibly three, other Reaper facilities in ME1, and both (or all) of them indoctrinated the people who investigated them.

I'm not going to look back through 19 pages of thread.

Are these reaper facilities or facilities with dragon's teeth or other reaper technology in them?

Inverness Moon wrote...

The Citadel is built by reapers and certainly doesn't indoctrinate, though the Council makes me wonder if that might not be the case.

As we already know from ME1, the Citadel is a trap of a very different sort. But a trap it most certainly is: the single largest booby trap in known MEverse history.

The Citadel is still a reaper facility that doesn't indoctrinate, and with good reason.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

I wish people would read past posts, it seems the conversation is just going backward.

Yeah, and it seems to be a tightening spiral, with fewer and fewer posts between instances of someone coming along and reraising already established stuff as if it were new to the thread. Ah well. Forums: whaddya gonna do?

[Pro_Consul]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I'm not going to look back through 19 pages of thread.

If you aren't even going to bother reading the thread before jumping in to reply to the posts in it, then you should expect to be out of context and downright wrong quite frequently. And you should not be overly sensitive when people call you out for repeating points already dealt with earlier in the thread.

Are these reaper facilities or facilities with dragon's teeth or other reaper technology in them?

One of them has Teeth; the other (or other 2 depending on your count) do(es) not have Teeth but do(es) have other Reaper tech.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 12 février 2011 - 11:46 .

[Inverness Moon]

Pro_Consul wrote...

If you aren't even going to bother reading the thread before jumping in to reply to the posts in it, then you should expect to be out of context and downright wrong quite frequently. And you should not be overly sensitive when people call you out for repeating points already dealt with earlier in the thread.

Don't give me that spiel about not reading the thread. The first post was 28 days ago. I expect neither you nor anyone else to remember what was said on the first page nor do I expect you or anyone else to constantly go back and check.

One of them has Teeth; the other (or other 2 depending on your count) do(es) not have Teeth but do(es) have other Reaper tech.

Well there is quite the difference between reaper facilities and facilities with reaper technology in them. Any facility with dragon's teeth in it could be dangerous.

I can think of no other facilities that would have inherent indoctrination abilities built in other than the reapers themselves.

[LordShrike]

Nazara went all out on hacking the Citadel, the Heretics were there to deal with fleet. Seems to me Nazara did not even care about the ships around it. Falls in line with the barriers dropping when Shep killed Saren, like it had invested lot of "brain power" to getting that fight won, since it could not physically actually do anything to the Citadel relay without risking damage to critical systems. Keep in mind that had it won the fight Reapers would had poured right to the fight. So it was all or nothing to Nazara at that point, having shown its hand. And it placed its priorities in getting the Reapers to Citadel with out conserning itself with the fleet around it. Needless to say that bite it in the ###. Seems odd tho. Why not just kill the fleet and then do the magic? Maybe it wanted just get the job done? Not like it tought Shep to be any threat beforehand... (Maybe it was supposed to get paid when the job was done?)
EDIT: Context killed by misplacement due to fast thread, Criminy it's fast.

Modifié par LordShrike, 13 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[Sentox6]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Only one small caveat here: that "One"  Reaper was accompanied by a honking big fleet of Geth warships, and that fact should not be ignored. The fact that Sov felt the need to have such accompaniment as a prerequisite for attacking the Citadel argues that perhaps one Reaper is not nearly so invincible as Sov would like us to believe.

True enough; obviously a Reaper is not invincible. Still, there's two points to consider.

1) Sovereign wasn't just attacking the Citadel, he essentially parked up on it and became immobile. So he was obviously placing himself in a much more vulnerable position than a regular engagement.

2) The energy expended to reanimate Saren was a major factor in his shields failing (see the developer post in this old thread - fifth entry), which was what allowed the Normandy to actually do damage.

Modifié par Sentox6, 13 février 2011 - 12:29 .

[Pro_Consul]

Sentox6 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Only one small caveat here: that "One"  Reaper was accompanied by a honking big fleet of Geth warships, and that fact should not be ignored. The fact that Sov felt the need to have such accompaniment as a prerequisite for attacking the Citadel argues that perhaps one Reaper is not nearly so invincible as Sov would like us to believe.

True enough; obviously a Reaper is not invincible. Still, there's two points to consider.

1) Sovereign wasn't just attacking the Citadel, he essentially parked up on it and became immobile. So he was obviously placing himself in a much more vulnerable position than a regular engagement.

2) The energy expended to reanimate Sovereign was a major factor in his shields failing (see the developer post in this old thread - fifth entry), which was what allowed the Normandy to actually do damage.

Good points. And I know you meant to say "reanimate Saren" in point #2.

[Sentox6]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Good points. And I know you meant to say "reanimate Saren" in point #2.

They both begin with 'S', right  I love it when, no matter how many times you reread what you've written, your brain still substitutes what's supposed to be there.

Modifié par Sentox6, 13 février 2011 - 12:32 .

[Arijharn]

Pro_Consul wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
And you know what? There has never been a known instance of anyone being indoctrinated by a piece of blown up  Reaper facility. And there has never been a known instance of researchers NOT being indoctrinated by an intact  Reaper facility.

 
There has never been a known instance of researchers being in an intact Reaper facility.  The DR was a Reaper, it wasn't a space station they built it was a fully intact, if inoperative, Reaper.  Near as we can tell nobody has been indoctrinated by the recovered bits of Sovereign so we're probably safe.  The Reapers have no reason to install indoctrination devices into the base, they never intended anyone to get that far.

These points were raised earlier in the thread, but I'll go ahead and repeat the responses I gave then.

First, other Reaper facilities: Shep personally saw three in ME1, the ruins with the indoc machine and husks; the underground chamber with the Dragon's Teeth and more husks; and Saren's base on Virmire - all three had indoc tech active in them. As for recovered bits of Sov, you are making my point for me: researching blown up remains is the only method that has worked safely to date.

And now we get to the assumption that the Reapers would ignore internal base defenses because they "never intended anyone to get that far".  No offense is intended, but there is just no nice way to say this: that is an idiotic assumption to proceed from. The Reapers never intended to have anyone steal and use one of their IFF units; that didn't stop them from booby trapping the crap out of them. Everything we have seen of the Reapers to date shows that they are virtually addicted to contingency planning and booby traps, and that they go to extreme and extremely diabolical lengths to minimize any risk that "lesser" species might ever learn too much about their tech or turn it against them. So to proceed from the assumption that the CB, a factory that actually makes Reapers, would neglect to have any such internal defenses is more or less suicidally foolish.

I don't think it's that stupid of a theory to say that there is no indoctrination devices on board, other than what's represented by the Reaper larva itself. You know why? Because the Collector's are already Indoctrinated. They're indoctrinated as soon as they're 'born' or grown or however it is that they're made. It's not like they're born Protheans still and then get mind wiped and then genetically re-engineered (and if they were -- then that would be a plot twist that I would never have seen coming). They're probably indoctrinated by implants or something they receive as soon as they leave their pods or whatever (or while still inside them), but that doesn't mean no precautions can't be taken. Indoctrination is quantifiable effect, it isn't arcane magic that just works.

All that pales into insignificance really considering we have a Reaper in our basement, and quite frankly, the sooner we start to see how it's put together, the sooner we can start thinking of ways to attack it efficiently.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that we haven't actually truly defeated a Reaper once yet, despite the fact that we've fought two of them. The Reaper Larva was unfinished (thus, how can you say with any certainty what it's full operational capability would be like other than the catch all 'devastating') and honestly the only way the 5th Fleet managed to down Sovereign was from a stroke of sheer dumb luck (aka; Shephard killing his convenient Avatar in the tower). On the face of this, I can't just assume everything will be a-ok... maybe you can, but to me that isn't effective strategy, that's just wishful thinking to the point of someone's head is in the clouds.

Modifié par Arijharn, 13 février 2011 - 03:29 .

[Sajuro]

Pro_Consul wrote...

ReluctantMind wrote...

Has it been stated in any in-game sources that Dragon's Teeth indoctrinate? The Geth were using them to create husks and we saw them as the source of husks in multiple other situations in both ME 1 and ME2, but that is not the same thing as indoctrination.

In ME1 Shep comes across a mining facility where the colonists had found some Teeth and were indoctrinated into turning themselves (or each other) into husks, just as happened on the derelict Reaper. There was not Geth or other race present that imposed this fate on them; they were merely unlucky enough to stumble onto a chamber of an ancient, buried Reaper facility and did not know to stay away from the menacing spike thingummies.

I think that shrine might have been the indoctrination device, it looks like a small version of what the Geth had.

[LordShrike]

Sajuro Said:

"*snip* I think that shrine might have been the indoctrination device, it looks like a small version of what the Geth had."

Oh, i tought the colonist built it themselves since it looked like it had been made of rocks or something and the light thing at the center was a ceiling light...(No, i did not have obsession over it. Much.) That is another way to look at it i suppose... Talking about the Feros tower Shrine thing right? Does the indoctrination include Religious elements? That would be bad... Reaper worship as a legitimate religion... Machine Cults were mentioned at some point in that cave mission was it not? Seemed like a arbitrary thing at the time. Now it sound more serious.

Way to self-hype, Me! XP

[Sajuro]

LordShrike wrote...

Sajuro Said:
"*snip* I think that shrine might have been the indoctrination device, it looks like a small version of what the Geth had."
Oh, i tought the colonist built it themselves since it looked like it had been made of rocks or something and the light thing at the center was a ceiling light...(No, i did not have obsession over it. Much.) That is another way to look at it i suppose... Talking about the Feros tower Shrine thing right? Does the indoctrination include Religious elements? That would be bad... Reaper worship as a legitimate religion... Machine Cults were mentioned at some point in that cave mission was it not? Seemed like a arbitrary thing at the time. Now it sound more serious.
Way to self-hype, Me! XP

Hm, It looked more like a full ball of light to me, will have to check again.
Though the Reapers may not have intended it, the cult would probably be a side effect of indoctrination, it would also fit in with the Cthulhu Mythos in which the Elder Gods have their own death cults. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware never came out and said it directly that the Reapers use religion as a weapon, lest Faux News accuse them of saying Christianity is a lie set up by the cuttlefish to destroy us all.

[LordShrike]

@ Sajuro:

I think Cthulhu might take an offense to being reffed to these upstart Reapers and do something nasty to them to make a point.(Seriously, Who these "Reapers" think they are? Even the name is not original...) Or the reapers are Cthulhu's little side project... That would be REALLY bad. (What? Can't a ageless horror have an side project?) loltastic.

True about the IRL thingö. Religion might have worked as an subversive tactic, think it's too late for that... Tho Vergil's description had some undertones that feel right for it to have happened during the "Reap", now that i think about it...

[Sajuro]

@LordShrike

Worse, in ME universe Cthulhu is (or at least was inspired by) was caused by a Reaper who was destroyed in its Alt Mode (Basically its Core like the baby Reaper) around the time of the K/T line mass extinction.

I don't think it would be too late for it, if they started sending out indoctrinating devices, they could have small cults subverting the resistance efforts since the majority of people still don't know the Reapers exist. Also they might get some quislings who decide to follow the Reapers hoping that will mitigate their chances of being killed.